how many of you here can ride like this

[Guest mrdogboy]

astrokel

You ride ?

(notice your AVTAR)

check out my site, I've been track riding for 9 years now www.gasngears.com

-lee www.gasngears.com

[Guest mrdogboy]

NateW-

I'm on a White Kunckle Carver, and it has the side cuts and I can agree with twhat your saying.. however, I'm getting a Aluflex from scott Gordon this spring and that think is a ROCKET and stable, it might be what you need to get to the ground.. I have ran my fingers on the ground, but the board does get unsable... Maybe the clean up with the Aluflex will make it possible...

I also, noticed in the videos and reading that the extreme guys use to carver to a stop, just joking around before they applied it to the slope, I'm thinking maybe I'll test that way.... don't try for the transition right away, just go for the crash first.

-lee

[philfell]

"The reason it looks harder is because when you lay on the snow, it appears (to a casual observer) that you've gone too far down and are actually using the snow for support (like a kind of crutch). "

This is correct. Watch some of the EC vids. Some turns are clean others you can see the guys bounce because they flop their bodies down so hard. In my opinion this isn't fun or clean.

[skywalker]

how many of you can ride like this[/Quote] [...]how many of us didn't even succeed in answering this question[...]

ooops, something disappeared here ;). So very sorry for the maybe not totally correct quote!

Thanks, exactly my thoughts!

I just counted them as a "me not", otherwise it would have been hard to stay cool about that... ;)

[Bordy]

I wish so many of you would go out and learn to EC then come back and look at the people who are not into the EC style and re think your out looks. Evey one who really is not into the EC turn tend to be ripping riders who have the EC turn under there belt and have been bored with it for a very long time.

Lets look at three of the folks who posted , big deal why bother, responses.

Tilledog. Ripping alpine rider who has ridden the Swoard….EC style with laid out ripping turns and came to the conclusion that he enjoys a turn with out massive amounts of friction and drag through the middle of the turn generally causing some board bounce and chatter with the reduction of edge pressure caused by the distribution of weight on the snow and not on the edge. Dave was once a racer and had experienced the Laid out style of turn now labled the EC turn before the style was even labeled as EC. He also is my partner at Hardbooter.com and perhaps has one of the biggest stokes for hard booting this side of the Mississippi. Dave and I have put out hundreds of riders on hard boots and share the love of the sport with many more people then most hardbooters ever even see.

Phil Fell. Once Pro racer turned coach Phil has been on the hardboot scene since the early 90s Phil has grown and evolved with the sport receiving much of his knowledge and Ideas by training and working with U.S. team coaches and team members that he shares a great working relationship with currently. Phil is not only my personal coach but has been the staple Alpine coach in Park City for numerous years and is consistently asked to travel with World Cup athletes and provide them with coaching. He is a respected member or the Noram and Grand Prix official staff and has been the chief course setter, referee or official at the highest level races in North America. Any and all high level alpine snowboard athletes in North America know and love Phil and would listen to his Ideas with open ears. Phil has also ridden the Swoard EC style and has perfected any and all alpine turns well before the EC web site or promotion started. The layed out turn was just an Old trick Phil had to pull out of his bag not a new style he had to perfect.

Kent.. Is one of the only other coaches to take the time to post on Bomber , (Our friend Chuck AKA Dragon Fly Jones being the only other real coach to post here). Also a very creditable source while Kent works with a large amount of talented Mid West athletes he also has plenty of time to work on his own riding skills. Kent at one point was a competing athlete him self and has been involved in the Hardbooting world since the days of the Five whole pattern. He like many riders has watched the sport develop and has all the knowledge necessary to make any comment he would like based on true real world experience. I have no Idea if Kent has ever ridden a Swoard but I can insure you he has made EC style turn long before the EC web site made the laid out turn cool.

Now its my turn to kick in. I would love to really go on the attack hear at start pointing out that it is riders who can make the EC style of turn( and make laid out EC turns well !!!) who are putting it down, these are riders who do help the sport grow and have been sharing the stoke of hard booting as a Job for decades.

They share the same out look many experienced long term riders do.

The EC turn is just one style of turn and perhaps the easiest Laid out turn to make, it involves a low level of skill and commitment and is very easy to practice and become proficient at. Any upper level rider should have developed this skill as there riding progressed and most have had an EC style turn under there belt after a few years of turning.

The EC web site has done a great job of Pimping the style and were the first to document and provide stills and video about the laid out turn, they where also the first site to outline a teaching style for the laid out turn as well as a wider board shape. All very wonderful contributions to the hardbooting world but still only a little tiny piece of the skills necessary to be a well rounded rider.

To most recreational riders this EC style is more then they will ever need, it provides the thrill and speed necessary to provide the rider with a great day of riding. Plus many recreational riders are looking for as much edge angle as possible and the EC style brings all of the edge angle a World cup Athlete rails out but with only a little bit of the correct inputs necessary, What a rush for the rider and from the chair it totally looks like a blast. This must be the kick in the pants Alpine need to grow, right.....

No not really, the EC style has lots of draw backs once you have mastered it. Or if you are already a ripper the slower speeds conducive with the EC style may not be your cup of tea. Perhaps the nuisance of dragging your self on the snow becomes boring after awhile. Ruining jackets and pants grows old quickly so does replacing gloves. Having a not properly weighted edge and losing power and control are also major draw backs of the EC style there is less acceleration out of the turn and the gear used to EC on (Swoard) does not provide the same sturdy platform as most other products on all conditions. Most upper level riders need better gear under there feet then EC gear.

I think it is important to acknowledge the Laid out turn and all the joy it brings any rider who makes it. How ever true lovers and privateers of the hardboot world or as I have referred to as the hard boot brotherhood under stand the joy of every turn and find it very hard to imagine how there hardboot careers would have turned out if they had stop evolving after they learned the laid out turn.

The outlook toward the EC turn is very different between a recreational rider and a pro and the responses on this thread clearly show the differences.

Every recreational rider wants to EC at some point and is thankful that a couple of Snowboard instructors took the time to make a web site and a board so they can learn faster. They then go to the local hill practice and have a great time with all of there friends. Awesome!!!

Most pros just giggle at the EC web site and think it great that 2 snowboard instructors are sharing a style of turn with other riders, but because we understand the real limits of alpine riding and the inputs necessary to ride all styles it is very upsetting to see one type of turn being labeled as a style of riding, The EC style vs. US style vs Bomber vs Race vs. Freeride vs. soft boots etc. etc. etc. They are all just turns… and most real riders know this and are blown away that so many new riders (like many in this thread) would like the pinnacle of there riding to be the EC.

The Laid out turn is only a stepping stone to the true progression as a rider and should be introduced to any intermediate rider and should quickly become second nature. But the notion that a rider who can EC is an expert rider is insulting to the sport. Any one can go tilt to tilt when the snow is there to lean on it’s a lot like having training wheels and most riders will never progress past that point it those riders who will keep the sport right where it is.

The riders who see the value of every turn and strive to make the most precise and accurate inputs on all terrain all day every day using the laws of physics and the skill and balance necessary to push the gear and envelope all the way to the edge are the riders pushing the sport and forcing growth and development. These are the riders the industry looks towards as the future.

And it is these riders who are brave and bold enough to voice there options about a type of turn being pitched to the hardbooting world as a style. When it is no more then one skill necessary among hundreds to be an expert rider. I understand there point and back it one hundred percent. I know of no one who rides and competes at the level I do who feels any differently.

I only hope that most BOL posters take the time to consider the damage they are doing by pitching the EC style as a style its just hardbooting nothing more nothing less.

And just to stir the pot, if any one thinks they are an Expert just because you can lay out a turn, slap yourself hard- really- really hard then ask you self are you an expert fighter since you just slapped your self. Have you perfected hitting should maybe your slapping was an ES, you know an Extreme Slap perhaps you should start a web site all about slapping as fighting technique. Call it www.extremeslaping.com you and your buddies could take videos and stills all about Extreme Slapping you could develop a style of fighting that every one was stoked to try I mean its like boxing only easier; like boxing with training wheels every one would think it looked so cool you could make special Extreme Slapping gloves and every thing, maybe a special ES arena you could have a pay per view all about your new “STYLE” of fighting it would be Awesome… Every one would want to be an Extreme Slapper. You and you buddies could sit around bars and online forums talking about Slapping vs. Scratching vs. Poking vs. Pinching etc…It would be great fun and I am sure make perfect sense to every one involved in the ES scene. In till some real pro fighter has had enough and comes over and Punches your damn lights out why you are trying to make your “awesome” Extreme Slapping style work.

Perhaps as you are coming to you faintly hear the cat that just knocked you out lay it on you, just like some other pros are trying to do here….

Just because you can Extreme Slap does not mean you can fight... and a punch is still more proficient.

Just because you can Extreme Carve does not mean you can Ride… and a properly railed turn is still more proficient.

I am not saying you can’t have a great time Extreme Slapping each other around,;I am sure its lots of fun for you. But wouldn’t you rather know how to really fight? And only ES when it’s worth it.

I am not saying you can’t have a great time Extreme Carving around; I am sure its lots of fun for you. But wouldn’t you rather know how to really Ride? And only EC when well you want to.

AND TO ANSWER THE QUESTION...YES ... ONLY BACKWARDS BECAUSE FOWARD IS GETTING BORING!

[kamran]

[...]how many of us didn't even succeed in answering this question[...]

Sorry skywalker. I put the above highlighted quote and I guess you responded to that. Then later I realized it was deleted. So, just to verify it came from me.

wow,..all these passionate responses.

Is carving a sport to unite us or a religion to divide us?

[skywalker]

I hope, the quote is o.k. for you!

[SWriverstone]

The riders who see the value of every turn and strive to make the most precise and accurate inputs on all terrain all day every day using the laws of physics and the skill and balance necessary to push the gear and envelope all the way to the edge are the riders pushing the sport and forcing growth and development. These are the riders the industry looks towards as the future.

Well said Bordy! Hey, do you know anything about kayaking? I'd love for you to deliver a similarly-worded sermon blasting all the "river monkeys" who think kayaking is all about running waterfalls and spinning in holes! :D (Anyone can run a waterfall, and spinning in holes is akin to stroking your lips and making a "be-boo-be-boo" sound.)

I think many sports today have fallen victim to style-over-substance. For many people, it's all about looking cool. Very sad in my opinion. (I couldn't possibly care less about whether anyone sees me when I carve or paddle...)

Scott

[nils]

I'm not a fan of those posts that basically start a who's better than who stuff, because its useless, and also goes usually against the good will of making the alpine snowboarding, and carving grow further.

We've spent countless hours trying to explain what the EC style is about, on our forum, on here many times, trying to show our good will, and our open minded spirits...

Yes Bordy, i do agree when you say its like a toolbox and you need to master all the tools, but this is in case you pretend to be good at something, among the best etc... which i wouldn't dare to say even if I mastered many styles of riding. We are more on the low profile type, trying to turn people into having fun on the board, and as previously said, we do/promote EC because its fun, and not physically/technically too hard compare to racing down gates like racers do.

Yes i admit you need legs and guts to race a snowboard, and i prefer to have fun on the slopes at lower speeds varying turns than bomb down with banana shape turns... Its also a matter of what you like here.

Now what I'm not agreeing at all, and I do not want to start a flamewar saying it, is when you say you and other guys are doing EC since so many years before the EC site started....Funny because we've had a few people claiming to be doing the same turns since long ago, but are still waiting to see their past/present/future videos...

Is it that hard to admit no one can (yet) EC like J&P?

The development of the EC technique took J&P 12+ years since the early 90's, and they basically trained and learned it all by themselves in that remote valley of Zinal, away from crowds, and well they are not claiming they invented something, only that they developped the LINKED LAID turns... and this, even Jean Nerva told me he never saw it before like this, (he told me the boards/boots/bindings and the riding level of his times could not allow it!)

Now a lot of people are having fun riding and trying to add a new goal to do EC turns... its my motivation at riding now onpiste, and many riders feel the same... " i was bored carving, now i can have a goal that is exciting..." People train hard, take vids, pics, share their knowledge for the benefit of the carving community. The overall level has raised a lot, we saw it at our last meeting in Zinal, and it is going to take a few more seasons before everyone can do the same turns as J&P, but we see this as a great great reward: People are basically stoked when they use the EC style, and this is our motivation #1!

If people want to promote other styles its perfect, it will lead to riders mastering the toolbox and having greater fun..

But please don't put down EC saying its so easy, we've mastered it long ago..., its a bit easy said, and also not true....

Nils

[gdboytyler]

Originally posted by Bordy

Any upper level rider should have developed this skill as there riding progressed and most have had an EC style turn under there belt after a few years of turning.

Bordy is probably right, but the only people that have video of laid out turns that look as good as Patrice and Jacques of extremecarving.com are Patrice and Jacques. I would think that if any riders had video of them doing the EC style turns as well as J&P, it would have been posted.

A frontside EC style turn is fairly easy. Linking frontside and backside is hard. I can consistently pull off the frontside EC on black diamond runs, specifically Cornice at Mammoth when it was groomed this past weekend. But I can't link backside and frontside EC turns on any type of run.

If a race course were easily accessible and local clinics available, I would practice the race style a lot more. When the local resorts had “pay to race” courses setup, I’d pay my $2 and run the gates. But now the “pay to race” courses have given way to snowboard parks. I’m too cheap to enter Nastar races and too impatient to wait my turn.

The extremecarving.com website has good how-to instructions on the push/pull (flexion/extention) method with shoulders parallel to the bindings style. I find that style works well with all-around riding, not just the laid-out carves. I don’t have to change my style of riding when switching from alpine board to freestyle board.

Personally, I like laid out carves, racing and freestyle.

Racing has too big of a time/money commitment. I do the medium size jumps in the park and ride the superpipes, but I’m too old/wimpy to learn rodeo flips, 720’s, etc. But, whenever I get a well groomed run with some steepness to it, I’ll be trying the EC style carves.

[D-Sub]

darnit gd youre in the US. heel and toe, not front and back!

;)

[Guest mrdogboy]

This tread derailed, off a bridge, burned, rolled onto a pin factory and got poked, then fell into a lake.

AND IT WAS MY TREAD !!

just ans. the question with "Yes I do" or "no I don't" or "most people can"

[sluggomania]

....Sorry, I got off-topic when commenting on the fabulous Jasey Jay Anderson photo.

But to answer your question, I cannot ride like that.

Wish I could (if I had the time)!

:D :D

[skywalker]

I think, many advanced carvers can do a more or less fully laid toeside (correct, dear D-Sub?) turn. So I would estimate (forgive me this word) the percentage to about 33% to 50%. About the half of them might even master it properly carved. It's hard to define "advanced carvers", but according to Bordy I would call someone, who really knows how a carved turn feels like and who can master it in different ways and conditions advanced. Is this an answer to your question?

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by skywalker

I(correct, dear D-Sub?)

why, man? why not just pretend I dont exist like I do for you? Im tired of having beef with people so just leave me the hell alone, ok?

[Vahur]

Flames flowing twice in year: in late autumn when everybody is frustrated from not-carving and early spring, when everybody is frustrated from end of carving :D

Anyway, I just wanted to comment on laid style:

after hard thinking, scientific experiments and obervations I came to conclusion, that laid-down carver's riding preference (goofy or regular) should be determined only by gender: men regular, women goofy! Why? Because mens' jackets open to right and if they are goofy , then their jacket (or windstopper) will be filled with snow on laid-down toeside carve. Ergo if person in initial message's picture is male, then he should change stance to regular!

:D

[kamran]

skywalker,

thanks. it's totally fine.

mrdogbog,

You are absolutely right and I'm sorry others go sideways instead of giving a plain answer. My answer: I can do that but not consistently and I can not connect the turns either. I am very eager to learn it though.

sluggomania: Nice avator! I wish i could see it in a bigger size

[Fleaman]

I skid my board. SHHH Don't tell anybody.

Yes I can EC , not a smooth as J/P and I enjoy it on steeps. I also ride edge/angulated style for the rest of the mountain. Then main thing is that I am always smiling when I get to the bottom.

By the way, when I started snowboarding in 94, I rode with guys who would EC too. I thought it was the coolest thing I had ever seen. It became a goal.

[Bordy]

Nils,

I am at home today skipping training due to a small back tweak a received training SL yesterday.

Since I am home and you were kind enough to defend you style thought I would take the time to respond.

You: I'm not a fan of those posts that basically start a who's better than who stuff, because its useless, and also goes usually against the good will of making the alpine snowboarding, and carving grow further.

Me: funny how you then go on to state how your riders and web site are so skilled and also ask the Following……Is it that hard to admit no one can (yet) EC like J&P?

You: The development of the EC technique took J&P 12+ years since the early 90's, and they basically trained and learned it all by themselves in that remote valley of Zinal, away from crowds, and well they are not claiming they invented something, only that they developped the LINKED LAID turns... and this, even Jean Nerva told me he never saw it before like this, (he told me the boards/boots/bindings and the riding level of his times could not allow it!)

Me: absolutely untrue. Do you truly believe while your Friends were away from the crowd at Zinal that they where the only ones learning to carve snowboards and high angles with laid out body positions on the planet? Can you not imagine hundreds of alpine riders around the world doing the same thing or at least trying to and J&P were the first ever???

And I am even more surprised the Jean never saw this coming as one of the first cats to ever drag his chest on the snow? Wow the four of you think you have developed the linked laid out turn!!!! I am going to have to break the hearts of about 20 East coast rider I knew in the early 90’s who thought they were railing the linked laid out turn. And since one European( all though one of the free riding fore fathers) rider says so it must be true??

You: Now what I'm not agreeing at all, and I do not want to start a flamewar saying it, is when you say you and other guys are doing EC since so many years before the EC site started....Funny because we've had a few people claiming to be doing the same turns since long ago, but are still waiting to see their past/present/future videos...

Me: Funny since you have had a few guys telling you it nothing new but you still claim it is? I am searching video now and although my collection is not so great I did find my self making railed turn with both hands on the snow on each edge dated 1993 (even though we had been draging in the snow befor that) it may not be a full EC turn but it was the start of one, and just a year later when I and other riders started riding in rubber suits ( less drag) and where not only laying out carves but also learning to slide for ever then regain our edge. I will rind a way to post these Videos soon!! I also am holding stills of me riding a F2 beamer laying out toe sides and riding out of them in 90 or 91 that I am tring to scan right now. Could you not imagine the turns evolving here in the US over the next 15 years? Or would that be too hard to agree with?

You: Now a lot of people are having fun riding and trying to add a new goal to do EC turns... its my motivation at riding now onpiste, and many riders feel the same... " i was bored carving, now i can have a goal that is exciting..." People train hard, take vids, pics, share their knowledge for the benefit of the carving community. The overall level has raised a lot, we saw it at our last meeting in Zinal, and it is going to take a few more seasons before everyone can do the same turns as J&P, but we see this as a great great reward: People are basically stoked when they use the EC style, and this is our motivation #1!

Me: I am beyond stoked that you, your web site, and your friend have done a great job of sharing this style of turn with others also what a great contribution the Swoard is to many riders struggling to EC however I believe based on my experience that there are far better carving products and much more proficient styles. To indicate that EC style is a base to build on is true. But it is just that one tool in the tool box as you said.

You: If people want to promote other styles its perfect, it will lead to riders mastering the toolbox and having greater fun.. This is a important point.

Me; But as I have said in the past It is just a style of turn and it is not usful all of the time. I would be very hard to turn a screw with a hammer, there are many cases where the EC turn just won,t work.

You: But please don't put down EC saying its so easy, we've mastered it long ago..., its a bit easy said, and also not true....

Me: I don’t think I have ever put down the EC turn, I do how ever feel as though I have, like many other pro racers and riders, had The Laid out turn under my belt for almost a decade. Perhaps I do not show the excitement as many of the people you are trying to share the turn with do. But then again I already had been doing them for years and perhaps the excitement has past. The statement you make about this not being true is only your own assumsion.

Me: In closing Nils I am always pleased with anyone stoking the sport but I can not in good faith consider the EC style anything more then a group of friends who can ride, with a video camera and a web site sharing there style of riding with others. I have a web site and my own style that I believe is fun just as you and your friends do, If I posted video and said this is a new style and it was nothing more then a carved turn with some angle I do not believe I would have the rudeness to dismiss every other rider on the planets ability to make a snow board carve, let alone trying to lean over as far as possible with out rethinking how big the world truly is, heck why would any one except J&P be able to come up with some thing so amazing as carving and leaning. Especially since I grew up carving and leaning with others and we had never even heard of the EC in the 90’s and they where all making it happen so I am pretty sure its just another snowboard turn and you and J&P are some damn fine people putting out the word. You have done the hardbooting world a great service Pimping a layed out carve but in no way shape or form did you and your crew develop the link laid turn. All though you have for sure created the biggest shrine to it and mainstreamed the ability of a few solid riders. But to assume they are the only 2 is unbelievable. Perhaps a viewing of some old US videos like tweaked and twisted or perhaps Ride the Edge by the guys at Pure Carve will help you remember that we have all been trying to carve and lean for a long time. And maybe a lesson from the guys at pure carve is in order. They also pitched a very similar style on a Laid out specific board made just to carve low and unlike any race board out there it was the next new thing. Sound familiar? Huh…. I still own a Pure Carve Maverick and it still has a purpose but not under my feet.

P.S. Shannon Melluse... look it up

Dave Thimmel.

Mike Kildavauld

Andy Kinney

Arvid Swanson

Russ Jubert

Billy Enos

Steve Sanders

Larry Giles

Mike Grasso

Pasyon Searles

Ben and Rob Morris

Greg Grip

Cliff Ahumada

George Askavold

Lisa Kosglow

Victoria Jelouse

Just quick names I have seen link laid out turns before 1995 over a decade ago

O-yea maybe you should also find out who Boon Lennon is and what style of turn he and his "sliders" were making in the mid 90s!!!

[Hugh]

Sometimes when I wipe out, I can be seen looking like a EC wannabe, but EC is not my desire at this time.

Seriously, one needs to invest in the right carving equipment to advance with this carving technique. TD2 standards with soft rings, or other flexible bindings, boots that flex a lot (rear spring mech.) and a killer Sword or similiar EC shape/flex board.

Looking at my board quiver, boots and bindings, I don't have the right equipment to do EC. EC looks cool, but not for me.

Pic of me doing a heelside turn last year. :)

Hugh

[gdboytyler]

Bordy, how about some links or video titles?

I remember a Burton video that had Jean Nerva and Peter Bauer carving at (maybe) Buttermilk. They were doing laid-out carves, but, I don't remember any linked laid-out carves. They were also carving circles around a tree. That's still the best 360 deg carve that I've seen. That video made me want to get an alpine board and hardboots.

I also remember an old Snowboard magazine article that said "Eurocarve = Stupid Carve". That was maybe 10 years ago? This style debate has been going on for a loooong time. And it's still interesting:D

[nils]

bordy,

I'm not trying to make a point or say we own the truth.. I'm saying people tried to make laid out turns, but could'nt link the backside/frontsides all the way down, it was due to the riding techniques of the times and the tools they used... And yes, i tend to believe someone like Jean when he says he couldn't link them like that at the time....His advice counts to me since he has proven he knew how to ride as a multiple slalom WC winner, and also a euro carve guru with Peter Bauer....

And well, show me any filmed proof of anyone doing the same turns as J&P ( the swiss ones this time) and i'll owe you a beer! Since we started EC.com, we had many people claiming they did the same turns etc... and no one able to prove it ( weren't there cams at the time...?)

N.

[Bordy]

Just look up who Boon Lennon is and what sliders are and what they allowed the rider to do. I was involed in several of his Laid Out clinics in 95-96 perhaps you and P&J could have saved your self years of hard work when Boon was selling sliders for 20 dollars a pair. EC is called a Euro Carve it is nothing new and not that Extreme and getting boring. A layed out turn is just that but what it is not is new or the only turn to make.

Other posters (in this thread) have viewed riders in the US doing sick layed out turn in person and on video, when you and your friends were riding and shaping Wild Ducks. I am sure it means some thing to your web site to claim you developed the layed out linked turn but is simply not true. Perhaps the fact that others have told you the same should have tipped you off. I have heard the same stories all over north America from other riders about them and their friend making it happen. When I get the video converted be ready for it at Hardbooter.com I'll send ya some notice when its up. Keep up the great commitment to hardbooting.

keep on keeping on

I like Forest in the big can.

Thanks,

Billy

[kjl]

Originally posted by Bordy

I don’t think I have ever put down the EC turn, I do how ever feel as though I have, like many other pro racers and riders, had The Laid out turn under my belt for almost a decade.

I wonder if there is some culture difference here that makes it look like there's worse blood floating around than there really is?

Frankly, when I read stuff from you that reads: "Evey one who really is not into the EC turn tend to be ripping riders who have the EC turn under there belt and have been bored with it for a very long time." it feels to me like you are putting down the EC turn. To me, it reads like you are saying "the EC turn is for beginners, and the real men have progressed onto badder ass sports." But maybe I am reading too much into it. And what is up with your extreme slapping thing? Slapping compared to really fighting is the same as extremecarving compared to really riding? If that's not putting down EC I don't know what is.

I have to admit, I think I sometimes read too much negativity into the non-EC style posts, but it is frustrating to see almost every post read something like "yes, they are very good, but it only works on hero snow" or "yes, it looks cool, but I can do it too; I just don't want to anymore". It's all just various ways of saying "they look awesome, but I'm still better than they are." I don't understand why we Americans always have to feel like we're the best at everything. If you look at the EC forum, they sometimes say they don't like the race turn aesthetically, but you never see them talking about whether Patrice could kick CMC's ass down some random super steep triple black diamond run that separates the real men from the wannabe weekend warrior boys.

In regards to the claim that gobs of American riders developed the EC turns a decade ago, maybe it's true, and maybe it's not. I have no idea, since I've only been carving for 3 years, and frankly I don't care. But I've never seen anybody ride as smoothly as I saw Patrice ride at last year's SES, nor have I seen anybody else linking laid turns. I see people linking fully inclinated, highly angulated bomber style turns, which is also awesome, but never laid turns. Did all these riders from the 90's retire? Or maybe it's because I'm from California and we're all a bunch of soft, hero-snow riding wussies out here or something.

Sorry for the rant. I haven't had enough candy or red meat today.

[RDY_2_Carve]

I just wanted to add that the EC style/turn/whatever you want to classify it as is the only reason I got into hardboots. Whether or not I will get bored with it/move on from it ONCE i've mastered it is yet to be determined. My current goal as a first year hardbooter/second year snowboarder is to be able to do linked EC turns within the next 2-3 seasons. Honestly I think the only thing that's holding me back right now are conditions and equipment.

Now maybe this is a n00b mindset of hardbooting, but if it's inspiring people like me to try plates then the community should be all about it. On the flip side I can totally see Bordys point of view of how oldbies have moved on to bigger and better things. Personally this is just recreation for me so I whatever is putting a smile on my face is exactly what I want to be doing.

So with this in mind if any of you oldbies have that dusty Swoard laying around and have progressed beyond EC, please PLEASE drop me a line and let me take it off your hands!

Happy carving!

JPW