Guidance needed for handling icy courses

[patmoore]

Help!  For my age (71) I can hold my own on hero snow.  My board times are usually within two or three seconds of my ski times.  I don't mind icy courses on skis and think it works to my advantage but when it comes to icy courses on my race board, I'm out of my element.  I don't know if it's the psychological hangup of knowing I'm on one edge instead of two but I wind up skidding and being late.  On Tuesdays, I race in a recreational league and can be competitive on good snow but if the course is "Eastern Powder" boilerplate, I lose badly and virtually every other competitor is on a softbood setup.  I alternate between a 178 SG with 4 degree edge and a 170 Madd with 3 degrees.  Both boards are razor sharp so the fault lies with me.  

I took a clinic from Lynn Ott a couple of years ago and she had me reaching for the edge of the board.  That helped a little.  One issue is that I can't get low with an arthritic right knee (see image below) which will be replaced on May 16th.  I don't know if I'm in the back seat, have a bad binding setup, or more likely, just lousy technique.  Any guidance you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by patmoore

[dhamann]

I'm not sure how to share advise to those with more experience, but my strategy is one more beer and get early starts. This way I don't overthink it and just ride it. I also have been riding a 174 coiler nirvana balance instead of my 185 F2 WC speedster on ski gate courses. 39yrs young 200+lbs

 

I saw that Okemo Sunday mornings are $39 for NH & VT residents. Do you set gates on Sundays too? Interested in practicing running stubbies.

[patmoore]

2 minutes ago, dhamann said:

I saw that Okemo Sunday mornings are $39 for NH & VT residents. Do you set gates on Sundays too? Interested in practicing running stubbies.

Yep.  I plan to have one course set with stubbies this Sunday.  The course is open from 10 - 2 but I usually get it open earlier.  Unlimited runs for $15.

[dhamann]

1 minute ago, patmoore said:

Yep.  I plan to have one course set with stubbies this Sunday.  The course is open from 10 - 2 but I usually get it open earlier.  Unlimited runs for $15.

Nice. Loafing it this Sunday but will check back next weekend.

 

[Beckmann AG]

When you 'skid out', are you losing the tail of the board, or does the whole thing go sideways on you?

Is this more of a problem on the toeside, heelside, or both?

If those photos are recent, you'll note that on the heelside, both of your hands trend toward the toeside edge. This suggests there's too much of you already committed to the heelside, and they've swung wide as a counterbalance. So if you hit something shiny, odds are good you'll slip.

Also too far forward on the board, so the tail will be prone to wash. Again, suggested by the location of the right hand, etc.

Similarly, if you've got that much of you inside on the heelside, and the board is loaded to the front, you're going to be late coming into the toeside, and the problem will compound as you move through the course.

1 hour ago, patmoore said:

I lose badly and virtually every other competitor is on a softbood setup.

This is part of your answer.

Get a softer set of hardboots and get used to riding off the soles of your feet, rather than off the cuffs. Riding well on ice is about touch, not power.

Stiff shells can work very well, but the margin of error is tiny, and as they say, timing is everything.

[patmoore]

Thanks for the quick response Erik!  It does seem that it's the tail of the board that breaks free first on both heelside and toeside turns. 

"Too far forward on the board"  Interesting.  I've been focussing on getting my weight more forward like I do on skis.  Maybe too much.   I'll try as you suggest.   Much obliged!

My Head Stratos Pros have been modified extensively to remove as much stiffness as possible.  I have an old pair of Raichle 324s that are very soft out on loan.  I could get them back and try them.

Edited January 31, 2018 by patmoore

[ursle]

1 hour ago, dhamann said:

 

 

I saw that Okemo Sunday mornings are $39 for NH & VT residents. Do you set gates on Sundays too? Interested in practicing running stubbies.

Okemo is a zoo Sunday mornings, and it also offers a Sunday afternoon deal, same price, starts at 12:30, an awful lot of people leave after the morning to get home, and the afternoon is much less crowded, a touch of local's knowledge.

The boot pro at the bottom of the access road has a wintersteiger and great techs if you need a grind.

@Pat, set the course for the conditions, if it's boilerplate, less turns, more across the hill, more fun, not a downhill, nobody gets hurt, just not a course no one enjoys. Use your space for one course instead of cramming two into a course that's really only got room for one....on boilerplate days.

More free carving, getting your body closer to the ground and the board more verticle, if you can't do it out of the course, there's no chance of doing it in the course.

[darko714]

6 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

Also too far forward on the board, so the tail will be prone to wash. Again, suggested by the location of the right hand, etc.

 . . . 

Get a softer set of hardboots and get used to riding off the soles of your feet, rather than off the cuffs. Riding well on ice is about touch, not power.

Stiff shells can work very well, but the margin of error is tiny, and as they say, timing is everything.

By "too far forward" do you mean rider position, or binding position? 

And, . . . I'm totally with you on racing on softer shells for 'skills challenged' riders, such as myself.  I just replaced my old Deeluxe Suzukas with new UPZ 11s.  Not sure if they're actually softer, but they feel like they are.      

BTW great topic, Pat.

[dhamann]

4 hours ago, ursle said:

kemo is a zoo Sunday mornings, and it also offers a Sunday afternoon deal, same price, starts at 12:30, an awful lot of people leave after the morning to get home, and the afternoon is much less crowded, a touch of local's knowledge.

Thanks ursle. Even just lapping the gates? 10-2 timeframe for course. Tough call but good on the heads up. I've never been to okemo so I'll have to look at a map to check lift options to course. Willing to walk a little if needed/possible. Freeride is not an option for me if busy. Sacrifice for chasing stubbies I guess. Hope there's a good beer selection at the bar. 

[patmoore]

The NASTAR course (marked in pink on the map) is right at the main base lodge and visible from the bar which stocks Long Trail Ale!

Edited January 31, 2018 by patmoore

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, darko714 said:

By "too far forward" do you mean rider position, or binding position?

What I mean is the bend in the board is too far to the front end. This means the tail of the board can't follow the path inscribed by the nose of the board, and is, therefore, prone to going  'sideways'. Could be the binding location, but in this case it sounds like at least part of the issue is Pat trying to 'be' in a particular place on the board.

Over bending the nose can be helpful if you want to drift the tail without relying on rotation, but in this case, it's not helping.

Pat,

I forgot to add that you  might also consider a softer board as well. Softer flex will follow the contour better, and allow you more room for readjustment. It won't rebound as fast, but I don't think that's as much of a concern as is grip.

Regarding forward and skiing: This is a constant issue in recreational skiing, and a favorite 'go to' for ski instructors. Most, however, cannot tell you definitively why  someone is back of center, only that they need to 'get forward' if they ever hope to ski better. The cause behind the effect is interesting, and sometimes complex. It has nothing to do with being lazy, not trying,  being fearful, or any of the other BS answers that might float around the locker rooms and internets.

It has everything to do with boots, bindings, and skeletal structure, and how those things affect your interaction with a resilient platform.

BTW, what are you on for skis and boots these days?

And how's the ankle doing?

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Pat, the Madds is an Excellent "ICE' board, but I'm thinking the Sidecut is too long, or, the flex (although, moderately stiif, not 'Race Stiff') is not being engaged. So, a shorter, tighter-turning, but also Ice-Competent board is what you'd want. Have you tried the MK or shorter Proteus that's in Sean's shop? Do you yet use a knee brace (elastomer or mechanical-hinged)? How soft can your boots be?  As I noted, years ago, that a longer-edge/straighter-sidecut doesn't always work when 'the turn' lasts only a fraction of an arc. But, making a 'skipping-stone' turn, on a longish, stiff board, while somewhat 'secure' (the edge might hold..might.. hold.?) length deck, one needs to look at the reality of Edge Pressure. Shorter Edge, Tighter radius (well, within some ugly limitations), Will Bite In better than a 'long+softly placed' edge. But, can you capitalize on the Traction?. Are you quick enough to React to your available grip? So, the 'feel' underfoot is a key here. Trust in your Ride, another issue. Knowing Where it'll Take You in extreme Boiler-plate conditions (and, Yes, I've been surprised, often, especially on Madds products).  I'd say demo, after talking to Sean at Okemo, stay with shorter boards first. Then, maybe talk to Donek directly, and get a Custom "Moore is More" special made.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[patmoore]

6 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

BTW, what are you on for skis and boots these days?

And how's the ankle doing?

Thanks for the sage guidance!  I made a few runs this afternoon on the Madd and things went marginally better,  I was focusing on maintaining even edge pressure with both feet.  On  the gentle run outs I could get some nice carves to both sides but as soon as it got steeper or crustier, I had difficulty holding an edge.

Atomic GS 174 cm, 18.7 m radius.  Lange World Cup boots. I'm having a very good year on skis and am currently ranked #3 nationally in my NASTAR age group.  I just became the oldest Club Champion in our 500 member ski club's history (founded 1946).

The ankle is fine.  Last February I broke a collarbone but that's totally healed too.

I have a 1997 Hot Shine board that's gathering dust.  Maybe it's time to give it another go.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by patmoore

[patmoore]

2 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

Pat, the Madds is an Excellent "ICE' board, but I'm thinking the Sidecut is too long, or, the flex (although, moderately stiif, not 'Race Stiff') is not being engaged. So, a shorter, tighter-turning, but also Ice-Competent board is what you'd want. Have you tried the MK or shorter Proteus that's in Sean's shop? Do you yet use a knee brace (elastomer or mechanical-hinged)? How soft can your boots be?  As I noted, years ago, that a longer-edge/straighter-sidecut doesn't always work when 'the turn' lasts only a fraction of an arc. But, making a 'skipping-stone' turn, on a longish, stiff board, while somewhat 'secure' (the edge might hold..might.. hold.?) length deck, one needs to look at the reality of Edge Pressure. Shorter Edge, Tighter radius (well, within some ugly limitations), Will Bite In better than a 'long+softly placed' edge. But, can you capitalize on the Traction?. Are you quick enough to React to your available grip? So, the 'feel' underfoot is a key here. Trust in your Ride, another issue. Knowing Where it'll Take You in extreme Boiler-plate conditions (and, Yes, I've been surprised, often, especially on Madds products).  I'd say demo, after talking to Sean at Okemo, stay with shorter boards first. Then, maybe talk to Donek directly, and get a Custom "Moore is More" special made.

I have demoed the MK.  Unfortunately it was a weekend and I had to negotiate the "moving gates" on a very icy day when my knee was particularly painful.  I didn't give it a fair test. As I mentioned to Mr. Beckmann, I have a 1997 Hot Shine that I could try.

[Beckmann AG]

Have you ever skied a Jr GS ski?  So long as you don't exceed their speed threshold, they work very well, especially as a means of developing touch/dexterity and timing.

Similarly, you might get your hands on a quality, soft flexing softboot oriented freecarve board, and tool around on it, on the hardest snow you can find. Not with the intent to rail arcs, but to see what it takes at the foot level to grip and release cleanly. Then look for the same inputs on your hardboot setup, or at least realize what's getting in the way.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[patmoore]

 

4 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Have you ever skied a Jr GS ski?  So long as you don't exceed their speed threshold, they work very well, especially as a means of developing touch and dexterity.

Similarly, you might get your hands on a quality, soft flexing softboot oriented freecarve board, and tool around on it, on the hardest snow you can find. Not with the intent to rail arcs, but to see what it takes at the foot level to grip and release cleanly. Then look for the same inputs on your hardboot setup, or at least realize what's getting in the way.

Haven't tried a junior GS ski but will hop on my Elan 165 Slaloms once in a while for giggles. They are super responsive.

I have a couple of softboot boards that I could play around with.

BTW, the Hot Shine is 154 cm

[Beckmann AG]

The Hot is probably going to be too short.  

While developing a better LTR board, we realized that a much longer effective edge would reduce 'spin out' under the feet of a novice rider. So, if you wanted to build a custom for your race courses, keep that in mind, along with the softer flex thing. And also camber, somewhere in the vicinity of .750.

 

[patmoore]

Here's a short clip I shot last year.   I'm on a 178 cm SG board.  The snow was good and I had no problem holding an edge.  Mike Trapp saw the video and advised me to avoid rotating my upper body to the left on heelside turns.

 

Carving with a tip cam

[ursle]

54 minutes ago, patmoore said:

Here's a short clip I shot last year.   I'm on a 178 cm SG board.  The snow was good and I had no problem holding an edge.  Mike Trapp saw the video and advised me to avoid rotating my upper body to the left on heelside turns.

 

Carving with a tip cam

Look at your hands in tha video, sitting or standing do that with your hands, now turn your hands down, feel your shoulders close, hands up, shoulders open, hands down, shoulders closed, and a lower center of gravity, carry your hands like a gun slinger.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by ursle

[patmoore]

Just discovered that I'm going to have to be in two places at once at this year's NASTAR Nationals in Squaw Valley.  On one day of the competition I'm scheduled to race GS on skis and board simultaneously. In anticipation of that, I mounted ski boots to one of my boards today to see if I can save time.  I used a pair of Dalbello Kryptons (3 buckle) with the top buckle undone.  I was pleasantly surprised by how well it rode, even on a few icy patches. I recognize there's a big difference between the Kryptons and my  Lange WC 130 ski race boots.  but at least I know it can be done.

[patmoore]

On 2/1/2018 at 10:16 AM, ursle said:

Look at your hands in tha video, sitting or standing do that with your hands, now turn your hands down, feel your shoulders close, hands up, shoulders open, hands down, shoulders closed, and a lower center of gravity, carry your hands like a gun slinger.

 

Thanks Ursle.  I'll give it a try.