Another "what should I buy" advice request

[kawiboy]

Sorry, I’m detail oriented so this may get long winded, but I most likely won’t have the ability to demo anything before I purchase, so I’ll be relying on you guys.  I research and read on stuff till I’m blue in the face.  So I’ve done enough research to be dangerous but there’s too much out there and not enough time to read it all (most I’ve read on here and extremecarver.com are not as current as I’d like or maybe I didn’t use the right keywords).  Now I just want stuff cut down to only an option or two.  Alright, so it’s finally time for new equipment after 22 years.  So, here’s some history.  I am 41, 5’9” (5’11” when I was 20 haha), 205lb athletic build, regular footed.  Being far from the hills and always busy, I’m lucky if I get to ride 5 times a year.  In 1995, I bought a brand-new set up; Burton Prime 6.8 Asym (21.6 cm waist roughly the same as Swoard) with Burton Race Step in plates (front binding 57 deg, back binding 54 deg w/ 16mm cant, skinny stance), and Burton Reactors (liner 29.5, shell 29-30.5 L) which is still currently my ride.  As far as I know, I have a good set up and can ride “hard and fast” for locals on the small hills in Wisconsin.  I’m usually the only alpine rider on the hill other than meeting one of the guys on here last year.  My favorite local place is Granite Peak at 700ft vert, “75” runs, steep upper half roughly 45 deg to the lower half being 25-30 deg.  I think I’ve improved the most in this past season as I finally figured how to carve a low heel side by rotating my body forward and to the left. I’ve been drooling over wanting to EC which of course may require a new setup but is probably attainable with strict technique on part of my current setup.  Of course, money is an issue so I can’t go and drop $1500 to 2 grand on a new setup, so a few years old/used in good condition is cool.  I want to be able to EC fully laid out, yet still be able to do quick transitions with slalom sprinkled in (not racing, just bombing the hill). I love corduroy and could ride it all day but if it gets too icy mid afternoon then I’ll swap over to my BX board. I ride mostly man-made snow.  I keep reading about the importance of a wide, softer board with boots and bindings with good flex.  The number one thing I’ll be buying after my research in the next few weeks is hopefully 2017 UPZ RC10 Shoxxters, as long as I can get my size (I contacted yoja@upz but no reply yet).  I have the money for that and want new boots.  I do like the instant responsiveness of my step ins and Reactors but my toes are numb in anything lower than 15 deg.  I keep reading about not riding step ins because their too stiff however riding step ins the last 22 years and loving it, I don’t really want the standard bail type but will do it if it’s truly necessary for EC.  So depending on money, I may be riding the UPZs with my current Burton Prime and step ins.  I don’t know if the Burton step ins can be adjusted to fit the UPZs.  So the next purchase is the bindings, which I’m looking at the TD3 SW step in which seems to have the same flex as the regular TD3 SW (this is the expensive option).  I’m leaning towards the F2 Intec Titanium SI or Titanflex or the SnowPro Step in.  Dunno much about the Cateks or Ibex other than they’re old Burtons.  Finally, is the board which will probably be a next year purchase unless I find a cheap used one.  I’ve checked out the Swoard since they’re the EC originators, the Donek Proteus, and the Coiler Carbo Monster sounds badass and looks badass.  Dunno much on Kessler, Oxess, F2. I’m definitely cool with used for the board as long as it’s in good condition.  Since riding a 168 and after reading about the benefits of riding a longer board, will going to 170 or 175 really be too long?  Depending on how much I like the new setup I may part with my Burton equipment.  I’m very anal and it is all in pristine condition, especially for 22 years old.  So again, sorry for probably going over what’s already been said on other posts/forums but I need to make quick work cause winter is around the corner and I’m super pumped to get carving.  Here's a crappy video of me carving last year and a pic of my setups.  Thanks a lot for any help.

Carving 1.MOV

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Boots First! The UPZ will be a bit wider in the toe, but very familiar/comfy.  Go as wide as that Burton will let you, but know that at that point, you might exceed it's 'comfort zone'. Auto-mat Burton's are not a 'keeper' save for the random collector; however, I've only seen two pair 'accidentally' release, and then, they had 'gunk' that made them not Latch fully to begin with. Update those when you can (or, hey keep them for the Asym?!). As for the deck, it's actually really good, save for the stancing options! But, that, after the boots ('cause 4x4 Burton discs are abundant) is the Priority, but, not the Money Whore, You can get another 'used-but-more-modern' excellent board for $300, if you're patient about what you buy. Same goes for Bindings/Cants, as you'll note many folk selling these goods for less than $300 (with canting). Be careful what you choose, though. You do want it to match your stance/riding style, but with growth/exploration in mind (nothing too stiff, yet) As for boards, think of width, and flex profile. You want a similar width, slightly stiffer board, with a slightly more open side-cut.  Good luck with the hunt! 

 

[Aracan]

You will get tons of input, but here's my 2 cents as regards bindings: Stay away from Snopro step-ins. Their system got a bad rep for clogging, they have been out of production for a long time, and plastic does not get better with age.

Ibex are not old Burtons. The company that made the Ibex bindings was the OEM for Burton. These days they make bindings under the Carve Company brand. With quite a lot of flex, they are extremely popular with the Pureboarding crowd

Personally, I have never felt the need for step-ins, but that may be a function of the size of your local hill.

[Technick]

Boots: Something confy that fit your feet well and has good flex, you want to be able to flex your knees very low to standing up almost strait, BTS springs instead of locking mecanism.

Bindings: I've started with F2 Intec titanium, witch works well but wanted to try something with more flex, now I ride with F2 Intec RS, same convenience that the Titanium but more flexible, love it! I run 48 deg. rear and 55 deg. front.

Board: Used Swoard or Coiler EC, I Loooove my Coiler EC, it's my main goto board, works well in many snow condition. Mine is 175cm, 22 wide, 13/14m sidecut, flex for my weight. I'm 5'11" 180 lbs. A Coiler Stubby could be good too, based on the Coiler EC but with a higher nose, better in soft snow.

 

[kawiboy]

Thanks for the quick response guys. 

Eric, "Go as wide as that Burton will let you", do you mean widen my stance?  Will that help with edge hold on a fast carve in rough terrain? Improve extreme carve capability? And for my stancing options, since I've read about being as close to the board for EC, would I benefit from removing the rear cant plate?  I've read lower the binding angles are better too.

Aracan, I shorthanded my interpretation of the Ibex bindings. Thanks for the clarification.  As for step ins, living in Wisconsin riding short hills, I'm in and out of them a lot.  I haven't been out west since '95 (I know shame on me). At Granite Peak when I'm by myself (without my family) hitting it hard I'll push roughly 40 runs in a day.  More if it's a smaller hill.  I don't "need" the step ins, I'm just 22 years used to the ease and convenience.  I've also noticed they seem to be cheaper than standard bails.  So I'd really like to stick with them but want them be compatible for EC.  I'm thinking there's gotta be a step in brand/model out there that has comparable flex.

Technick, that sounds like a good setup.  Really leaning toward Swoard/Coiler.  Just gotta keep my fingers crossed and eyes peeled the right one for my size pops up on here.  I'm thinking talking to Bruce at Coiler would be a good thing.  Maybe even one of his pre-mades would work good too...

Also, my normal shoe size is 11.5.  29.5 liner on my Reactors.  Does anyone have the 29-29.5MP UPZ RC10 to compare fit?  I really wanna pull the trigger on those boots cause they're 2017 closeout with significant savings plus there's only 2 in that size on their website.  But they do have 1 pair of 28-28.5 but they're more expensive.  I really wanna avoid shipping them back unless they're really uncomfortable.

Anyone know if the UPZs will work with the Burton step ins?

Edited September 21, 2017 by kawiboy

[Technick]

There is a 10 week wait between order and delivery for a Coiler board, Bruce is very busy right now, but it's well worth the wait for a custom board.

Ps. With your shoe size, you should go 23cm wide so you can setup the right angles for EC. 45 to 50 deg rear. +5 to +8 deg front. 

[kawiboy]

A new board this year is highly unlikely.  So if I got a new Coiler it would be next season, unless a grand falls in my lap somehow :).  But used is more likely if cheap enough this year.  I can totally see needing a wider board. My reactors are close to the edge for the angles I have already.

[Technick]

Start with  boots and bindings, get use to them on the board you have and are used to. Keep your cash for next year... Practice your EC technique this season and get a dedicated, made for you EC board later, unless you find a used EC board with the right specs... I practice EC the first season with a F2 Silberfeild, narrow freecarving board. Far from ideal for EC but improved my dymanics (push-pull) and correct hips alignment. The rest was easier and more fun with a custom EC board that I got the next season...

[kawiboy]

Sounds like great advice Technick.  I'll push for getting the boots and bindings and work the technique this year and worry about the board at the right time. Thanks.

[Technick]

Found this,2015 but maybe still available...:

Swoard EC 168H 300$

[Technick]

Though the 169H (Hard flex) is rated 170 to 200lbs... the 175H is 290-220lbs.

Maybe wait for a 175H to pop in the "For sale" section, it would be a better match.

You could also post in the "Want to buy" section for the 175H, maybe there is one somewhere waiting for you! :)

[kawiboy]

So I'm assuming the extra 7cm length won't be a big deal over my current 168?  I do like the thought of it being faster, more stable, and better edge hold at speed.  I'm an aggressive rider and could probably use the longer run length.  I know I'll probably need the hard board due to my weight and height.  But for $300 that's not a bad idea/cost to get upgraded.  Ironically WJ Holm is the guy I met at Granite Peak.  He lives literally maybe 100 yds from one of the runs on the hill and he told me last winter he was looking to sell the Swoard.  I'll have to post to the want ads.  Probably my best bet.  I'm assuming most if not all the guys around here take really good care of their stuff.

[Corey]

Re: 7 cm.  No concern.  I own boards from 157 cm to 182, and have ridden up to 200.  The sidecut radius is the prime factor in how a board turns.  But generally, big radius sidecuts do better with long boards and short sidecuts with short boards.  There are boards that break that rule, but it's correct for 80% of what's out there.  

If your goal is to do EC-style turns, get an EC type of board.  The high board angles make tight sidecuts chatter a bit as the nose hunts for a tighter turn.  Swoard, Coiler EC, whatever, they all are going to be a big step from the old Asym you're on.  People do EC riding on all kinds of equipment though, so it's not a need.  It's easier on the right stuff though.  Note that an EC board will make MUCH bigger turns when loaded the same way as your Burton.  It needs you to bend it to force it into a tighter turn.  

I'm a step-in fan for short local hills.  When I was struggling with ice clumps under my heels after a short hike during a powder day, I was hating them.  Still worth it to me for every other day of the year.  A Dakine Spike stomp pad got added to my powder board to solve that issue.  

[Freezer]

I've got a Coiler EC 168x22 I could be persuaded to part with. It's a 12/13 radius and too stiff for me at 175 lb.  Bruce built it for me in 2016 and it has 5 days on the snow. It rails like crazy, but I had Bruce build me a softer version earlier this year.  It's white with red Canadian maple leafs. PM me if you're interested. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

On 9/21/2017 at 10:51 AM, kawiboy said:

 

Thanks for the quick response guys. 

Eric, "Go as wide as that Burton will let you", do you mean widen my stance?  Will that help with edge hold on a fast carve in rough terrain? Improve extreme carve capability? And for my stancing options, since I've read about being as close to the board for EC, would I benefit from removing the rear cant plate?  I've read lower the binding angles are better too.

 

Yes, by 'go as wide' as- I do mean the stance! Those were made with way-too-narrow stance options. Being an asym, it also rides a bit different than modern boards in that the sidecuts tend to work best from pressure in the board's middle. Most new build boards will accept a lot more pressure input along the tip/tail, thus letting you 'play' with edge hold both earlier in the turn, and later as well. Kinda like the fattened 'sweet spot' new tennis rackets have compared a Jimmy Connors vintage woodie.

[Technick]

This just popped in the "For Sale" section:

 

Swoard Gen5 Extreme Carver 175H !!!

 

 

Jump on it while you can!

Edited September 26, 2017 by Technick

[kawiboy]

Man, I wish I could get that too. But I just finally scraped up enough secret stash to pay for the boots and hopefully bindings. I'm pissed. Been looking at the UPZ RC10s in 29-29.5 for the last few weeks. Finally had enough as of last night so my wife don't find out and both frickin pair were gone. Gimme a break. Now I hope to hell the 28.5 fits. So I had to pay more for those and they probably won't fit and I'll have to pay more to ship em back. Then find a 29.5 online somewhere else. Man, it sucks not having local stores to try em on. Whoops, rant over.

[Corey]

Warning - the boots will feel too tight when you first try them on.  If they feel great, they're probably too big.  Look for 'shell fit test' on here.  Should fit 1-2 fingers between the back of your heel and the bare shell without a liner in place.  

And don't hide stuff from your wife.  ;)  

[kawiboy]

Haha, I'm getting scolded. I'd never get new stuff if I didn't. Nothing she'd notice or be marriage damaging.

I'm hoping/kinda thinking my Reactors may have been a little big. I had quite a bit if heel lift but they're also 22 years old. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed. I wish I could settle on a pair of bindings but don't wanna spend 500 on TD3 SWs. I'm kinda shooting for $300 on bindings.

[Technick]

Get some F2 Carve RS, 200$ New (Canadian Dollar). The Intec RS are 20$ more but you will need Intec Heels for your boots witch will cost you another 100$. Yes the base is made of plastic and have a little bit more side flex but I dont mind it at all, I even prefer this for EC. 

[kawiboy]

It's where I'm leaning cost wise with the F2s whether it's the intecs or standard bail style. It just seems like all the posts I read are from 2010 or 2014 about the step in negatives. However, seeing the TD3 SW step in and the F2 intec RS which both state they're more flexible. I can't imagine they're that far off from standard bail type with the newer technologies.

Edited September 27, 2017 by kawiboy

[Technick]

I think the F2 RS are better for EC. It's better to run flat, no cant, no lift and soft lateral flex.

 

http://www.alpinecarving.com/ec.html

[Corey]

12 hours ago, kawiboy said:

 It just seems like all the posts I read are from 2010 or 2014 about the step in negatives. 

It's a bit like the Chevy/Ford debate.  Some people are very passionate on both sides of the debate, but in the end they both get the job done.  I see about a 50:50 split between clip-in and step-in for freecarvers.  Racers are almost exclusively clip-in with flexible bindings.  

Step-ins strengths:  Fast in/out with minimal balance needed, very secure once locked in, rigid boot/binding connection.

Step-in weaknesses: Can clog fairly easily with sticky snow, rigid boot/binding connection, cables can break leaving you stuck in the binding, lack of direct feedback to know if you're clipped in or not (need to wiggle knee side to side to check). 

Clip-in strengths: Less rigid boot/binding connection, can handle small amounts of sticky snow, very direct feedback to the user as to whether you clipped in or not. 

Clip-in weaknesses: Slower in/out (some people can clip in while sliding), less rigid boot/binding connection.  

Note that boot/binding connection is listed in every case.  It's a strength or a weakness depending on what you want.  Joerg from Pureboarding runs his rear clip-in binding shockingly loose.  Others want their boots rigidly held to the binding.  The TD3 Step-In SideWinder blurs the line, but it's far from cheap.  

For the short hills I ride most of the time, you couldn't pry my step-ins out of my cold dead hands.  I'm out and then back in every ~6 minutes for a whole day.  If I only rode in real mountains, I'd simplify and get clip-ins.  

[kawiboy]

Unless a pair of used TD3 SW step ins come along I'll probably be going with 1 of the F2 RSs. I feel I can manage just fine with the step ins. I'm up and down the lift all day too. Plus, sometimes you can even step in right off the lift without stopping which is a big time saver. I think my biggest thing is to get my UPZ RC10 boots (once they get here) set up on my board and bindings and really work on the technique once the snow flies. I can always get the bindings this winter after I test and think I need more flex in the bindings then go with the standard bail. Thanks a lot Corey for the comparison.

Edited October 18, 2017 by kawiboy

[kawiboy]

On 9/26/2017 at 7:58 AM, corey_dyck said:

Warning - the boots will feel too tight when you first try them on.  If they feel great, they're probably too big.  Look for 'shell fit test' on here.  Should fit 1-2 fingers between the back of your heel and the bare shell without a liner in place.  

And don't hide stuff from your wife.  ;)  

So Corey, the 28-28.5s came today. They are snug as hell. My big toe does touch the inside of the liner. Not much wiggle room at all as some say the UPZs are known for. No slop or heel lift at all (but I'm not carving either). However, when I take the liner out I have about 1.5 to 2 fingers between heel and shell. I'd really hate to ride em and my feet are sore as shit from all day wear. I know guys will say toss the liner and get Intuitions or Palau liners but that's another $200. Hope to just have these mold to my feet while riding. What is the heat moldable method offer vs just riding and molding to my feet.