carvediem Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I am only marginally interested but yesterday the FIS announced new requirements for skis used in the world cup competitions . . . so in rough terms they gotta have less sidecut be a bit narrower and longer than before . . . safety was stated as the reason with regard to speed during turns especially in GS and that they would give the ski industry some time for development for financial reasons so this is to be effective for the 2012 / 2013 season . . . as for the manufacturers some think this is cool others think it's not I think the Fischer chief said this could throw competitions back to the times of Hansi Hinterseer (a funny remark he was an austrian skier before the carving skis came up and now delivers questionable performances as a singer) . . . among others Benjamin Raich is quoted to have voiced concern about the dangers of wide skis already before last season (and actually got injured in a GS or SL last season I think among several others as far as I remember) and the austrian coach stated his approval about the new requirements and thought this will likely not affect the recreational sector skis or just add a new flavor rather than replacing current designs . . . or it could widen the gap between race and recreational skis . . . anyway that's what I just read in a paper over a cup of coffee . . . guess this will hardly affect alpine snowboards . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race_Carver Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 If anyone is interested, I found out some more info on this topic. The FIS has stated that starting in 2012-2013 Men's GS skis used at the World Cup level must be 40 meter turn radius and a minimum length of 195cm. Women's GS must be 35 meters turn radius, and a minimum of 188 cm in length. Maximum waist width will be 65mm, and the current total stand height (base of ski to bottom of foot inside boot) will remain at 50mm. Apparently, the FIS has been studying this issue for years, and has determined that the current 27 meter skis cause too many injuries at GS speeds which can reach 55 mph. The biggest problem is with the new shaping and flex technology applied to race skis that allows the 27 meter skis to turn much shorter than their physical radius implies. This allows the ski to "hook up" at speed causing severe knee injuries in GS. The ski manufactures are pretty much on board with the findings except they state that they prefer 35 meter turn radius for both Men and Women, as the increase from 35 to 40 meters only showed a marginal increase in safety. From what I have been told, with new technology the 40 meter skis will be able to carve turns in 29-30 meters, so this will involve some change in how GS skis react from a racers perspective, but it is not a radical change as it seems on the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 From what I have been told, with new technology the 40 meter skis will be able to carve turns in 29-30 meters, so this will involve some change in how GS skis react from a racers perspective, but it is not a radical change as it seems on the surface. The sidecut radius is approximately the longest turn a ski or snowboard will carve. As soon as you tilt the ski/board up on edge, it bends and becomes a smaller radius. The higher you tilt it, the shorter the turn. So yes, assuming the same ballpark of stiffness, going from 27m to 40m is a radical change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 The sidecut radius is approximately the longest turn a ski or snowboard will carve. As soon as you tilt the ski/board up on edge, it bends and becomes a smaller radius. The higher you tilt it, the shorter the turn. So yes, assuming the same ballpark of stiffness, going from 27m to 40m is a radical change. I was thinking that as well. It's gonna be interesting to see how this effects course setting. My thoughts were that FIS felt that the "style" of turning had altered too much from what it used to be and they wanted to force it to return to the techniques of old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patmoore Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Ted and Bode respond to the changes. Ted: “FIS turns back the clock on ski racing. Who wants to see GS racers not arcing?” wrote the 2006 Olympic gold medalist. “Well that's what u r in for. Current 185cm, 27m. Now 195cm, 40m. Big change! No real data and major rule changes generally lead to bad outcomes. Not cool or smart=dumb.” Bode: “FIS could just remove themselves from the equation, that would be my top suggestion [for positive change].” said Miller. “I think that unrestricting equipment is key. They have shown that restricting equipment across the board in almost every sport does not help.That is a big part of letting the sport evolve outside of those kinds of restrictions.” Maybe Tomba will come out of retirement.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Ted and Bode respond to the changes.Ted: “FIS turns back the clock on ski racing. Who wants to see GS racers not arcing?” wrote the 2006 Olympic gold medalist. “Well that's what u r in for. Current 185cm, 27m. Now 195cm, 40m. Big change! No real data and major rule changes generally lead to bad outcomes. Not cool or smart=dumb.” Bode: “FIS could just remove themselves from the equation, that would be my top suggestion [for positive change].” said Miller. “I think that unrestricting equipment is key. They have shown that restricting equipment across the board in almost every sport does not help.That is a big part of letting the sport evolve outside of those kinds of restrictions.” Maybe Tomba will come out of retirement.... I agree with their sentiment as it parallels how most bicycle racers,myself included, and industry insiders feel about the UCI's restrictive and usually arbitrary measures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Does FIS concern for safety include those ridiculously dangerous jumps at the end of the DH races. There must be more than a feigned concern for safety involved in these changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race_Carver Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 The sidecut radius is approximately the longest turn a ski or snowboard will carve. As soon as you tilt the ski/board up on edge, it bends and becomes a smaller radius. The higher you tilt it, the shorter the turn. So yes, assuming the same ballpark of stiffness, going from 27m to 40m is a radical change. Jack, I see your point. Going from a ski nominally called "27 meters" to a ski nominally called "40 meters" does seem like a big jump. The point my source of information was making, and this is the FIS's point also, is that with the current World Cup GS set, the "27 meter skis" are too turny and can really hook up at speed. I don't know if you have ever seen a World Cup GS set up close, but it is nothing like a USSA J1 or Masters Level set. Those gates are really set far apart down the hill, more like a J1 or Masters SuperG course. When I said it wouldn't be a radical change, I meant that a 35 - 40 meter ski will be able to carve down that type of course. It will be more challenging for the racers to accomplish that, but the FIS thinks that is the lesser evil than using a too turny ski that has been shown to hook at at World Cup GS speeds. Kind of like running a 163 slalom board balls to the wall down White Nitro at the 'Loaf. Yes, it can be done, but if that sucker hooks up at 40 mph, watch out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race_Carver Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 I was thinking that as well. It's gonna be interesting to see how this effects course setting. My thoughts were that FIS felt that the "style" of turning had altered too much from what it used to be and they wanted to force it to return to the techniques of old From what I have been told, the course set rules will be the same. Old technique GS skis were 55-60 meter turn radius. The new GS skis with 35-40 meter turn radius will fall between the current GS of 27 meters and the current SuperG skis that are 40+ meters or so in turn radius. If you have ever watch a SuperG race, you know those skis can really carve too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race_Carver Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Ted and Bode respond to the changes.Ted: “FIS turns back the clock on ski racing. Who wants to see GS racers not arcing?” wrote the 2006 Olympic gold medalist. “Well that's what u r in for. Current 185cm, 27m. Now 195cm, 40m. Big change! No real data and major rule changes generally lead to bad outcomes. Not cool or smart=dumb.” Bode: “FIS could just remove themselves from the equation, that would be my top suggestion [for positive change].” said Miller. “I think that unrestricting equipment is key. They have shown that restricting equipment across the board in almost every sport does not help.That is a big part of letting the sport evolve outside of those kinds of restrictions.” Maybe Tomba will come out of retirement.... Hi Pat, Ted and Bode are super skilled at what the do, and I'm sure they will adapt just fine. This change only affects GS the most. Slalom rules are unchanged. SuperG has a minor change with skis having to be only a few cm longer than now, most racers probably won't notice much. DH is virtually unchanged with the exception on a 5mm lowering stand height. Ted and Bode will have to adjust their GS technique, but so will everyone else on the World Cup so everyone will be in the same boat. As far as data, the FIS and manufactures have been studying this for 6 years. Both agree World Cup GS needs less turny skis. The only difference is the skis companies feel 35 meters is ok for everybody, the FIS wants 40 meters for men. They agreed to discuss this more at the August meeting. Remember, these rules only apply to the World Cup level. Won't effect the NASTAR/Beer League/ J5-J1/ Masters racers at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race_Carver Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 Does FIS concern for safety include those ridiculously dangerous jumps at the end of the DH races. There must be more than a feigned concern for safety involved in these changes. I believe that last jump at the Hahnenkamm was redesign last year to address that issue. I don't know if you have ever rode on the Streif slope where the Downhill is run, but that is one scary piece of real estate. I don't think you could ever make that place safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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