extreme carving edge hold

[Guest]

(Please don't flame for posting on bomber!)

So....I just don't get it. Where does your edge hold come from when you are extremecarving? Rotation? I need a definition of this...my understanding was that counter-rotation was bad...but I thought I was using rotation to keep up my angulation???:confused: I don't even know what I'm talking about.

Whenever I do what I think the extremecarving guys are doing, I just get light to moderate edge chatter and/or a total washout. Is it a timing thing? Today I had minor success toeside but I felt like I was bending too much at the waist (yet somehow I had more edge hold this way...). The guys that I have seen do it have almost fully extended legs and upper body is not bent over, like I was today.

I'm just wondering where this edge hold is supposed to come from? Knee drive? Ankle flexing? Simple balance? Any input is much appreciated....I've dug around on the extremecarving.com forum and have had a difficult time figuring this out. I've looked at the extremecarving.com videos and technique articles, read the bomber articles...but...

I would say my push/pull technique is decent on black diamonds and good/very good on blue squares. Just can't "lay out"

[Jack M]

good conditions.

[Zone]

I like this thread to explain it (the conclusion for me of the whole thread is that as long as you point your penis where you're going you'll do fine)

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3556

There are other on here:

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2701

As you get better, I think most EC guys will tell you that the backside is actually much stronger edge hold than frontside, esp. noticeable on hardpack.

I'm not a very technical guy, but the analogy would be ice skaters turning hard on ice and yet not skidding, so it's how ever you manage to get maximal pressure on the edge at the board level.

Definitely practice, timing and not bending at the waist.

Yesterday was -10C after thaw and rain the day before and not skidding with EC was hard, do-able but definitely not 100% success.

[Guest]

zone - we've had a freeze/thaw period for the past few days, today was marbles that turned into piles of cut up ice with boilerplate underneath. Maybe those conditions are similar to what you experienced. I would like the get to the point where I say "Damn this snow" rather than "damn this technique"

Many thanks for the links, I'll take any advice I can get.

Jack - I was told the same thing...but I still think I should be able to do it and have the edge wash out, RATHER than chatter out. Chatter seems to be imbalance either too far forward or aft (aka - not correctly weighting the effective edge).

Practice, practice....trial and error...

Any other links to helpful pages or body alignment tips (@Zone....pun intended:eplus2:) would be greatly appreciated.

[queequeg]

Jack - I was told the same thing...but I still think I should be able to do it and have the edge wash out, RATHER than chatter out. Chatter seems to be imbalance either too far forward or aft (aka - not correctly weighting the effective edge).

Chatter also occurs when you push a board beyond its limits. Take a board with a short turn radius and crank it way up high on edge while you're moving along at a good clip and it will want to turn very tight, very fast. If you try to lay down and hold out a turn like that for very long something has to give, either you have to release some edge and slarve it, or you are going to chatter out (on hard snow anyway).

I suppose it would be possible (perhaps for a very small person) to EC with a tight SCR deck, but doing so would be very challenging.

[BlueB]

we've had a freeze/thaw period for the past few days, today was marbles that turned into piles of cut up ice with boilerplate underneath.

You must be nutts for even wanting to put your hands (not even to speak about the "direction pointer") down on that nasty stuff...

Everything has the place and time... EC on the cord or smooth softer snow, work on the correct carving technique in more chellenging conditions, freeride and play when everything is crapped out or deep.

Other then that, the edge hold comes from correct timing of push-pull and NOT tipping the board all the way to 90*. Rotation gives the pressure distribution and "streering".

[Zone]

I think we must have the same conditions, except mine was hard cord and not chopped up. A bit dangerous for the shoulders to try EC in chopped up conditions or really soft snow (where the hand can be caught and dragged behind). Not pleasant to do on hard cord but it forces you to be perfect on your game.

As for the directing organs on hard snow, we asian have a reputation for smaller organs, so it's not a worry:eek:

I usually don't wash out/skids when do it properly but when I wipe out it's sudden huge chatter when the snow is really hard like this week. And there is usually no warning (or at least none that I'm sensitive enough to feel).

Much easier and more pleasant to practice on hero snow.

You could upload a video of yourself to the EC forum, and have your technique criticized there.

[queequeg]

I think we must have the same conditions, except mine was hard cord and not chopped up. A bit dangerous for the shoulders to try EC in chopped up conditions or really soft snow (where the hand can be caught and dragged behind). Not pleasant to do on hard cord but it forces you to be perfect on your game.

I actually find it much easier to get low and laid out on firmer snow. It's the soft stuff that I have problems with. Ice is another matter, but nice firm grippy snow is my favorite for this stuff.

+1 on keeping your arms in and your body off the snow when it's soft, you don't want to end up with major shoulder instability like I have: it sucks, believe me. Knowing that your shoulder can blow out at any moment in a wrong fall will really shake your confidence and negatively affect your ability to ride agressively.

Soft snow will grab your limbs and pull them in all kinds of unpleasant directions. Be safe on it.

[Guest]

thanks for the responses - everything is helping. gah...some days I'm killing it and other days it just falls apart. Mental thing?

Snow is going to be soft tomorrow but I am determined to get some video of myself.

Textual advice can really only go so far because of the inherent ambiguity of words, even those that seem pretty definite. My biggest problem is that I feel like there is so much for me to think about going into a turn - shoulders, knees, looking where i'm going. etc.

then the problem is compounded by the fact that what I read isn't always right. That is to say, I find that when something works, sometimes it's the opposite of what people say. For example - no bending at the waist. This is misleading, because (as it looks to me in every picture I see of good carvers) everyone does this, unless you are on hero and just completely stiff. It's where and how and in what direction you bend at the waist that matters, and yet I am having trouble finding information on how to do it right.

Maybe I'm doing everything right but my timing as compared to SCR and slope and conditions is off.

Oh, and BlueB - I took a nice golf ball sized ice chunk to the knuckles....that felt great....

How is this not bending at the waist? (pic not mine, obviously, it's from Jonas Rejman)

EDIT: is my frustration apparent enough?:lol:

[Vahur]

How is this not bending at the waist? (pic not mine, obviously, it's from Jonas Rejman)

Not very good angle in this picture.

This is bending at the waist:

This is not bending at the waist:

Have you seen Rejman's film or Patrice/Jaques riding videos? I guess not, otherwise you wouldn't have asked this question, Patrice and Jacques (and other good carvers with push-pull technique) keep their upper body quite erect, it's strong leg bending during entering into turn, which could make such impression.

[Zone]

Others can chime in.

1+

On the pic, Patrice is compact, loaded, ready to fully extend in the turn.

He is bent at the waist, but everything is line up in one line, shoulder/hip/knee/board edge. I think when people criticize bending at the hip, they mean reaching for the snow before your frontside turn like the pic #1 Vahur posted.

By the way that's a great shot of Patrice, everything is bent, including the springs in those boots.

On another note, that movie Carve is amazing. I finally got it to run on HD TV and wow, the chase scene down the hill is freaking amazing. The camera almost touching the back of Patrice's board.

[Erik J]

I would say my push/pull technique is decent on black diamonds and good/very good on blue squares. Just can't "lay out"

You will get the most feedback if you post a video of yourself riding. Lie, cheat, steal do whatever you need to do to get a video of yourself. If you have never seen yourself ride you may be surprised at what you are or are not doing.

[digger jr]

As said before, good conditions. Too hard and you will hurt your hands, too soft, you will rip your shoulder out

[Istvan]

Perfect conditions do help a lot. But it is not all about that. You can EC even if it is pure ice or if it is chopped up. I'm not saying you'd enjoy it like on cord, but technically you can.

It's about the timing of the push, balance, body position and good positioning. By positioning I mean that I see several carvers who want to stretch out too late, when they are already close to the fall-line, or even crossed it. That will never work on real steep slopes. You have to start laying it down when the nose of your board is still pointing towards the edge of the slope, this way gravity will help you to do a nice laid turn.

The only thing you don't want is huge bumps, then you simply have no chance.

And by the way, you don't have to EC all the time and under all conditions.... snowboarding is about so many other things. EC is only one technique that is good to have in your backpack.

My $.02

Picture 1: A laid front-side. This was taken in Kitzbühel on a pretty much chopped up slope as you can see.

Picture 2: A laid back-side. This is not too obvious from the pic, but this was pretty icy and stiff. You might notice some chatter marks skiers left on the slope. Not blue ice, but so hard that I was practically the only one riding it all the day. Also you can see that the board is just about to reach fall line, and I'm already fully stretched as I initiated the turn pretty early. Shot in Hochkar.

[Zone]

Going by feel, this is what I feel the push is happening depending whether you are carving regularly (any style) on blues (tracing 2) or EC ideally on steeper (tracing 3). The actual pressure is probably similar if you look at picture of snow spray, however since you are all stretched out in section 3 and 4, you actually don't feel much in the legs pressure wise.

For EC, I feel that section 0, you should be ideally] going up hill, section 1 you are on the carving edge still going up hill. By the time you fully push in section 2, you end up like Istvan in his last picture.

Other can chime as I am not in your boots!

On a side note, my favorite EC is actually at the local hill, where there is a bank on the left side going up about 30 degree steepness. I go straight up the bank front side then EC heelside, so that by the time I'm in position 3, my head is below me at 30 degree. It feels even better than on steep. It's right under the lift so I can watch my track, and in nice snow, it's a nice and sharp track, and I can bend the radius of the VSR (11/14/13 approx.) to a radius of about 2m! Feels just amazing, like a radical off the lip.

Same feeling as this:

Going up the hill, setting up the backside EC:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_fTREUsYT-f0/S6far_wjGWI/AAAAAAAAC1w/YT0TQJSnK9I/Keith02[2].jpg

At position 3, backside instead:

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1222591951013829486voIJiX

[digger jr]

Nice explanation Zone. The numbered positions are great.

[joecarve]

(way late, but I thought I'd chime in here after recently getting pointed to this thread)

I cannot ride EC, nor am I really trying to, but there are bits of it I use which are really helpful. I'm generally trying to get as low as possible without touching the snow to avoid the shoulder wrenching potential.

On toeside, I'm always trying to pull my back shoulder back by rotating my shoulders (clockwise if you were above me, looking down, for regular footed) - ie, aligning my shoulders and hips to a neutral position...and a little bit beyond, so that my forward shoulder is slightly leading the turn. It seems to lock in my toeside a little better. No idea why, but it works. Go with it. I think there's basic some EC setup going on there, though without the intent to lay my chest on the snow.

My heelside is definitely non-EC, but there are times when I use some EC-esque movement for, of all things, safety (!) on a toe-to-heelside transition. Say I'm at the bottom of my toeside turn and I'm running out of room (trees getting real big real fast, impending collision with straightliner, whatever) so I need to make a tight turn very quickly. I stay compressed, pull up my knees as for a cross-under turn and, without any other change of my waist, rotate my upper body as fast as I can past the nose of the board (counter-clockwise). I can't explain why, but this really drives the outside of my forward boot toward the snow (downhill), the board switches and angulates very fast, and I'm cranking around to heelside. Honestly, it's like I don't even think about what the rest of my body is doing...whip those shoulders around and it's autopilot from there. BTW, I'm looking ahead on that, so I'm rotating my head in the same direction..standard deal of rotate-the-head-and-the-shoulders follow. I've even gotten a little bit of air under the nose, thought it wouldn't hold, but it hooked right up with no skidding. The really enlightening part for me is that there's no pinching of the hip - ie, shoving my forward hip downhill - which I previously needed to get a heelside to stick. Go with it, Part II.

BTW, I never understood the EC toe-to-heel transition worked like this even though I've spent many hours stepping through the videos. I didn't get it until Dr. Zone's brother showed me the movement while standing in my garage - no gear involved. Next time on the snow it worked like a charm. Also, I think a key part of this transition is being rotated back as I describe above at the end of toeside...gives you more momentum to whip around. I liken it to throwing a discus in a flat plane. It's definitely one of the eye-opening moments I've had in this sport.

[valsam]

Since this thread is open then let me tell you my problem so maybe someone can help.

I have no problem keeping edge hold while extreme carving in most conditions except maybe ice or very bumpy terrain but my problem is that i find it difficult to release easily from a carve to initiate the next,despite my boards small SCR i usually find my self using the hole width of the run (i want the carve to last long and laid!)and that's why i like riding on steeper slopes so that i can keep some decent speed just enough to initiate the next turn just before i run out of terrain width , the only way to release and not eat up the whole width is by shifting my weight back loading the tail and then sort of like jumping into the next carve but that kind of takes half the joy out of the cave because the carve is much smaller and only lasts for 2-3 seconds.

So is it me?

Is it that the runs are narrow(probably)?

Is it the boards small SCR or maybe the board is hooky?

Is it all the above 3?

None?

Or is this just normal?

[Guest]

I didn't get it until Dr. Zone's brother showed me the movement while standing in my garage - no gear involved. Next time on the snow it worked like a charm. Also, I think a key part of this transition is being rotated back as I describe above at the end of toeside...gives you more momentum to whip around. I liken it to throwing a discus in a flat plane. It's definitely one of the eye-opening moments I've had in this sport.

Video please ? :):):)

thanks for all the responses, btw