Cant and Lift

[2Curious]

So I'm trying to experiment with cant and lift and read Jack's excellent cant and lift faq, but I still had a few questions...

Jack's article has a picture of a set up with 3 degree toe lift and 3 degree heel lift and recommended that as a starting point for experimentation. I was looking at the picture but I couldn't figure out if he meant that the lifts were in line with the board, or in line with the bindings?

It sounded like the set with the lifts in line with the board was kind of the old school way to do it, and that the way he was recommending was in line the bindings, but the picture's angle didn't really help me figure this out.

Anyone have any recommendations? I kind of feel like my set is a little too wide and I'm trying things to make it more comfortable. I feel like the only way to get a good clean carve in my set up is to try to squeeze my knees together but every article says that's a bad habit... so maybe I need to mess with my bindings?

[Mr.E]

Or narrow your stance just a hair.

[Puddy Tat]

These terms are with respect to the binding.

Lift - rotation about the short axis of your binding. ie lifting the toe of your front binding or lifting the heel of your rear binding.

Cant - rotation about the long axis of your binding. Inward canting leans the top inner edges of your boot cuffs towards the middle of your board. Outward canting leans the top outside of your boot cuffs towards the tip and tail of the board.

Dave

[Arclite]

....sorry, I think I'm about to hijack your thread, just because I have a question as well. :o

I've been running 90* on both my cant discs (front - 3; rear - 6) and my toeside carves were amazing, but my heelside carves left a lot to be desired.

I originally wanted to make it an outward cant on my front foot, but my dad convinced me otherwise; I changed it to pure toe lift in the front (going from 90* to 60*), with no change to the rear.

First thing I noticed - getting off the lift was a little more awkward; since I had pure toe lift, I was had more pressure on my heelside edge, and generally I kept turning heelside when I slid off the lift.

Second - My heelside turns IMPROVED to a great degree. I noticed I felt more confident, and could get much lower on my carves.

Third - I think I became a little more unstable at speeds. Yesterday I was fine when I was at higher speeds going in a straight line (you need speed to get to the bottom of June from the top of Chair 4/6). I caught an edge randomly, something that wouldn't have happened the day before. I had more than one occasion of sketchy-ness as well, just in casual sliding around.

Is this something that I'm completely wrong on, or is this something that others have noticed?

[two_ravens]

Arclite, you're just weird! ;) After some binding adjustments last year my heelsides felt great, but toesides went to heck. So this season I went from flat front foot to 3 deg straight toe lift, and my toe sides came back to feeling really solid with no noticeable detriment to anything else... YMMV of course (and probably will.) :)

2Curious, I'm certainly no binding guru, but a bit of pure toe lift in front and heel lift in rear might make you stance more comfortable and seems to be one good place to start as you get dialed in. Good luck!

[Arclite]

Well, I know I'm weird, that's besides the point! :rolleyes:

With the 90* canting i felt stable and great all-around, I just couldn't get over far enough on my heelside to really crank it over.

I think I'm going to go in 10* intervals back to 90* and see what's perfect.

[Maciek]

Well, I know I'm weird, that's besides the point! :rolleyes:

With the 90* canting i felt stable and great all-around, I just couldn't get over far enough on my heelside to really crank it over.

I think I'm going to go in 10* intervals back to 90* and see what's perfect.

Do not go 90* cant in such huge increments. You're going to break legs at hips ;)

Seriously? 0-6 degrees would work fine... but what would I know these days? :D

[KingCrimson]

....sorry, I think I'm about to hijack your thread, just because I have a question as well. :o

I've been running 90* on both my cant discs (front - 3; rear - 6) and my toeside carves were amazing, but my heelside carves left a lot to be desired.

I originally wanted to make it an outward cant on my front foot, but my dad convinced me otherwise; I changed it to pure toe lift in the front (going from 90* to 60*), with no change to the rear.

First thing I noticed - getting off the lift was a little more awkward; since I had pure toe lift, I was had more pressure on my heelside edge, and generally I kept turning heelside when I slid off the lift.

Second - My heelside turns IMPROVED to a great degree. I noticed I felt more confident, and could get much lower on my carves.

Third - I think I became a little more unstable at speeds. Yesterday I was fine when I was at higher speeds going in a straight line (you need speed to get to the bottom of June from the top of Chair 4/6). I caught an edge randomly, something that wouldn't have happened the day before. I had more than one occasion of sketchy-ness as well, just in casual sliding around.

Is this something that I'm completely wrong on, or is this something that others have noticed?

Don't base your cant on heel-toe strengths. Do what feels best for your feet...

I run double outward cant FWIW

[Arclite]

Do not go 90* cant in such huge increments. You're going to break legs at hips ;)

Seriously? 0-6 degrees would work fine... but what would I know these days? :D

Its a 3* in front, 6* in back, but they were turned so that the highest point of the disc was at 90* (or what ever I stated before)

[KingCrimson]

Those numbers are meaningless without stance angles.

[Arclite]

Those numbers are meaningless without stance angles.

60* front and rear.

[John Gilmour]

go -90 on your front foot.. your heelside will fix itself.. in regards to your cant orientation..I assume 90* means the cant ramp has teh skinny end facing the front and the thicker part towards the rear. You may have to increase your stance width to accommodate.

[kieran]

60* front and rear.

try gonig to 63° or 65° on the front foot.

[Jack M]

Is this something that I'm completely wrong on, or is this something that others have noticed?

It is normal that changes to your stance will cause some initial confusion for your muscles because they are used to having things a different way. You'll get used to the new setup with a little time. It sounds like if your heelsides improved that you're on the right track. I think if you take the next step and use only heel lift on the rear foot and no cant, you'll probably find your toesides improve.

[Arclite]

It is normal that changes to your stance will cause some initial confusion for your muscles because they are used to having things a different way. You'll get used to the new setup with a little time. It sounds like if your heelsides improved that you're on the right track. I think if you take the next step and use only heel lift on the rear foot and no cant, you'll probably find your toesides improve.

See, that's why I only changed the front binding to pure toe lift; my toesides are fine for me.

Got to try the set up again; Definitely more used to it now.

Feels better than before.

[Hans]

I have been starting with zero - zero cant disks for lower angles (till 60 degrees). Mind that there is already some canting in your hardboots. If the angles get higher I use a 3 degrees cant disk in the rear. I use a 50cm stancewidth with all my boards. The wider the more control. But it's all personal preference. Don't give up too soon on a certain stance, your body - legs have to adapt and that can last a while.

Hope it will work out for you.

[Istvan]

Agree with Hans. Board width and binding angle will have an impact on the need for cant and lift. Wider board = lower angles = less need for lift and cant. And also the other way around. See the attached.

5 tips (work for me, might not work for everyone):

- don't do pure cant or lift, always try to combine them (the attached pic will give you an idea why).

- don't be afraid of trying a bit of toe lift on your front foot. As Hans mentioned all the boots have a heel lift, so a toe lift will help you to find your balance in a centered position.

- take into account your biomechanics (bow-legged, knock-knees, etc). Don't just simply copy someone else's settings.

- after you change the settings, give yourself a bit of time to adopt, so that you can feel if the new setting are better or worse.

- when testing your new settings on the carpet try to go down as deep as possible without losing your balance. If you can easily go down really deep without any pain and loss of balance you are on the right track.

[Jack M]

See, that's why I only changed the front binding to pure toe lift; my toesides are fine for me.

That's what you think. ;) Try pure heel lift on the back foot. You might find it unlocks power, enabling your back knee to be more independent of your front. If it does, you can take it a step further with a little outward cant on the back foot.

[Hans]

That's what you think. ;) Try pure heel lift on the back foot. You might find it unlocks power, enabling your back knee to be more independent of your front. If it does, you can take it a step further with a little outward cant on the back foot.

@Jack

Just curious.

Can you explain to me/us what the purpose is of outwardcant on the backfoot?

Thanks.

[Jack M]

Can you explain to me/us what the purpose is of outwardcant on the backfoot?

It helps with knee separation and putting your rear knee more under your center of gravity during a toeside carve. I love it, but it may not be for everybody.

(old pic)

more here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/canting.cfm