rocker boards

[jtslalom]

So I went to a local snowboard shop yesterday to see what some of the new boards look like. This shop does not sell carving decks but only freestyle and freeride boards. The owner of the shop showed me some new freeestyle boards and talked about the new "rocker" design. Now I have heard of this design, where it seems like companies have de-cambered boards so that when laid flat on the ground, there is no space between the middle of the board and the ground. He said that it would help the rider initiate a carve. I wondered how true this is? I mean I can initiate a carve pretty good with my cambered board and haven't realy had to much trouble doing it. Are decambered boards that much easier or nicer to carve with? I just don't know.

The other thing the owner told me was that companies are starting to make less and less freeride type boards. Now I know that some companies interpretation of a freeride board is nothing more than a stiffer frestyle board. Compared to most carving decks they seem like wet noodles. However, to the kids that buy them, thay are getting less and less of a chance to ride a board that has any type of carving cabablility. I know that you can carve on any board but I would rather carve on a board specifically made for carving. My question is why are companies getting away from freeride boards? Is the market that entrenched in freestyle that companies take a loss manufacturing freeride boards?

[Guest]

I think your guy just sees less and less freeride boards because he is in Jersey. Everyone who rides out west on soft boots has one.

[heroshmero]

The move from the major manufacturers toward producing mostly freestyle boards and equipment started happening in the late 90's, in my opinion.

[Michael Pukas]

I agree with Jim - there's lots of freeride boards happening here in the west. Get on facebook and look up Cam Farrell - he's got a new vid taken by Snowman doing the follow-cam of a new Never Summer Raptor 169 - he's ripping on it!

If you want to know about rocker in carving boards - do a search. There was a big discussion/debate here last year. Bascially, rocker works for carving boards! One thing a rockered nose does is to allow the board to float over uneven surfaces better than a purely cambered board which is always trying to plow through and dig into the snow. Put a rockered board on edge and the nose is already into the curve the board will take during the turn.

In my book - rocker = an up-turn in the board. Camber = a down-turn in the board. De-camber means to bend the board against it's camber, meaning down. I think de-camber is a term misused to describe rocker. Early-rise is a term that I think is appropraite to describe rocker in the nose.

Now rocker and camber in freeride/freestyle boards has gone in a different direction. Never Summer just patented their shape - it's rocker between the feet and camber under each foot. Lots of other companies are doing that as well - Burton, Lib-Tech, Gnu, etc. I haven't riden one of these baords yet so I can't comapre. Then there are freestyle and powder boards that are completely rocker - no camber at all. Alpine decks have gone the route that skis have gone where there's camber under foot and rocker in the nose and tail. The degree of rocker in the nose (and tail) gets specific to what the intended purpose is.

[scrapster]

I've felt bad going into my local shops the last few years as I only ever buy a few random accessories (stomp pads, gloves, etc.) They just have very little that interests me. Most can't even do a basic tune anymore.

Regarding the freestyle/freeride ratio--I'd like to see someone factor in the difference between small and large board makers. The best freeride-specific boards available in my local shops are from Never Summer and Arbor. I wonder if freeride will become more the province of these mid- to small size manufacturers? Hence, if your shop is dominated by the behemoth brands, you may only have one freeride board to choose from, if that. (At least you'll be able to get a board with a skull or a bikini-clad lady on top!)

[eajracing]

I agree with Jim - there's lots of freeride boards happening here in the west. Get on facebook and look up Cam Farrell - he's got a new vid taken by Snowman doing the follow-cam of a new Never Summer Raptor 169 - he's ripping on it!

Bear in mind though, Cam can rip on just about anything I've seen him ride on.

[WavesWithin]

Rocker rules on freestyle boards.

[Steph]

I don't think rocker is just a "west-coast" thing. Almost every set of skiis in my shop is at least partially rockered. Many of the freestyle/freeride boards that I've looked at, also have some rocker. It does offer much better "float" in deep powder, for the west coast conditions. However, rocker does also allow for easier turn initiation, helping even the beginner skiier/rider feel more confident in their skills.

[newcarver]

Full rocker great for off pist steeps and deep pow. Very easy turn initiation and great float. Stinks for straight line on hardpack. Very sketchy feeling compared to cambered board under these conditions. The new carving boards have the nose and tail rocker but still utilize camber under foot. Kind of the best of both worlds. Hope to upgrade to this type of board in the near future. As far as the availability of FR boards, less demand = less product. Still plenty around in the west though. Lots of small and mid sized companies are still making them. Just like mentioned previously.

[philw]

I think the term "rocker" is being used for different things here. There's "nose/ tail rocker", and then there's reverse camber. They're hugely different.

Full rocker great for off pist steeps and deep pow.

The rockered boards I've ridden in heli powder haven't overly impressed me so far. Sure they're rideable, but (say) the Charlie Slasher (flat) is a nicer ride than the Snow Mullet (reverse camber). And neither are better than a pre-EST Malolo.

I wish I could say otherwise, but it isn't so. On the other have I have heard from experienced powder skiers that spats and what came after are really good for that activity. I can't figure out why reverse camber is better for one sport than the other in these conditions. If you think about how a board planes in powder, it's unclear to me how involved the camber is. I'm interested in taper and nose and tail flex, but I'm not really working with the camber of the board in powder, unlike when I'm on piste for which it's critical. I wonder if the "hearsay" about Reverse Camber boards being "good in powder" may be coming from novices who venture off the side of the piste into powder, and benefit from the fact that the nose points up a bit more.

My experience is that if you're an expert, you can feel the different profiles of these boards, but it doesn't improve performance.

Reverse Camber on piste? I don't think you'll find many people racing with it. You will on the other hand see a lot of people sideslipping to the park riding it. You can see it would work well there.

[Buell]

Rocker alone will not make a great powder board. It will generally make a board that is much easier for a novice to ride in powder due to the added low speed float and maneuverability. By no means does rocker alone make a great board for high speed powder riding. I have ridden a number of rockered boards and they were all very different.

For me, camber pushes the nose of the board down into the snow in powder. I can feel it in the turn, it is just not as smooth as a good rockered board turn.

Rocker profiles are different and, from what I can tell, a small change in the amount of rocker will make a big change in board performance. Too much and the board is not good at high speeds. The Venture Storm just had too much kick in the tail and neither Rebecca or I could stomp on the tail to slow down and change direction safely in the trees. Beyond that the board was great.

Flex is a huge part of making rocker work well. The board needs to be stiffer than its cambered counterpart, especially for high speed riding.

Flex profile is also a huge factor. The Snow Mullet is really soft in the middle and I really disliked how it rode powder.

I am pretty sure that taper still plays a part in making a rockered board that is stable at high speeds in powder.

On piste, most rockered boards have too much kick in the nose and tail to have full contact of the effective edge and you lose edgehold.

At this point, for a high performance powder board, I would look for a slightly rockered nose and tail with smooth rocker, flat or slight camber though the midsection. The amount of kick should be that almost full edge contact is made when the board is put on edge on a hard surface. Beyond that I would want a stiff, consistent flex pattern with a reasonable amount of taper.

The rockered Tanker 172 comes close to this. I wish I could get a shorter one (162 to 166) and I would love to see some dampening materials added for all around performance (though not relevant when actually in powder.)

BTW, I have not found any significant issues straightlining on groomers with rockered boards.

[tekkheadd]

Lots of good stuff here!

My daily rider is a LibTech Skunk Ape. reverse cambered glory. I love it.

For me though the technology that is coming out these days seems to be trying to correct poor technique.

As an instructor of mostly first-timers it is important to stress technique to them over the latest greatest board technology. I think this translates to more experienced riders when choosing a new board. It would seem easy to just walk into a shop and buy a new board that corrects some issue with riding you've had say, having trouble initiating turns or holding an edge.

What it really comes down to is the fact that, the rider (not the board) is making the turns and the technique is still the same. All the tipping, twisting, pressure and pivoting are still there and not going anywhere except down the hill with you.

ymmv

[Puddy Tat]

For me though the technology that is coming out these days seems to be trying to correct poor technique.

+1 and when you say this the one that comes to the front of my mind is magnatraction. In relation to how the edge is being pressured by the rider through a turn and also how the edge is being sharpened before even going onto the hill.

Apologies if this opens a whole other can of worms.

[jojogreen]

Ever since Lib Tech came out with the magna traction and the rocker a few years ago, the rockers have taken off. It's even hard to find a decent bx board in the local shops. After browsing in my shop, it seemed my only two options were a Burton Custom X, or a Burton T6. Based on what I've seen so far, it is more about personal preference.

[philw]

For me though the technology that is coming out these days seems to be trying to correct poor technique. ...

ymmv

That sounds like the sort of thing you generally hear about improvements in technology. It's unclear to me how that applies to, for example metal, or decambered noses & tails, or taper, all of which help people win races. You don't need me to quote Shane M, but he has a point. The best powder skiers with the most vert of anyone world-wide are riding reverse-cambers, and it's not because they can't ride.

I think the technology has a few purposes:

1. To sell more gear, by persuading people that the new gear will make them better riders.
   
2. To help beginners progress.
   
3. To help people ride better.
   

It makes no difference what we think of course, but I see nothing bad in any of that. I'm pleased that new riders don't have to deal with those stupid old bindings we had back then... actually I'm slightly surprised that tie-wrap bindings still exist, but there it is.

On the original question...

I never really understood the difference between "freeride" and "freestyle". I snowboard; other verbs aren't needed. In the UK the two names are more or less indistinguishable and entirely skate oriented. I don't have the data, but I guess that most uk sales are to beginners/ learners and are (to judge by stock) all park boards. From the forums, most boards here are bought mostly by people who have not ridden them. These people want to buy gear which makes them better riders. You can see why they would not want to buy last-year's technology under any circumstances.

[tekkheadd]

That sounds like the sort of thing you generally hear about improvements in technology. It's unclear to me how that applies to, for example metal, or decambered noses & tails, or taper, all of which help people win races. You don't need me to quote Shane M, but he has a point. The best powder skiers with the most vert of anyone world-wide are riding reverse-cambers, and it's not because they can't ride.

these people are highly trained and are looking to take advantage of technology. Most people do not do these things so, in some instances, the fundamentals of snowboarding are lost in these technologies. In the end, the board just sits there on the snow and does nothing till you strap it on.

On the original question...

I never really understood the difference between "freeride" and "freestyle". I snowboard; other verbs aren't needed. In the UK the two names are more or less indistinguishable and entirely skate oriented. I don't have the data, but I guess that most uk sales are to beginners/ learners and are (to judge by stock) all park boards. From the forums, most boards here are bought mostly by people who have not ridden them. These people want to buy gear which makes them better riders. You can see why they would not want to buy last-year's technology under any circumstances.

If a rider who cannot, lets say carve on a regular all mountain board, will still not be able to carve on a carving specific board. Yes technology can make you faster, floatier or cooler but from what i've seen it cannot make you a better rider.

Take a never ever and put him/her on a regular cambered board and with in a couple of hours, depending on the person, can begin to start to make turns.

Take the same person and put them on say libtech's skate banana and watch them struggle to keep the board the direction they need it to. I've seen this many times.

cheers

[jojogreen]

One has to be wickedly uncoordinated to catch an edge on a rocker; so you don't get slammed hard therefore you have a good feeling of sliding on snow and the perception of ripping it up. And you will come back again. Get slammed hard and you don't come back again. So for beginners it is a good thing though it might limit progression and make the individual a poor rider/carver.

Maybe we should have rounded plastic edges so they can't catch an edge no matter how far they lean.