It's simply somebody else's problem....

[Kent]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36226444/ns/business-personal_finance//

[Jack M]

"It is a system in which the top 10 percent of earners — households making an average of $366,400 in 2006"

Wait... IIRC, didn't John Kerry tell us that the top 10 percent meant households making $200k or more? $366k sounds much more reasonable.

[MUD]

I don't know which is scarier, that fact that I can't find a SOLID answer, or that a "news" organization is WRONG!

According to this one they are WAY off:

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Jack, Kerry was closer, but still wrong.

Kent, please let us know if you have a more reputable source for this than MSNBC.

[MUD]

The wealth distribution curve for our country is pretty much an L..... (laid on its back)

[bobdea]

exxon did not pay federal income tax in 2009

yes, the US tax system is ****ed but people that make say $200k or more and whine about it ought to get together with all the other hard up types that had to downgrade from a mercedes to BMW because they were not in the know enough to use one of the 100's of legal tax shelters and go to colorado and the rest of the US(call us atlas if you will) can all give a collective shrug in a world with less luxury SUVs.

[bobdea]

http://www.moderateindependent.com/v1i15taxnumbers.htm

that about says it, here's the main important part for that site

For starters, look at what percentage of the income 50% of Americans combined earn: 13.81%.

Where is that number on the chart? He didn't put it there directly, but do the math: if the top 50% earned 86.19% of the income, that means that the other half of Americans - not a small group, we are talking half of us combined - earned only 13.81% of all the income in the nation. That is criminal. Half the nation is being made to work as slave laborers to support the other half.

Right, they don't pay much in taxes, but that is because they DON'T EARN ANYTHING. Look again at Rush's numbers. 1 out of 2 American tax filers takes home less than a pathetic $26,000 a year. And no, that is not even per person. Rush says plainly, "The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $26,000 and up in 1999." That means the bottom 50% of us - including couples filing jointly - made $25,999 or less per household.

Again, this is HALF OF US COMBINED making less than 14% of all the income, half of our households earning less than $26,000 each.

[Jack M]

exxon did not pay federal income tax in 2009

No corporation paid federal income tax in 2009 or any other year.

[bobdea]

No corporation paid federal income tax in 2009 or any other year.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

there's a few pages there, worth reading.

yes, corporations are required to pay a corporate income tax, most manage to avoid it with tricky accounting and using spin offs to legal shelter their income.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax_in_the_United_States

[Kent]

I don't know which is scarier, that fact that I can't find a SOLID answer, or that a "news" organization is WRONG!

According to this one they are WAY off:

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Jack, Kerry was closer, but still wrong.

Kent, please let us know if you have a more reputable source for this than MSNBC.

IMO, it's not a matter of being a reputable source, but rather how the read the articles and what they are communicating with the data.

To me, the article wasn't about the actual tax net paid, but the gross after taxes owed minus tax deductions and entitlements given. i.e. Nearly 50% of Americans aren't contributing to the burden, they are the burden. Taking more than they are giving. Don't get me wrong...there was a time in which I took more than I gave. That should be the exception, not the rule (trend).

It's a simple math problem....we can't sustain the spending. While many are saying "tax the rich more"...the challenge is that folks making $50k year with 4 kids aren't paying. Disturbing? I think so. I'm not saying it would be "fair" (gasp, I said it) to tax out of control, but at some point there needs to be some responsibility to pay for the services you receive. That starts to sound a bit like the health care debate.

I'd find it highly unlikely that anybody posting on Bomber would be in this group...if so, perhaps your priorties are out of wack.

I actually do have a plan on this one! The government should open up a box on the tax form for "righteous giving". Anyone with extra money to spare can offer to give to the government. I'm curious how many would participate. Everybody seems to like spending other people's money, yet will cling on to their own!

I'll probably stop my charitable contribution (10%) and volunteering ($500/year my company pays for my time) and toss that into my 401k....

Off soapbox. Yesterday I filed...so I'm a bit fired up. The 1st week or so a month I work, none of it is going into my pocket. I'm working for the government. Somewhere towards the end of week 2, I'm actually working for myself. Think about that next time you're working....

[Kent]

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

there's a few pages there, worth reading.

yes, corporations are required to pay a corporate income tax, most manage to avoid it with tricky accounting and using spin offs to legal shelter their income.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax_in_the_United_States

Let's take a step back here. Why does ANYONE pay taxes? What is the purpose and where is the money spent? I'm hoping you'll say "to keep the country running and provide basic infastruture, defense and services".

There are countries which have NO TAXES?

There are states with NO INCOME TAX?

How do they keep the lights on? They either make money (exports) or they have a tax on consumable items/services...

In the case of corporate tax, it's odd that you would expect them to pony up more burden. If that is the way you feel...then buy their stock, enjoy the dividend and then the government will tax you as an owner via earned income. It's wrong to tax twice.....

[Petrol]

Great Posts Kent!

either to few have a clue, or, to many are accomplices to and benificaries to the theft

[MUD]

IMO, it's not a matter of being a reputable source, but rather how the read the articles and what they are communicating with the data.

To me, the article wasn't about the actual tax net paid, but the gross after taxes owed minus tax deductions and entitlements given. i.e. Nearly 50% of Americans aren't contributing to the burden, they are the burden. Taking more than they are giving. Don't get me wrong...there was a time in which I took more than I gave. That should be the exception, not the rule (trend).

It's a simple math problem....we can't sustain the spending. While many are saying "tax the rich more"...the challenge is that folks making $50k year with 4 kids aren't paying. Disturbing? I think so. I'm not saying it would be "fair" (gasp, I said it) to tax out of control, but at some point there needs to be some responsibility to pay for the services you receive. That starts to sound a bit like the health care debate.

I'd find it highly unlikely that anybody posting on Bomber would be in this group...if so, perhaps your priorties are out of wack.

I actually do have a plan on this one! The government should open up a box on the tax form for "righteous giving". Anyone with extra money to spare can offer to give to the government. I'm curious how many would participate. Everybody seems to like spending other people's money, yet will cling on to their own!

I'll probably stop my charitable contribution (10%) and volunteering ($500/year my company pays for my time) and toss that into my 401k....

Off soapbox. Yesterday I filed...so I'm a bit fired up. The 1st week or so a month I work, none of it is going into my pocket. I'm working for the government. Somewhere towards the end of week 2, I'm actually working for myself. Think about that next time you're working....

I agree.

I just find it hard to take something serious when they can't even get the numbers right.

But, like I said. I agree.

[BobD]

Those who work, and pay no income tax because their wages are low, are contributing to the productivity of this country. They make it possible for others to make enough money to pay taxes. If we can't find a way to enable anyone who works hard to enjoy a living wage, then we have have to subsidize them with tax breaks. It would be better to raise the minimum wage to a level where people would be able t pay taxes, and still put basic food on the table.

Your point has philosophical merit Kent, but it would be better if everyone who works, earned enough to contribute.

From a conservative point of view, these safety nets are very important. Without them, the union movement would be very strong, and wages would be forced higher. As it is, the tax breaks for lower income families, are really a subsidy for business.

[Jack M]

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

there's a few pages there, worth reading.

yes, corporations are required to pay a corporate income tax, most manage to avoid it with tricky accounting and using spin offs to legal shelter their income.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax_in_the_United_States

Businesses do not pay income tax. They are charged an income tax, but they pass it along to their customers in the form of higher prices, and to their employees in the form of lower pay.

[BobD]

Businesses do not pay income tax. They are charged an income tax, but they pass it along to their customers in the form of higher prices, and to their employees in the form of lower pay.

What about the incentives to reinvest that taxes promote ?

[Jack M]

There are states with NO INCOME TAX?

How do they keep the lights on? They either make money (exports) or they have a tax on consumable items/services...

New Hampshire has no income tax and no sales tax. I believe their biggest tax is property tax. So basically, don't plan on retiring there unless you plan well in advance or are very wealthy.

[Jack M]

What about the incentives to reinvest that taxes promote ?

Competition drives reinvestment. Improve, evolve, or go out of business.

I am not against breaking up monopolies though.

[bobdea]

There are countries which have NO TAXES?

There are states with NO INCOME TAX?

.

yes, those countries are referred to as tax havens and their tax systems are set up to take advantage of companies and people who want to screw the system they live in. they tend to be small, often islands would be utterly ****ed if the US and a couple other countries changed it so it were not legal to use that type of tax shelter. even those places have taxes they are just lower, often they are just diverted to the people that actually live in them. now, you could mean a place like somalia where there are no real taxes, there's also no real governments at all either.

seven states have no real income tax, two of those are red states that actually turn a profit, the only two. excluding washington, ak and tx the rest are welfare recipients of federal money. if that's your best example it's a pretty easy argument for the other side because more than half literally live of the federal government on "hand outs" or welfare or whatever you want to call it.

then there's NH and TN, they only tax dividends even those two don't usually have a good bottom line in good times never mind bad.

[bobdea]

Competition drives reinvestment. Improve, evolve, or go out of business.

I am not against breaking up monopolies though.

****ing socialist!

[bobdea]

New Hampshire has no income tax and no sales tax. I believe their biggest tax is property tax. So basically, don't plan on retiring there unless you plan well in advance or are very wealthy.

yeah, NH gets you and gets you good where you least expect it. there's a ton of fees for anything you need to get done in NH. pain in the ass.

[Petrol]

What about the incentives to reinvest that taxes promote ?

Taxation does not promote behavior (excepting avoidance), taxes discourage behavior

[durace]

bobdea

yeah, NH gets you and gets you good where you least expect it. there's a ton of fees for anything you need to get done in NH. pain in the ass.

Really? I lived 20 years in MA, move to NH 18 years ago and disagree. What fees are you talking about?

[MUD]

Taxation does not promote behavior (excepting avoidance), taxes discourage behavior

This is more of a genuine question....

So do you think people would still make charitable donations that did not directly effect them in some way if it was not tax deductible?

I realize this is goofy thinking, but hey, it's the internet.

[Jack M]

So do you think people would still make charitable donations that did not directly effect them in some way if it was not tax deductible?

If taxes were lower, absolutely. If taxes were the same as they are now, but then donations suddenly became non-deductable, the answer is no.

As it is, we will be cutting back on voluntary charity this year, because more "involuntary charity" is being taken from us.

[bobdea]

bobdea

yeah, NH gets you and gets you good where you least expect it. there's a ton of fees for anything you need to get done in NH. pain in the ass.

Really? I lived 20 years in MA, move to NH 18 years ago and disagree. What fees are you talking about?

property tax, excise tax(not sure if that's what they call it in NH), get hit pretty hard on paperwork(ask for a reprint of a lost license for example costs 2.5 times what MA charges or register a car)

overall, from the numbers I can find the rate in NH is 1.4% lower than MA then you have to consider what's better in MA and also that you're probably going to make a hell of a lot more money. same goes for most states with a higher tax rate.

now, compare that to maine though, high taxes combined with a lack of decent employment and there's problems, that said, having lived in ME for almost eight years and NH for a very short time I don't thing either one is much better off than the other. MA is better off than both.