Unobtanium, obtained, well sorta

[lowrider]

Home brew with aluminum hardware.

[jp1]

Bruce / Snowman do you know the weight of the Apex System?

Does it incorporate any type of Isolation?

[Bruce Varsava]

About 4.5 lbs with all hardware. I'll give a full report once I get a bit more time.

Liked it in GS, SL model would need to be modified to adapt for more board flex. The Asym board really worked well as planned. Since we were running a blueish hill in softer snow for the GS I added a TD1 bumper on the front of the Apex plate over the softer side of the Asym board . This gave me more to push against. If it were steeper and harder snow, I would have left it without the bumpers. Nice to have the adjustability. I just chickened out in my second runs in both races and found out that the extra weight just likes to be ridden hard as it should but I was not up to the task. For freecarve it is also a nice ride but the extra weight seems to cancel out any energy savings you get through a smoother ride. All in all very effective tool to make you go a bit faster but the user needs to be up to a certain level before it really will make a useful difference. Also your board can be a bit stiffer. Built the Asym board just a touch stiffer than I would normally and it worked pretty good with or without the plate. I could have still gone a bit stiffer in the front but may then give up nice the soft touch on harder snow.

BV

[Gabe T]

I'll give a full report once I get a bit more time.

What's the story behind the Asym core?

Gabe

[jp1]

Bruce, Thanks for the weight information! I know you wrote: I'll give a full report once I get a bit more time, so I can wait on that.

The other question I had (if you can answer it then) was, Does it incorporate any type of Isolation, to isolate the board from rider? Or is it attached directly, through metal hardware?

Your statement,"For freecarve it is also a nice ride but the extra weight seems to cancel out any energy savings you get through a smoother ride," leads me to believe it does, unless the separation alone between the two surfaces (board & plate) helps to create a smoother ride?

[KingCrimson]

Oh hell yeah it's isolated!

Read a bit more in the other threads about it. It's hinged and it has a slider.

[jp1]

KingCrimson, "Oh hell yeah it's isolated!"

I've read all that's available. I see it has slider (front) and what appears to be a pivot point (rear) I'm guessing what you are calling hinged?

How do these provide any isolation?

I understand how the plate 'floats', independently above the board, allowing the board to flex under it, but don't see where any means of isolating the plate from the board.

If the attaching points are metal, any vibrations, chatter, negative feedback from terrain etc., will be transmitted through them into the plate.

Example: if you drilled a hole and installed a bolt & nut through the 'motor mount' in an automobile, the vibration from the 'engine' would be transmitted through the hardware into the chassis.

Just asking (anyone) what am I missing?

Thanks -- jp1

[KingCrimson]

I see what you mean now..Sorry.

The plate is also pivoted at the front.

Chatter isn't really the same as a lone jolt from the snow, you can see in chatter tracks that the board is oscillating from cambered to decambered. The friction dampening (and weight) afforded by the Apex design slows down the chatter.

In my opinion, having the board able flex independently from the plate does indeed constitute isolation.

Your engine mount analogy doesn't make any sense for plate designs, you're speaking more to TD1 vs. TD2/3.

[bjvircks]

Your engine mount analogy doesn't make any sense for plate designs, you're speaking more to TD1 vs. TD2/3.

the comparison makes PERFECT sense when TRYING TO EXPLAIN the concept of isolation.

[KingCrimson]

the comparison makes PERFECT sense when TRYING TO EXPLAIN the concept of isolation.

I will fully admit to being a punkass knowitall who is infrequently correct, but in speaking to the issue of chatter, I think the Apex does provide isolation.

In chatter, the board has a rapidly changing radius, from flat to heavily decambered when it makes contact with the snow. It seems I don't understand isolation, so what would you call the process of maintaining your stance width and shin angles irrespective of the board radius through the use of sliders and pivots?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I also don't know if it makes sense.

"Vibrations" and "negative feedback from the terrain" that he mentioned aren't really a serious problem of the board vibrating. Those are problems that stem from the board oscillating across its length - cambering and decambering.

That's exactly what the plate was designed to deal with. That's what its "isolation" addresses (hinge/slider).

greg

[lowrider]

Can we assume that a small number of people are interested in plates now? Would anyone commit now to the purchase of a plate system if one were available at a reasonable cost? What would you consider a reasonable cost? $400, $500 , $750, $1000. Would you like the plate and hardware as one unit or plate and hardware as two components .I know everyone has their favorite colour does the hardware need to be available in a variety of colours ,the plate custom top sheet to match your favorite board? If you want to post your wants or needs the tinkerers are busy working on next years possibilities. I will not profess that one plate will satisfy all your needs as in boards the variations will be many. Commit to try one soon and the endless task of deciding what works best for you will haunt you like those TD3 sidewinders do me.:lol:

[bjvircks]

King Crimson...

Isolation can have several aspects. What I think was being discussed is what might be considered 'classical' up and down isolation. Think of this like a car body and its wheels. When going over a bumpy road the wheels travel up and down following the contours of the bumps while the car body remains fairly stable. The suspension system 'isolates' the car body. I've worked on mounts for avionics systems using isolators custom tailored to equipment weight, excitation frequency and amplitude.

The isolation that I think you are discussing is more akin to decoupling. While it is a form of isolation, the mechanism is different. The wild changes in board shape during chatter are directly coupled into the rider's legs when using a basic rigid binding hard mounted to a board. A plate system with one or more sliders will decouple the plate flatness from the board camber changes and by doing so will impart a high degree of 'smoothness'. But this is quite a bit different from isolation.

I'm just shooting from the hip, here. I'd have to dig up some of my old textbooks like 'Kinematics and Dynamics' and 'Design of Machine Elements' in order to quote chapter and verse of exact definitions.

[KingCrimson]

King Crimson...

Isolation can have several aspects. What I think was being discussed is what might be considered 'classical' up and down isolation. Think of this like a car body and its wheels. When going over a bumpy road the wheels travel up and down following the contours of the bumps while the car body remains fairly stable. The suspension system 'isolates' the car body. I've worked on mounts for avionics systems using isolators custom tailored to equipment weight, excitation frequency and amplitude.

The isolation that I think you are discussing is more akin to decoupling. While it is a form of isolation, the mechanism is different. The wild changes in board shape during chatter are directly coupled into the rider's legs when using a basic rigid binding hard mounted to a board. A plate system with one or more sliders will decouple the plate flatness from the board camber changes and by doing so will impart a high degree of 'smoothness'. But this is quite a bit different from isolation.

I'm just shooting from the hip, here. I'd have to dig up some of my old textbooks like 'Kinematics and Dynamics' and 'Design of Machine Elements' in order to quote chapter and verse of exact definitions.

Thanks BJ, that's exactly what I was asking.

It's also what I suspected...Both types of isolation are one in the same.

To use your car analogy for isolation, we'll call the Apex plate the "body" of our car.

The sliders afford the same sliding movement as the multiple leaves in a leaf spring, and the hinges are the same as leaf mounts in a car. The board itself is the leaf spring. By your definition, this is an isolated system.

I think you may have been ignoring the sidecut and camber on a board. Irrespective of the manner in which you apply force to the board, (to cover my ass in this argument, in NORMAL manners you'd experience in a BX race) it will always de-camber. Landing jumps, chattering, hitting moguls, weighting and unweighting are all analogous to bumps on a road.

Theo

[bjvircks]

I don't think you are getting it.... and I'm not inclined to pursue this any further tonight. Maybe some other time.

[KingCrimson]

I don't think you are getting it.... and I'm not inclined to pursue this any further tonight. Maybe some other time.

Since I'm so off base, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain where my comparison faulters. I don't want to be a dick about this..The odds are against me anyway. I still feel I'm correct and you're not understanding me.

Every single component of the isolation mechanism you described can be found in an Apex plate, performing the exact same role. The contact points are wheels, the board is the leaf spring, the apex plate's hardware is the suspension bracket, the plate is the chassis, and your bindings are the seat. What am I not grasping?

[lowrider]

How about rubber gives isolation (cushioning) Shackles on a spring provide decoupling.The decoupling on the front of a plate gives the feeling of isolation but does not entirely cushion chatter . It lets the board deal with it without your interference

[KingCrimson]

If we're not considering the board to provide vertical compliance, then we're back to the car comparison being irrelevant. In this matter I'm not ignoring the suspending properties of the board. To use BJ's original post, we are always placing the sandbags between widely spaced sawhorses. This is, in effect, the same as a car's suspension.

A floating truck cab would be the kind of isolation you're talking about. This is not how BJ defined isolation.

Regardless of the plate compliance, aren't we already accomplishing this enough with TD3 elastomers?

Additionally, it depends on what we're isolating ourselves from. In my plate design, I assumed it was ultimately isolation from the snow, not the board. Mechanically mine's considerably different from the Apex, no clue how it will ride. Poorly is a good guess..Especially if the other proven plate designs used a different philosophy!

Without decoupling ourselves from the board, we can't use it as an isolation mechanism. Isolation isn't necessarily built into a decoupler plate through something like an elastomer, but it is intrinsic to the design.

[lowrider]

Kingcrimson if you want to continue this don't think of springs as providing up and down movement . Think of them transfering up and down motion to back and forth motion as the shackle does at the end of the spring.The sliding mechanism in the hardware allows the board to contort without rider interference good or bad, depending on the circumstance. This is going to be a big issue in riders preference when it comes to decide how much isolation you really desire from you plate set up, introduce a soft flex or stiff flex in the plate and you can see the differences multiply.The pivot point of the plate is only there to prevent failure through fatigue of the fasteners, the sliding mechanism must have an element of pivot as well. Once you ride one these features, isolation and decoupling are very noticeable. But different.

[lowrider]

If your plate has an element of hinge and slide "off the board" it will be an improvement over previous designs.

[KingCrimson]

The pivot point of the plate is only there to prevent failure through fatigue of the fasteners.

Are you sure about this?

Since you seem to have made a plate yourself, I'm sure you understand the geometry..

As the sagitta of an arc increases, so does the angle between the arc and the chord. Let's call your stance width x. If the Apex plate is designed to provide a stable platform, isn't it a major objective to maintain x? Or do I misunderstand the plate?

Obviously x is a chord when the board is bent, and presents an angle to the arc defined by the board.

In my math, the degree to which it pivots would be much greater than could be afforded by fasteners, fatigue or not. Unless we're talking about something like a spherical nut, fasteners shouldn't afford any pivoting anyway.

Sorry..don't know what you mean by "off the board" That is unless you mean the plate will slide entirely off the board, isolating myself a piste length...Which is always a possibility. ;)

[lowrider]

Sorry should have said pivot point of hardware. As far as a stable platform is concerned it is only as stable as what the tail of the snowboard encounters since the hardware floats (slides) at the front only. The back of the plate feels everything the rear of the board does which is less than what the front encounters since the front has flattened most of what it encounters. The impact felt by you legs at X is modified by the ability of the plate to transfer shock to the more cushioned load at the rear??? Yes off the board.

[jp1]

KingCrimson,"Regardless of the plate compliance, aren't we already accomplishing this enough with TD3 elastomers?" Exactly, IF everyone were using TD3's!

'Metal' board construction with the inclusion of different materials (like rubber) has accomplished the same 'isolation' / 'dampening' affects, to a degree.

So possibly better yet, what if we carried it to the next level, and incorporated these Isolators (elastomers) into the Plate System.

[Bruce Varsava]

I did Asym cores years ago and actually last raced on a SL one at the last USASA races I did 8 yrs ago. The core is thinned out in front from heel to tip and in the rear from toe to tail. Conversely it is thickened a bit from front toe to tip and rear heel to tail. This reduces the amount you have to move fore and aft to pressure it effectively . Actually works quite well as another reason I did it is I can injure my back if I try to manipulate my body for max pressuring in toe side turns so the softer rear toe side will allow for a more consistent turn if I ease the pressure off. On the front heel turn I do not need to pressure as far forwards to make it initiate smoothly. Pain in the ass to build but a fun unique ride.

The Apex plate was nice as it allowed me to tweak the nose pressure required . Board design with the plate seems to be make it a bit stiffer in mid to rear and the nose can be softer as you can stiffen it to taste with the plate. I used TD1 bumpers installed into threaded holes I put in throughout the extended nose area . This way I could move them around to suit the conditions. You can effectively make your nose Asym by using just the plate and bumpers.

BV

[bjvircks]

So Bruce...

Any chance of some close-up photos of the apex brackets that mount to the board and how the pins are fixed into the composite plate??

I think I've got a fair idea of what to expect. I expect the brackets to be a wide, shallow, flat bottomed 'U'. Front and rear brackets will be almost identical but one set will be slotted and the other will have tight tolerance clearance holes. Two brackets at front, two at rear. I expect the plate underside to have four (2 front, 2 rear) composite bulges built up to provide attachment sleeves for 2" long hardened steel pins to slide into.

So... how far off am I??

Brad Vircks... the other BV