Is everyone getting the H1N1 vaccine?

[boarderboy]

craven Lovers of Servitude

notwithstanding, I got the H1N1 vaccine last week, and I'm damn glad I did.

I'm very much alive, mean, and opinionated as ever.

Here's to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Immunity

BB

[Dr D]

What IS a "Deadly Disease"?

As of October 11, 2009 the World Health Organization reported that, worldwide, there have been more than 399,232 laboratory confirmed cases of pandemic influenza H1N1, and over 4,735 deaths.

Folks, that is 4,735 deaths in the ENTIRE world, not just the US!

Most all of these deaths occurred in immunocompromised individuals.

Now I do not want to diminish the value of any life, but what is needed here is a critical perspective.

Malaria kills ONE MILLION people EVERY YEAR, worldwide. Death is a direct result of the malaria infection.

So every DAY 2,740 people are dropping dead from malaria, whereas less than 13 people per day died from the swine flu in the past year, worldwide (if you disregard that most died not as a direct result of the swine flu virus, but from having poor immune function which led to serious secondary infections and complications).

Did you ever wonder why malaria doesn't get much press coverage? Doesn't it strike you as odd that more isn't done to clamp down on such a deadly disease if governments are talking about quarantine centers at airports and suspending personal choice and freedom over the swine flu?

Confusion and Misdirection IS at Work. But Why?

A thorough , comparative analysis of several flu pandemics has been published in the prestigious British Medical Journal, that gives evidence that the H1N1 swine flu is of "the same subtype as seasonal H1N1 that has been circulating since 1977."3 The author points out the substantial confusion between the high public attention the present H1N1 scare is receiving and the very low level of scientific certainty that H1N1 is more severe than other seasonal influenza.

With the facts at hand, it is easy to detect a pattern of misdirection and purposeful confusion.

ITS ABOUT THE MONEY

"The vaccine market is booming," says Bruce Carlson, spokesperson at market research firm Kalorama, which publishes an annual survey of the vaccine industry. "It's an enormous growth area for pharmaceuticals at a time when other areas are not doing so well," he says, noting that the pipeline for more traditional blockbuster drugs such as Lipitor and Nexium has thinned.

As always with pandemic flus, taxpayers are footing the $1.5 billion check for the 250 million swine flu vaccines that the government has ordered so far and will be distributing free to doctors, pharmacies and schools. In addition, Congress has set aside more than $10 billion this year to research flu viruses, monitor H1N1's progress and educate the public about prevention.

Drugmakers pocket most of the revenues from flu sales, with Sanofi-Pasteur, Glaxo Smith Kline and Novartis cornering most of the market.

But some say it's not just drugmakers who stand to benefit. Doctors collect copayments for special office visits to inject shots, and there have been assertions that these doctors actually profit handsomely from these vaccinations.

[Dr D]

There is NO safety data or precedent for receiving 3-4 flu shots in one season.

Even though the media and government pronouncements sound confident and authoritative it’s vital to realize that the current recommendations by doctors and health officials are unprecedented, and highly experimental.

Some people, including children under the age of 10, are urged to get as many as four flu shots this year: two shots for seasonal flu and one or two more for swine flu, depending on a few different factors.

Never before have this many flu shots been given in a single season, and there is absolutely no information about the safety of doing so.

[Dr D]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article6690010.ece

[Dr D]

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[Dr D]

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[Dr D]

I would be happy to forward the white paper on H1N1 to whoever would like to read it. A white paper is a compilation of a large body of research on a given subject.

nevermind here is the link

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20427997/Swine-Flu-Whitepaper

its a long read but the facts are all conveniently there and the sources are all well cited

[Dr D]

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http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/12/05/Swine-Flu-Shot-Side-Effects-Beginning-to-Take-Their-Toll.aspx

[Zone]

To be balanced, you should also post all the people that either died from H1N1, or that are admitted for O2 or ventilator (with or without sequelae), they don't usually get the benefit of the media or youtube. And if you start asking around, there should be plenty of those...

Balance, it's all about balance...when you start riding the board.

[MUD]

Here is more "balance".

My question is with all the deaths from the flu each year, what strain kills how many people? H1N1 is a specific strain, lumping all the rest (9 strains as far as I can tell) under "the flu" is not very scientific.

The other thing you NEED to look at is the age groups effected. "The flu" typically effects who? H1N1 effects who? Those who have young kids know why I ask this question.

[Zone]

Children:

http://www.euro.who.int/influenza/AH1N1/20091202_1

H1N1 vs. 'regular' flu

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/laboratory04_12_2009/en/index.html

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_12_04/en/index.html

This PDF is interesting, if you look at Canada.

http://new.paho.org/hq/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=3783&Itemid=

50/50 men/women

Severe illness with admission (4800 cases of hospital admission and confirmed H1N1): median age 27 and 50% are otherwise healthy

Death 192: median age 54 and ~30 % are otherwise healthy (~60% have another illness that presumably increase their risks).

Vaccine side effects:

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/vacc/addeve-eng.php

Severe reaction (+/- admission): 135, anaphylaxis 48, death from anaphylaxis 1.

One might argue what about long term problem with flu shot?

One might also argue what long term effect with hospitalization/ventilation?

So for most people on this board reading this post, chances are you're not going to die from it. But looking at 5000 admission for an otherwise relatively young and healthy looking group, you're probably going to feel pretty sick even if you don't need admission

Again, if you are an olympian reading this, you can't afford to be sick during or just before competition (esp. when thousands of people are gathered in relatively close quarters). You see this at every winter olympics and just shake your head that so and so can't compete because of the flu.

Hope that helps

[BobD]

I thought the problem with the H1N1 flu, was not so much it's current form, but it's potential to mutate into something much more deadly. From this I understood that the real benefit of the vaccination program was to slow down the chances of a deadly mutation occurring. Apparently, this is what happened in 1918, when early cases were mild, but the virus later became more deadly.

BobD

[Zone]

Dr. D, by the way I completely agree with you that's it's all about the money, with a slightly different slant.

A lot more money should be used to prevent/treat malaria, cholera, hunger, children death. However third world country/people don't have the money to pay, so there is no interest there. Instead it's about preventing diseases of the rich (wrinkles, cholesterol and diabetes in particular).

H1N1 if mutating to a more nasty form, we'd be in for potential disaster money or not.

Having gone through SARS around the Toronto area, we don't want a repeat. Unfortunately/fortunately H1N1 is not too nasty so the vaccine seems like overkill, but is it?

When is the snow coming so we can ride instead of type?

[Dr D]

To be balanced, you should also post all the people that either died from H1N1, or that are admitted for O2 or ventilator (with or without sequelae), they don't usually get the benefit of the media or youtube. And if you start asking around, there should be plenty of those...

Balance, it's all about balance...when you start riding the board.

Absolutely, however there is such a glut of hysterical info on the news I probably don't need to provide any.

My biggest gripe is that the numbers are being skewed in the name of selling more vaccine. Everything I am reading about how the numbers are compiled tells me that we can't trust WHO, CDC et al. Its become nearly impossible to tell which strain killed which patient since all flu-like and pneumonia-like deaths are being lumped together. I guarantee that deaths due to the vaccine will also be lumped into that group. We will see a spike in the numbers soon now that the vaccine program is in full swing.:(

As responsible physicians we should be questioning the way our "science" is being bought and paid for.

[Dr D]

Those of us that even bother to read it! many get their "research numbers" from the cute mini skirted pharma sales girl unfortunately:rolleyes:

[Zone]

Not sure about the numbers in the state.

Locally, or in Canada, we don't test for H1N1 /influenza in the community.

However those who are sick enough to get admitted ( and you have to be pretty sick to be admitted up here), do get tested for H1N1 or regular influenza.

So far it's been over 90% H1N1.

Problem to say that H1N1 causing the death is you have to remember that influenza does not necessarily cause death (although H1N1 seems to be at times, hitting the lungs harder than usual), but more often, as for many viral illnesses, it suppresses your natural immunity and it's the secondary bacterial infections /complications of ventilation etc...that kills.

The big producers of vaccine are making $$$ out of the H1N1. However, if you own mutual funds, there is a chance you are also making money.

The day where we have everything open source and not-for-profit, the world will be an infinitely better place.

[boarderboy]

The day where we have everything open source and not-for-profit, the world will be an infinitely better place.

Truer words have ne'er been spoken!!

BB

[Dr D]

Main reason I don't own mutual funds LOL

[Dr D]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=118262

[MUD]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=118262

Feed the hysteria!!!!

Sounds like that site is pretty good at it!

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96299

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107588

Interesting site just the same....

[Zone]

Everyone has an opinion and that's fine.

However, a sign of a good physician/health care provider is to know when to refer/when things are beyond your scope of practice, and separate personal opinion/belief and professional responsibilities.

I don't own any share of drug companies, I don't get any kickback from drug companies. I don't sleep with the pretty drug reps. I rather not give the vaccine myself and let Public Health handle it all (and the kids would love me much more:1luvu:). However, it is part of the job.

I do refer my patients to chiropractors and naturopaths when appropriate.

Interesting that positions of the canadian chiropractors is somewhat different than their american counterparts on vaccination issues (canadians support officially, americans are on the fence)

http://www.chiropracticcanada.ca/en-us/AboutUs/TheCCA/PositionStatements/VaccinationandImmunization.aspx

The CCA accepts vaccination as a cost-effective and clinically efficient public health preventative procedure for certain viral and microbial diseases, as demonstrated by the scientific community.

The public responsibility for vaccination and immunization is neither within the chiropractic scope of practice, nor a chiropractic specific issue. Public health programming and literature provide appropriate sources of information for patient education regarding vaccination and immunization.

American position:

As of 1998, the official policy of the ACA regarding vaccination reads as follows (that of the ICA being practically identical):

"Resolved, that the ACA recognize and advise the public that: Since the scientific community acknowledges that the use of vaccines is not without risk, the American Chiropractic Association supports each individual's right to freedom of choice in his/her own health care based on an informed awareness of the benefits and possible adverse effects of vaccination. The ACA is supportive of a conscience clause or waiver in compulsory vaccination laws thereby maintaining an individual's right to freedom of choice in health care matters and providing an alternative/elective course of action regarding vaccination." (Available at: www.amerchiro.org/shared/pub-poli.htm.)

Anyway, more food for thoughts...I'm not a black and white type of guy, so the more discussion, the better.

[Dr D]

Informed consent is a pillar of healthcare ethics.

In the States at least, it isn't even given a nod when it comes to vaccines. Personally I won't be getting this or any other vaccine. Professionally I work at educating my patients on the risks vs benefits. I find that most of my patients are told they have to get it and its perfectly safe with nothing to be concerned

about. All one has to do is read the package insert to find that isn't true.

All of you will make this decision for yourselves. My goal is to hopefully trigger your critical thinking skills a bit. Ask questions and don't accept dogma for an answer. You are entitled to full disclosure.

I also refer when appropriate. If you walk in to my office while stroking out you will get a helicopter ride to the ER. IT's happened twice since I started practice. New patient comes in for headaches is diagnosed as having a stroke and lifeflighted to the hospital. Both patients are in good health and back in my office for other issues from time to time. found a few broken bones and hard tissue pathologies over the years as well.

It varies from state to state but in Montana at least I am a licensed gateway physician. I have a responsibility to evaluate and refer if necessary.

[Dr D]

Feed the hysteria!!!!

Sounds like that site is pretty good at it!

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96299

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107588

Interesting site just the same....

:eplus2:WND isn't particularly picky when it comes to sources but it does pick up on foreign news articles that arent often seen in the states.

use your critical thinking skills to navigate successfully through the good ole internet.

[kjl]

Informed consent is a pillar of healthcare ethics.

In the States at least, it isn't even given a nod when it comes to vaccines. Personally I won't be getting this or any other vaccine. Professionally I work at educating my patients on the risks vs benefits.

I am actually kind of flabbergasted to hear somebody in the medical field reject vaccines or counsel against them.

1) I am a believer in personal rights and informed consent - however, vaccination is more about just yourself. For example, if you have a highly contagious disease like ebola you are forced to go into quarantine, despite the trampling of your personal rights and informed consent, because it is for the greater good that you do so.

2) Protection from the great illnesses of humanity relies mostly on herd immunity. Since almost everybody is immunized, there aren't that many carriers of, say, typhoid fever, walking around, so you are highly unlikely to catch typhoid fever, whether or not you are personally immunized, but this relies on the fact that everybody else is. This is sort of like the prisoner's dilemma. The analogy would be: if everybody is standing patiently in line, you could certainly get to the front faster by being a jerk and pushing in at the front, but this is only because everybody else is playing by the rules. If everybody thought as you did, it would be a giant clusterf***. You are almost guaranteed not to get typhoid fever because everybody else is playing by the rules and are immunized - thus there are not waves of typhoid fever epidemics washing through the country to get you sick.

3) The risk/reward benefit as applied singly to individuals is flawed, due to point #2. Yes, there may be a slight benefit for an individual to avoid a vaccine, due to side effects of the vaccine (though, unrelated side note: autism is not one of them). However, the real risk/reward is between 1) our current way of life plus a slight risk of vaccine side effects and 2) life (just a hundred years ago) when the population was continually and regularly ravaged by smallpox, typhoid, consumption, polio, yellow fever, measels, mumps, etc., when you were expected to live until your mid 30's.

Side note: Herd immunity doesn't need 100% of a population to be effective. Most diseases seem to need ~85% of a population to be immunized. I would be OK with a fairer way to determine which 15% get to avoid vaccinations, like choosing people who are higher risk for the side effects to avoid them. However, letting people choose on their own seems like the wrong answer. I saw a few months ago a report that, despite the fact that people who are opting out of vaccinating their children comprise such a small percentage of the population, they tend to live near each other due to the demographics of who chooses to do this, dropping the percentage below/near that critical number locally, and have resulted in localized outbreaks of diseases that were mostly eradicated long ago.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immunization29-2009mar29,0,3148179.story

[boarderboy]

My wife'll be getting it ASAP, as did our teen son many weeks ago.

I must say that should I suffer some ill fate because of my own innoculation, I could hardly ask for a more beautiful Angel of Death than the Target pharmacy tech who pricked my arm. Almost be worth it...

BB