Need help with equipment selection!

[BryanZ]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, my name is Bryan. I never been on an alpine board and need some advice on a purchase. I've been snowboarding for about 20 years, all this time I have only enjoyed carving and speed. I was never a fan of freestyle snowboarding, despite 20 years of using the wrong boards.

Anyway I pretty much only board on the east coast, killington and okemo are my most frequent mountains. As most of you know, ice is very apparent in that part of the country. I need a setup that will allow me to go extremely fast, and give me some confidence on the ice.

I have read all the FAQ's, so I'm not completely uninformed. I think I've narrowed it down to a long metal board with extremely stiff boots.

I realize a long board and stiff boot are difficult for beginners, but I would prefer to learn the hard way and not buy new equipment once I get the hang of it.

I have no idea how long of board to get. I am 6'4" and about 190 lbs. I'm definatly not getting any skinnier lol. My only goal really is to be able to go as fast as possible and be in control. I would assume I need atleast a 190cm?

My other question is, what type of bindings and boots to get. I would really prefer to use ski boots. I know these can be used, but what sort of bindings allow you to use these?

[KingCrimson]

Try to give The Carvefather a call. He might be able to get you started on some gear and will more than likely give you loads of pointers.

http://www.thecarvefather.com/

Also- ski boots are definitely stiff, but not in the right way. You're best off with snowboard hardboots and a Bomber BTS system so that you can pick a different flex every day.

Another possible source of info/gear is the Starting Gate. Definitely try and hook up with local riders before diving into big badass boards and super stiff boots, you might just find you like some nice supple boots and a short and turny board.

http://startingate.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=TS&Category_Code=ASB

[BlueB]

Almost all of the plate bindings would work with ski boots. Do some research on what ski boots - some work better then others. Some ideas:

Dalbello CarveX, CRX, Reflex, Krypton

Raichle Flexon

Technica TNT

Why do you want to go so long and stiff?

[Guest]

So you're 6'4" and you want to use ski boots. That will require either a wider board than it seems you want, crazy high angles, or both.

Ski boots just do not perform well on snowboards. Period. There are some people here who will disagree with me on that, but they suck. Totally the wrong flex, and seeing as you have one edge to balance on, not two, you want something with more give than they have to offer.

[BlueB]

Ski boots just do not perform well on snowboards. Period.

That's probably why 30% of the Canadian team is on Kryptons ;)

Now for real, why you want the ski boots? They are only for people wanting to switch between skis and board without changing the boots and for freeks like me and those few racers... There are some good stiff snowboard h/boots out there.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Ski boots can be great,but if you have big feet then the sole length of most ski boots will make for extreme angles.I use Raichle Freezone skiboots which happen to be exactly like Raichle 324 board boots but with a din sole.Love them.By far the worst and most unforgiving boot I ever had was the UPZ,but some people that are less aggressive than I am love them...go figure. The Dalbello boots are great.Whenever someone tells you that a component that many others use effectively sucks period it is something you should take with a grain of salt.Period.

[BryanZ]

thanks for the replies, actually the only reason I want to use ski boots is because I already have access to a few sets of them, so basically, it's because of money.

I got the impression that longer boards will be better for speed and holding an edge in not so perfect terrain. I've just been reading, I have no real experience.

I do have semi-large feet, about 11.5-12.

I know literally know nothing, and am looking to be steered in the right direction.

I'm 6'4, I want to go extremely fast in icey terrain. I would like to start off with equipment that an advanced alpine boarder would use, so I don't have to upgrade in the future.

I basically want someone to spell it out for me what I should be looking for.

[mr_roboteye]

Riding in ski boots is not something I would do, but when I tried it once, the three things that I hated were: they're too stiff, The cuff is nowhere near high enough, and you can't adjust and lock in the forward lean. HOWEVER the ski boots Boris mentioned have higher cuffs, flex more softly, and have adjustable forward lean.

Being how tall you are, you're bound to have pretty big feet. (like size 12?) Using a ski boot in any of the bindings BlueB mentioned may not be possible because they won't go big enough.

Going strictly on what you said about not wanting to upgrade in the future and going extremely fast on icy terrain, a board like this would probably be up your alley, it's waist width is more suited to someone with bigger feet. I wouldn't even consider buying this board because it's way too wide for me (sz 8.5 feet). I like a waist around 190mm. 235mm is pretty freakin wide though.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23717

The best thing though is to get some boots (whatever they may be) and try to schmooze your way into riding / trying as many boards as you can so you can figure out what you really like. There's a couple of guys here with pretty big feet. DaveEspi and Divebomber are the only ones that come to mind now. Maybe make a thread that says something like need big footed rider advice, etc. because there are challenges you may face with equipment selection that the majority of us may not be familiar with.

later,

Dave R.

[KingCrimson]

thanks for the replies, actually the only reason I want to use ski boots is because I already have access to a few sets of them, so basically, it's because of money.

I got the impression that longer boards will be better for speed and holding an edge in not so perfect terrain. I've just been reading, I have no real experience.

I do have semi-large feet, about 11.5-12.

I know literally know nothing, and am looking to be steered in the right direction.

I'm 6'4, I want to go extremely fast in icey terrain. I would like to start off with equipment that an advanced alpine boarder would use, so I don't have to upgrade in the future.

I basically want someone to spell it out for me what I should be looking for.

In my opinion, finding a local rider who can help you out trying some gear is your best bet, so that you don't spend piles of money on something that you just have to turn over again.

Have fun out there and be careful going fast on that ice, will ya? :D

[Silver Bullet]

I got the impression that longer boards will be better for speed and holding an edge in not so perfect terrain. I've just been reading, I have no real experience.

I do have semi-large feet, about 11.5-12.

You can haul on any length of board. I'm 6'2 190 lbs. and selected an F2 Silberpfeil 173cm and an F2 Speedster 183cm board when I first started. The boards feel different enough. The 173 at first was easier to ride in softer snow at lower speeds with larger crowds. The 183 has to be ridden fast to turn it and feels more damp on hard snow. Knowing what I know now, I would pick a metal board. They are much easier on the legs. The difference is like riding a full suspension mountain bike or a road bike. The metal just feels soft, smooth and cuddly at speed, the non metal is more snappy or lively and will pop you between turns.

I can imagine that a metal board would easier and quicker to build confidence on, but you might not learn proper technique???.

As for the foot size, my feet are the same size and I sized down to a 28.5 cm boot. The angle I have to ride to eliminate boot out are between 65 and 70 degrees, which seem to be pretty steep. I could imagine the with ski boots the angles could be 75-80 degrees because the length of the boot sole is so much longer.

I had been riding for 24 years before getting a full blown setup. It does take a bit of adjusting. Don't give up on the first day if it does not feel right, because it will on the second day;-)

[Jack M]

The only reason to start out in ski boots is if you are also an avid skier and want to switch back and forth during the day.

Deeluxe Track 700 - stiff but not too stiff.

Bomber TD3 (will work with ski boots if you go that way)

A Coiler, Donek, or Prior metal board about 180-185 and at least 19.5cm wide.

Please note that a very fast board and an ice board are two different things. For serious ice you want something shorter with a shorter sidecut radius so that you can get turns around without building up too much speed. A fast board will be longer and have a radius north of 13m.

Eventually you'll need both, but it sounds like you'll be able to start with the fast board, *IF* you can already *CARVE* your softboot gear. Can you do the Norm? And carve the downhill edge?

If the answer to those questions are no, or "well, kinda" then you should start on something medium like a 175.

[Hotbeans]

I'm in PA, am getting my second season under my belt, and am coming off of 7 years freeriding/20+ skiing. I've got two boards: first was a coiler 164 SLC and now a Virus WCR 170. I've been getting time on both (in same day) on hard snow/ice. (My ski boots were stifffff, so I opted for a trip out to boulder to see Bola at Allboardsports for the boots/bindings, and some time up at winter park to demo some boards. Having Bola (and his shop) as a resource for a greenhorn was a huge benefit as I could try on any variety of boot to check for proper fit as they are all somewhat different. He has stacks of different types of bindings and more than enough boards to keep a tour bus full of carvers happy.)

All that aside, the coiler is a quick turning board that is damp, as fast as you like it to go, and light. It's not metal, but it's really f'n fun and, having buried the nose a few times and endo'ing, I'm thinking I'm glad it's NOT metal because of the durability issue! (i'm 170lbs).

The Virus is a freight train! It SOUNDS like a freight train going fast on ice..and holds a line like it's on a rail. It's not very forgiving if your technique is off a bit. I was having a blast on it yesterday (hardpack, blue ice spots) and had girls on the lift all screaming at me like I was some rock star. It can easily turn a 10 ft radius carve or draw it out at any time into a large gs carve.

I'd suggest trying on hardboots specifically for carving and demo'ing as many boards as you can. Start with a shorter, faster carving board. The longer boards will lock you on the edge and not let go as you're heading for the tree's.

[mackDan]

Bryan,

Talk to the guys out east adn filter what everybody says just a bit. There are a lot of "big board" types here and if you start too big you'll probably slow down your learning curve. Talk to a few guys in your area and see if you can borrow a board, or shop for a good used one. I started on a 164 race board at Stowe as a rental and it was little long (165#). I rode a 157, then 164's, and now have 160-170 length boards. I'm in at 175# now (beer!!!)

As for board length, don't get all wound up in thinking you need a big board cause your a big guy. If you ride a 190 twin tip now, a 155 will have nearly the same effective edge length. Its your weight not your height which is going to flex the board and make it carve. So don't be afraid to start out on a 160-165 board, learn how to make good carves and then move up in board length. I'll be if you start on a 190 alpine board, you'll still be dropping the tail and skidding lots of turns for a couple seasons.

Also you're riding the great icey east, so you'll want more edge bite, more edge loading, not less. So maybe look for a good 160-165 Slalom board to learn on and you can still ride that after you learn and get htat longer board so you cna be like the rest of the macho dudes here. Slalom boards can go plenty fast, and they are fun to ride in varying conditions

funny how macho surfers use short boards, but macho hardbooters use long boards.

[BryanZ]

Riding in ski boots is not something I would do, but when I tried it once, the three things that I hated were: they're too stiff, The cuff is nowhere near high enough, and you can't adjust and lock in the forward lean. HOWEVER the ski boots Boris mentioned have higher cuffs, flex more softly, and have adjustable forward lean.

Being how tall you are, you're bound to have pretty big feet. (like size 12?) Using a ski boot in any of the bindings BlueB mentioned may not be possible because they won't go big enough.

Going strictly on what you said about not wanting to upgrade in the future and going extremely fast on icy terrain, a board like this would probably be up your alley, it's waist width is more suited to someone with bigger feet. I wouldn't even consider buying this board because it's way too wide for me (sz 8.5 feet). I like a waist around 190mm. 235mm is pretty freakin wide though.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23717

The best thing though is to get some boots (whatever they may be) and try to schmooze your way into riding / trying as many boards as you can so you can figure out what you really like. There's a couple of guys here with pretty big feet. DaveEspi and Divebomber are the only ones that come to mind now. Maybe make a thread that says something like need big footed rider advice, etc. because there are challenges you may face with equipment selection that the majority of us may not be familiar with.

later,

Dave R.

I'd love to try out some boards, unfortunatly riders are few and far between. When I see one on the slopes, they are usually passing me. It's sort of fustrating when I am going uncontrollably fast, fighting the terrain and ice, on the brink of losing control, and some guy on an alpine board blows by me appearing as casual as one would be reading a book at starbucks. Needless to say, I don't get to converse with them much, let alone try out their board.

So based on your recommendation, I should be looking at a 185-200cm board with atleast a 22cm waist? sound about right?

You can haul on any length of board. I'm 6'2 190 lbs. and selected an F2 Silberpfeil 173cm and an F2 Speedster 183cm board when I first started. The boards feel different enough. The 173 at first was easier to ride in softer snow at lower speeds with larger crowds. The 183 has to be ridden fast to turn it and feels more damp on hard snow. Knowing what I know now, I would pick a metal board. They are much easier on the legs. The difference is like riding a full suspension mountain bike or a road bike. The metal just feels soft, smooth and cuddly at speed, the non metal is more snappy or lively and will pop you between turns.

I can imagine that a metal board would easier and quicker to build confidence on, but you might not learn proper technique???.

As for the foot size, my feet are the same size and I sized down to a 28.5 cm boot. The angle I have to ride to eliminate boot out are between 65 and 70 degrees, which seem to be pretty steep. I could imagine the with ski boots the angles could be 75-80 degrees because the length of the boot sole is so much longer.

I had been riding for 24 years before getting a full blown setup. It does take a bit of adjusting. Don't give up on the first day if it does not feel right, because it will on the second day;-)

That's what I keep hearing, the longer boards are better for high speed, which as I stated earlier is my primary concern. I'd rather learn the hard way, through various FAQ's, I've picked up that the longer more advanced boards will basically force you to learn proper technique?

Oh and I won't give up, after doing a lot of reading the past few days and seeing them carve, I'm almost angry I didn't buy one 10 years ago.

The only reason to start out in ski boots is if you are also an avid skier and want to switch back and forth during the day.

Deeluxe Track 700 - stiff but not too stiff.

Bomber TD3 (will work with ski boots if you go that way)

A Coiler, Donek, or Prior metal board about 180-185 and at least 19.5cm wide.

Please note that a very fast board and an ice board are two different things. For serious ice you want something shorter with a shorter sidecut radius so that you can get turns around without building up too much speed. A fast board will be longer and have a radius north of 13m.

Eventually you'll need both, but it sounds like you'll be able to start with the fast board, *IF* you can already *CARVE* your softboot gear. Can you do the Norm? And carve the downhill edge?

If the answer to those questions are no, or "well, kinda" then you should start on something medium like a 175.

what is the Norm, and carving the downhill edge? I don't really speak the lingo. I can assume the downhill edge is basically when your riding horizontal and turn into the slope? I'm imagining basically carving a quarter pipe?

Also it's usually not serious ice, like straight ice, Its mostly just sections of ice where some the more timid riders and skiiers like to slide down the slope instead of carving it. With my setup now, if I'm carving with some decent speed, and I hit any ice that I don't see, I'll be picking the snow out of my goggles. I just want to be able to control myself if I hit an ice patch.

[BryanZ]

actually after reading some of your responses I'm starting to get the picture, I may want a shorter board.

Maybe a slalom board. It sounds like a longer board is going to meant for long, drawn out, picture perfect S curve from one side of the trail to the other.

I'm not looking for that. I prefer high G, quick edge to edge transitions.

Am I getting the right idea here?

Instead of drawing an S in the slope, I want to draw a wavy line.

[mr_roboteye]

So based on your recommendation, I should be looking at a 185-200cm board with atleast a 22cm waist? sound about right?

Board length is something that depends on a few things. How fast do you want to go? How wide are the runs where you normally ride? Are the slopes crowded (lots of meat gates)?

later,

Dave R.

[BryanZ]

It sounds like you are pretty set in what you want to do, and there's nothing wrong with that. Board length is something that depends on a few things. How fast do you want to go? How wide are the runs where you normally ride? Are the slopes crowded (lots of meat gates)?

later,

Dave R.

I want to go as fast as humanly possible. Picture Ricky Bobby in "Talladegga Nights" that just keeps saying "I wanna go fast." Honestly I thought I was going to grow out of the "fast" thing, but I'm a little older now, and I still love every minute of it. I've just come to terms with the fact that I should never buy a motorcycle, and I love going fast. The runs are usually plenty wide, like 200 feet wide. Crowds are usually not an issue, I don't like going if I have to wait in line for the lift.

[mr_roboteye]

I edited my last post after reading post #15, which was posted while I was writing mine.

Your area of choice sounds like it's allright for a long stick so I guess the ball is in your court. I doubt that you will be happy with one board though. Two or three is about right, I've got five.

later,

Dave R.

[BryanZ]

I edited my last post after reading post #15, which was posted while I was writing mine.

Your area of choice sounds like it's allright for a long stick so I guess the ball is in your court. I doubt that you will be happy with one board though. Two or three is about right, I've got five.

later,

Dave R.

will I be able to transition quick with a long board?

[mr_roboteye]

will I be able to transition quick with a long board?

That's another can of worms. The wider the waist, the slower it will transition. I have a FP with a 178mm waist. It is so fast edge to edge it's ridiculous. Some guys here also ride skwals and the odd virus that are even narrower than that.

Like we discussed earlier the bigger the feet, it gets a bit problematic in this area.

later,

Dave R.

[Hotbeans]

Some more experienced carver's here might chime in on board stiffness vs length, and a "de-tuned" board vs. a fully sharpened edge. These characteristics (IMO) would have a pretty significant impact on what you're looking for and how it will ride.

BTW, BryanZ, I think you'll be surprised at just how much fun blue/green runs can be on a carving board. You'll get all the G's you want on blues for a good long time. I'm willing to bet that a "wavy line" down a blue will be like standing on a rocket... Eventually, you'll want to rip on blacks, and that type of arc will be put down at a sphincter-tightening rate of speed. You'll want to experience laying it out in a hard, full on carve that compresses your body to it's limit. For that, you'll want the "full-c" carves mentioned elsewhere.

[BryanZ]

btw thanks for all the responses fellas, good to see the forum is a mature crowd

[BryanZ]

I'm willing to bet that a "wavy line" down a blue will be like standing on a rocket... Eventually, you'll want to rip on blacks, and that type of arc will be put down at a sphincter-tightening rate of speed. You'll want to experience laying it out in a hard, full on carve that compresses your body to it's limit. For that, you'll want the "full-c" carves mentioned elsewhere.

Put me in the right mind set, from what I can decipher, that would mean I want a shorter and quicker board for the blues and board a wavy line, and on the blacks I would want a longer board for a nice wide S formation, because I would pick up too much speed if I take the slope like a slalom. Am I seeing this the correct way?

Also your saying its common to carve so long that you end up going back up the slope? Sounds very fun, I look foward to my chest scraping the snow.

[BryanZ]

That's another can of worms. The wider the waist, the slower it will transition. I have a FP with a 178mm waist. It is so fast edge to edge it's ridiculous. Some guys here also ride skwals and the odd virus that are even narrower than that.

Like we discussed earlier the bigger the feet, it gets a bit problematic in this area.

later,

Dave R.

ok so I need a skinnier board, but I need the boots to be as small as possible so my angles aren't rediculous.

Is it a no-no to have your boots hang past the edge of the board at all? Like what would be acceptable overhang?

I just put a ruler down and placed my feet in a 178mm width, and with regular shoes on, the angles were pretty extreme.

[mr_roboteye]

Is it a no-no to have your boots hang past the edge of the board at all? Like what would be acceptable overhang?

I just put a ruler down and placed my feet in a 178mm width, and with regular shoes on, the angles were pretty extreme.

Bootout is not a no-no, it just depends how much. There are other factors as well, such as lift, or how high your boot sole is off the surface of the board.

When you are starting out, it's probably OK to have a bit of bootout, but as you progress (get the board up on edge a lot more) you'll need less overhang or your boots will lift the board edge right off the snow. I have mine set up with very little (if any) bootout. This is the factory prime 185 with the 178mm waist. Angles are 63 / 60 with sz. 8 1/2 feet. There are ways to cheat as well by biasing boots to one edge or the other, because you can never get the board tilted as high on your heelside. You can do a search on the forum for "Gilmore bias" or Gilmour, I can't remember if it's the Scottish spelling or the English spelling.

later

Dave R.