Rammy Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 A quick question from a newb. When I'm traveling straight and fast I'm having problems with stability. What position am I supposed to be in. It seems if I turn my head slightly or my shoulders my Prior WCR 181 wants to follow. Is there a specific technic to what I thought would be the simplest position but is giving me the most trouble. I'm good with carving and turning but I'm stumped on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Are you talking about just straightlining for fun (well for some people anyway!), or cruising cat tracks? Generally any problems I ever had while flat basing were caused by facing the nose and not the bindings. The heelside edge wants to come around when you do that. You might find that being on one edge or the other just the slightest amount helps, I can't say I've ever been in control on a perfectly flat base. On cat tracks, I followed gdboytyler's lead once..He kinda does this slow-mo cross under stuff. Works wonderfully for holding speed and control. Going fast is more fun if you're turning..even some easy fall line carves. Just going straight seems silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 In this case it was a run that went steep into a gully and then you had to go up the other side to a ridge that was about fourty or fifty feet with a narrow mouth that took you to the rest of the downhill run. In order to get to the top I needed all the speed to hit the crest. Playing the run back in my minds eye I was trying to aim the nose instead of the bindings as you pointed out. Such a simple solution. One of those can't see the forest for the trees senario. Thanks for bringing it to light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Just to echo what KC has stated. Stay slightly on edge if you are trying to maintain stability. Stay centered in your stance (foundation). That Prior WCR 181 you are on should remain very stable at speed with just a little toe or heel pressure as needed. At my local hill, we have 2 runs that have a 'roller-coaster down-up' feed followed by a steep section. In order to make it to the 'up' section riders must carry enough speed to negotiate the 'up' section. Each runs' down-up sections are off-camber and require boarders to edge more heavily to one side. I usually 'feather' my edge pressure in these sections (think: cross-under) to maintain speed and control. When I don't do this, I end up hiking up the 'up' portion of the runs. This doesn't make a fat old graybeard like me look good. Good luck to you. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Roller Coaster, thats the word. I'll try the feathering. I like that particular run so I would like to master its challenges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powell1.8 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 .5-1* of base bevel helps a board perform better running flat. I never gave this much thought until I had my edges redone to 1* on the base this season and it really is nice. Definately less catchy. I find staying very slightly on edge is much faster through the flats though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 I find staying very slightly on edge is much faster through the flats though. It may feel this way, but the opposite is true. UHMW plastic (your base) glides on snow much better than a steel edge. Whoever is able to keep their base the flattest to the snow will glide the furthest. There are other factors at play of course, like wax, base structure, snow moisture %, and frontal area (wind resistance). later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelsch42 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 It may feel this way, but the opposite is true. UHMW plastic (your base) glides on snow much better than a steel edge. Whoever is able to keep their base the flattest to the snow will glide the furthest. There are other factors at play of course, like wax, base structure, snow moisture %, and frontal area (wind resistance).later, Dave R. Depends if you're carving on your edge, or just skidding your edge. I've always thought you could end up going faster carving than riding flat? As long as your good, and you stay in the carve and don't scrub speed. twelsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 The fastest true snowboard would have zero sidecut and be very edge high.(convex) Being locked into the fall line is by far the fastest way around. Any amount of carving pulls you out of the fall line; effectively taking you off course from the fastest way down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powell1.8 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 This is just for fun, because I really could care less and I'm bored. It will make me exercise this brain of mine. I will give you that the coefficient of friction for UMHW may be less than the metal edge material, but lets take into account the amount of the meterials in question. I'm going to be generous and say a single edge is 2.5mm wide. This amount of material is so minimal it isn't worth including in the equation. However, my base I'm going to say is apoximately 200mm wide on the average. Slightly on edge I'm going to say aproximately 50mm of base material is in contact with the snow. Running flat I would have four time the material in contact with the snow, that four times the friction. It doesn't matter how low the coefficient of friction is, it's still four time more. Friction is the enemy when it comes to speed. Everyone who has ridden in wet/soft conditions knows that it can be very slow. In my experience the best way to beat this is to get slightly on edge and break the suction the base has with the snow. This is the reason for all the fancy base grinds. To get the water away from the center of the base and break the suction. I know that I can ride faster slightly, and I mean slightly, on edge than flat. It doesn't just feel that way. If I pump into the edges I can go even faster. At times I can even increase my speed. Like I said this was just for fun and I am bored. I may be wrong, but it sounds good to me. As far as bombing down the fall line with zero sidecut and a convex board goes, I'll pass. I think this is called sledding.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 I happen to have in my posession a pair of 217cm (yes they're shaped) world cup downhill skis. The purple burner is a 188....so you get the idea. I have personally piloted these in excess of 70mph and they kick a lot of ass, (and they're loaded with metal, which we all love) anyway, back to business...... Powell is pretty close at 2.5mm. Here is a pic of the side edge on a burton ultraprime. It has about 2mm of edge from the factory. Here is a picture of the side edge on the world cup downhill skis. I have seen others with even less edge than this. I realize that this equipment is going to be used when hundredths or perhaps thosuandths of a second count, so as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the difference would not or may not be noticable to the average person, however world cup tuners grind as much of the side edge off as possible so that when you are turning (carving) or gliding there is the least possible amount of steel and the most possible amount of base touching the snow at any given time. The only reason the skis would be prepared this way is to minimize the metal touching the snow, and maximize the plastic. I have put this to the test many times racing my buddies down to the bottom of 7th. heaven on Blackcomb, in a resort that is absolutely riddled with cat tracks. Whoever has the flattest base,(the least amount of steel and the most amount of UHMW on the snow) will glide the fastest. Powell is absolutely right about very wet snow and the suction effect, and tilting your board to minimize it, I've been there many an April or May. later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Friction is the enemy when it comes to speed. Yes and no. Ptex is by nature pretty hydrophobic. Essentially your board is floating over a very thin layer of water when you're riding down the hill, created by the friction of your base. The greater the surface area of your base, the more evenly the weight is distributed, and your board can float along just fine. By tilting the board up on edge, even slightly, you increase the amount of pressure to the edge, causing your board to push down into the snow even more and generating more friction than your base alone would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Robo- Cool stuff, thanks for the pictures! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powell1.8 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 How dare you question my psuedoscientific blather.:D When it comes down to hundreths or thousandths of a second I can see where 2mm total of edge material might possibly be limiting , but I'm thinking one could also deduce from this that the reduction of weight was critical too. I always thought the increased length of a ski or snowboard for speed was to distribute the riders weight over a greater area, which would also therortically lead to riding with the base as flat as possible to distibute the riders weight even further. I don't think it was to put more material in contact with the snow. Thinking back 18 years or so when I raced skiis I do recall working hard to get my skiis as flat as possible in the straits and what not. That being said I still have to say that in practice I can still run faster moving from edge to edge on my snowboard. I more or less get on edge, and I'm talking ever so slightly, just long enough to break the suction effect, but not long enough or heavy enough to actually turn the board. As I roll to the other edge I go slow enough that there is a period of time when the full base is in contact with the snow. I only keep rolling if I feel the base begins to grab or for stability. Then I'm back on edge and pushing energy back into the board to kind of spring through the next cycle of back and forth on my edges. Most of the time looking back at my tracks I don't think I could even tell that I'm doing this, unless the snow is really firm, but not icy. I know it works for me. I know that if I ride this way I may make it to the next knoll that I otherwise wouldn't. It's just my experience over the years. The other factor in this for me is fatigue. I find it much easier to ride this way than trying run as flat as possible. I couldn't say exactly why, but it just isn't as tiring for me. Is the friction of the base and snow what causes the thin layer of water or is it the pressure created by the board and rider on the snow that causes the snow to melt? I'm certainly not trying to prove anyone wrong here, I'm just waiting for the family to hurry up and get ready so I can go ride. :D This is just fun for me. It's just something to make me think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 The greater the surface area of your base, the more evenly the weight is distributed, and your board can float along just fine. By tilting the board up on edge, even slightly, you increase the amount of pressure to the edge, causing your board to push down into the snow even more and generating more friction than your base alone would. So in theory I get it but in practice I know I can go faster/further by going up on edge, or doing a wheelie (pulling everything in front of the back foot up off the snow), at least in certain snow conditions. Does this mean anything, or does it just mean I have crappy wax jobs sometimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 I always thought the increased length of a ski or snowboard for speed was to distribute the riders weight over a greater area I must pre-apologize to the original poster for getting a little off topic, but... The main reason for speed equipment being long is related to simple physics. ie: an object at rest tends to stay at rest, an object in motion tends to stay in motion. When you are travelling at a high rate of speed, ideally the entire length of your equipment will be in contact with the snow at all times. When you encounter a bump in the snow, although you can't see it because it happens so quickly, the tip of your equipment is deflected off the snow, and creates a "wave" that travels down your ski / snowboard. If you are on a 220cm board or pair of skis, this "wave" never really gets a chance to make it to where your boot is because the tip of the equipment is already touching the snow again by the time the wave has travelled to your boot. If you were to travel this fast on a 165cm board or skis any bumps in the snow will cause probably more than half of your effective edge to be off the snow at any given time, giving a very bumpy ride and making control difficult because most of your edge is in the air. It's the same as driving a jeep cj down the freeway, it's like being on a hobbyhorse because the wheelbase is so short. Thunderbird supercoupe, different story, very long wheelbase, deals with bumps much better (smoother). Take it from me, the 217's in the pic above ride like cadillacs. It is so smooth it is unreal. The metal in them has something to do with it, but the length is a major contributing factor. later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powell1.8 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 We are way off topic kinda, but this is good stuff. I hear you on the resonance wave passing through the ski/snowboard, but the the problem I have with this analogy is that the longer the object the more pron it will be to resonate. I'm not sure I follow you on the wheel base analogy, but a flag pole in the wind is the best example I can think of. Given two equal poles of different lengths the longer of the two will resonate more easily. Everyone has seen this. A flag pole whipping around in the wind, seemingly out of control. The way to reduce this resonance is through damping, not increased length. The wave will pass completely throught the ski/snowboard regardless of length, how it will do this will depend on the damping of the ski/snowboard. Mr Robot, I hope you are not taking this like I'm trying to prove you wrong, this is just a fun topic. A lot can be learned by sharing ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 You have the "angle of force" per say incorrect. With a longer ski, there is more length for the resonance to be dampened before impacting the binding/boot. A flag pole being acted upon by wind will only have more surface area if you make it longer. Now imagine a horizontal flag pole being beaten on by a hammer at one end. That's the correct analogy. Edit- Or another way to look at it is the difference between hopping up and down on the skis, which would be the whole surface being impacted at once, versus hitting an icy snowball at speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 No offence taken at all. There are three things (that I can think of) that control resonation in a long ski / board. #1. Ski and snowboard cores are tapered (lengthwise) and get thicker in the middle. #2 (if so eqipped) Metal layers dampen resonance. #3 Once the tip touches the ground again it stops resonating. ie: if you strike a tuning fork and close your hand over it, by touching it, you stop the vibrating. There are two other ways I can think of that builders try to control vibration. #1. Putting rubber layers in the entire lamination or just pieces in the tip and tail. #2. Adding a binding plate (conshox, hangle, vist), which usually has some rubber in it too. later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 holy **** you guys have to much time on your hands:lol: my .02 is just that I notice that in general laying my base down on the snow in less than perfect conditions slows me down. Wrong wax for the conditions is possible. I also notice that the wax is worn off of the outer 2" or so of each side fairly quickly leaving a waxy thicker surface in the middle. The problem is very noticeable on slow snow days and vurtually undetectable on fast snow days. I am guessing its a wax issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Back to the OP - riding a flat base requires that you provide no inputs to the edges, yet be ready to react in case you need to. This means standing neutrally on your feet, ie even pressure heel and toe, and lining your body up with your bindings. If you tend to ride with shoulders square, you may be adding a little rotational input that isn't noticed when on edge. The other thing is that you need to be pretty loose and relaxed. A good test of neutral position is riding a flat base on a flat cat track. It's also a good skill to have when you're on a drag lift. If you're neutral and relaxed, you can avoid catching edges in either situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serge Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 In this case it was a run that went steep into a gully and then you had to go up the other side to a ridge that was about fourty or fifty feet with a narrow mouth that took you to the rest of the downhill run. In order to get to the top I needed all the speed to hit the crest. Playing the run back in my minds eye I was trying to aim the nose instead of the bindings as you pointed out. Such a simple solution. One of those can't see the forest for the trees senario. Thanks for bringing it to light. Hi Rammy, From what you describe, it sounds like you were bombing down the top of Zoomer at Edelweiss. Is this the case? Glad to see other hardbooters in Ottawa. I just started on hardboots myself a couple of weeks ago... If it is Edelweiss, when do you usually ride? I am a regular there... I have been carving in softboots on a Donek Razor since last March, and finally set myself up with hardboots.. loving it .. and learning :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hey Serge, It was Camp Fortune, the Clifford run, its right under the chair and its fun showing off there. I usually do the slalom if no one is training. I have a night pass and I try to go two or three times a week. I started with hard boots a few weeks ago and its going really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serge Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hey Serge,It was Camp Fortune, the Clifford run, its right under the chair and its fun showing off there. I usually do the slalom if no one is training. I have a night pass and I try to go two or three times a week. I started with hard boots a few weeks ago and its going really well. Hi Rammy, haven't gone to Camp Fortune in years....I'll have to check it out. Do you find the runs carver friendly for a beginner carver? I can carve C's on moderate runs, but struggling to do nice C's on steep blues on my heelside (and yes.. I have been reading the threads.. great pointers ) I think I might just check it out. I also started carving on my hardboots last Friday at Edelweiss, and did half a day at Mont St Marie on Monday in my hardboot in the morning , and jumped in my soft boots with my Donek Razor in the afternoon...So far.. 2 days in hardboots and more to come:D Loving it:1luvu:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I sent you an e-mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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