Steve Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Love all you carvers and racers out there. Anybody know the approx. speed difference of snowboard vs. 2-skis. Slalom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patmoore Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Welcome Steve, I can't speak for anyone else and I rarely race slalom but there is a quantifiable difference in my speed in GS between skis and board. My NASTAR handicap on skis at this year's pacesetter trials was 16 while my snowboard handicap is 32. This is based off a theoretical par time that would have been established had Phil Mahre been on that course. I would have been 16% slower than Phil when I was on my skis and 32% slower when I was on the board. There are far faster boarders than I and many are capable of getting into the teens on a board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Thanks, Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Under NASTAR handicapping rules, snowboarders receive a handicap of 10 vs alpine skiers, which is the same as telemark skiers get. I'm interpreting that to mean that NASTAR expects snowboarders and pinheads to be about 10% slower than alpine skiers. Just for grins, I searched last year's results. Fastest skier had a 1.48 average handicap, fastest rider was 5.62 so not as big a spread there as NASTAR predicts. However there were a ton of fast skiers, #100 on the list was still in the 8s while #100 of the riders was around 24. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patmoore Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Under NASTAR handicapping rules, snowboarders receive a handicap of 10 vs alpine skiers, which is the same as telemark skiers get. I'm interpreting that to mean that NASTAR expects snowboarders and pinheads to be about 10% slower than alpine skiers. That's correct. The handicap doesn't change, but the medal earned is impacted. If a racer in a particular age group needs a 22 handicap to earn a Silver medal on skis, he'll need a 32 handicap on a board. In watching a very good racer (like Wavechaser) on our NASTAR course it's clear he has plenty of speed in the course itself. Where he's hindered is the start because he can't pole and skate. That's inevitably going to cause time loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 What is the main time loss factor from the first gate to the last gate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Steve, In my experience there are a host of factors that influence the time differential b/w skis and board. Of course the biggest is the rider and that's not a quantifiable variable in any real sense (you could do it, but who would bother?). The start of a course has a huge impact on time differences. If the start is relatively flat, and/or if the start gate lacks anything to pull out with, the boarder will already be way behind before the first gate. I used to race on a flat-topped hill in MA and I used poles for the start of the race just to get some momentum going. Boarders can't skate or pole like skiers so you are handicapped right out of the gate. Obviously, the terrain the rest of the way down will have an impact too, especially if there are any long flat sections. Another critical factor is the set of the course. I've run some skier-set slalom courses over the years that are extremely difficult on board vs. skis. We lack the ability to side-step or up-step between gates to gain a few inches and correct our line. If we get low in a gate, we have to carve back up to the next one, losing precious speed. If it is an actual skier course, with tall skier gates, you have the added problem of cross-blocking gates with only your forearm and no poles. If you shin a tall gate on a snowboard, it is very easy to be thrown off your edge, messing up your rhythm, timing and balance. My take is that the 10% delta is probably a decent guesstimate of the difference in many courses. My times in courses against skiers are typically 15-25% slower than the top skiers. I know they are better racers than me. When I'm forced to race skier slaloms, my times suffer even more. In our league, I run a handicap of ~40 while the top skiers are in the single digits (similar to Nastar, our league presumes a zero par time would be set by Bode). If we were looking at all-out speed in a straight line, I'm not sure what the differential would be, but I'm certain the skis would out-perform the boards. In a tuck, while you may present a smaller wind profile on the board, you can get low and sleek with a much more balanced stance on skis than on a board. Having two platforms to keep stable, you can handle all the small corrections and adjustments that are necessary to stay stable on the snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 As go-fast equipment, boards take second place to skis for sure. Unless we're in hip-deep freshies, in which case, sayonara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Thank you everybody for your responses. I appreciate them very much and have read them all very carefully. Question: Take away the variables such as the poles, the individual skier expertize, the terrain, the snow conditions, etc. When you come out of a Gate and then need to make the most efficient turn for the next gate (I.E. least amount of time used), what is the advantage of 2-skis over the Snowboard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Question: Take away the variables such as the poles, the individual skier expertize, the terrain, the snow conditions, etc. When you come out of a Gate and then need to make the most efficient turn for the next gate (I.E. least amount of time used), what is the advantage of 2-skis over the Snowboard? Here's my thinking (I'm not an engineer so ) With two skis / 4 edges, you can do a couple of things that make an important difference. First, you can take a small "step" uphill as you set your edge for the next turn. You may not always do this, but the option is there if its a tight set. If you do it, you give yourself a little more room to negotiate the turn with less edge pressure, or put equal edge pressure into the skis but carve a slightly different arc. Also, you have two sets of edges in the snow so you can moderate your edge pressure and spread it between two edges, thereby putting more pressure into the snow while lessening the chance your edge will break free from the snow. Part of the reason we dig such deep trenches on boards is that we put a lot of pressure into one edge. By increasing the pressure on the edge and the edges of the base, we increase friction and slow ourselves at least somewhat. And also keep in mind that a huge part of going fast comes from the muscle between your ears. To paraphrase Yogi, "Snowboarding is 90% mental -- the other half is physical." If two skis makes us feel more stable, we'll be more confident and therefore more able to milk every bit of speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 On a snowboard you must take a much rounder line than on skies. When you switch edges on a snowboard you move downhill and inside, so you have to round the line up to make up for this. On skies you move from outside ski to a new outside ski that could be as much as three feet stagared. So you can keep your momentum going down the fall line and still be able to create the turn shape need to get around the gates. Plus you are in a more stable stance AND platform so you are less effected by chatter and ruts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Great Analysis guys, thank you very much. I think you have pretty much nailed the answer. I have noticed that in snowboard racing the tail of the board slips or skids out of line alot. This seems to me to be also a factor that would contribute to slower race time. Any comments on that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I believe that's intentional much of the time. The fastest line isn't necessarily the purest carve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 We have now had three carving cup style races at our local hill with boards and skis on the same course. The skiers have no poles, so that advantage is taken away. They are able to get in a few skating strokes at the start which helps them. Overall though, the times are very close and I think that if there were an extremely steep start and a carefully designed course, the advantage could almost be taken away. Once skiers have to start making turns like we do free carving on boards (see photo), they loose many advantages they would have on a traditional course. BobD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Awesome Carving shots Bob!! It looks just like the "bottom Turn" in good waves. Any comment on the following?: In Snowboard Racing (especially on Ice), I have noticed the Tail of the Board Slips or Skids out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Awesome Carving shots Bob!! It looks just like the "bottom Turn" in good waves. It's from the carving cup site http://www.carvingcup.com/ This was me in our local carving cup (with three of the guys on kesslers [1,2,&3], my only chance was on skis) BobD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloradoking Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 us racers usually slide intentionally to control the speed we carry through the course, anyone can go fast, it takes real skill to hold it together in a course when you really are going fast. the slide is just a way to keep ourselves in control... usually. this isnt a race board but you get my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Could you explain how you are getting the tail to slide. Are you putting alot of weight on back foot? and what is the rest of your body doing to initiate the slide at that point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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