Thank God SB6900 died - POLITICAL

[C5 Golfer]

I'll probably get flame and hate response but I am glad this died. SB6900 in Wash State was to implement a tax on the size of your motor in your car.

Where did you see that it died? I first heard about this a few weeks ago and have read the bill but I live in Vancouver so we only get Oregon news.

I recently wrote my Senator and quickly recieved a reply. Here is Weinstein's email back to me.

Thank you for your e-mail. Senate Bill 6900 wasn't introduced untilFebruary 1st, only a few days before the "cut-off" date of February 8thwhen bills had to pass out of committee. The bill didn't get a hearing,let alone a vote. There is no action scheduled or anticipated for thisbill. It has been essentially dead since February 8th at 5:00 pm.There will be no vote on this bill. I'm sorry that you were given incorrect or incomplete information. Thank you for letting us know your views. Senator Weinstein appreciateshearing from constituents.

[Guest grainger1]

Thank you for your e-mail. Senate Bill 6900 wasn't introduced untilFebruary 1st, only a few days before the "cut-off" date of February 8thwhen bills had to pass out of committee. The bill didn't get a hearing,let alone a vote. There is no action scheduled or anticipated for thisbill. It has been essentially dead since February 8th at 5:00 pm.There will be no vote on this bill. I'm sorry that you were given incorrect or incomplete information. Thank you for letting us know your views. Senator Weinstein appreciateshearing from constituents.

Dead for how long I wonder? Politicians like the guy who wrote the bill don't just let things die, they try to find another way to push it through. We've all seen it time and time again.

[boarderboy]

Most I've ever paid in my VW sipper.

Regional Biodiesel co-op beginning to look really attractive. They mass-collect used vegetable oils hereabouts and produce B100 - pure biodiesel.

$50 annual membership allows you to buy as much as you want @ an unwavering $3.50/Gal. Or you can take a short course with them and produce as much as you want @ the facility for a much-reduced price. All road taxes are paid. Strictly legit.

Temps 40 F or below require that you buy a little standard diesel - mixes right in - to prevent possible gelling.

No problems with hoses, etc., of newer diesels. The B100 is a mighty solvent, however, so if your fuel filter is dirty, you may need to replace or face a clog.

Good stuff!

[pebu]

I agree with biodiesel. Seems alot more reasonable than all this e85 and hydrogen fuel cells and all that fancy jazz.

I would also go for stuff like regenerative braking and stuff like that (unfortunately most require big batteries and electric motors). Has anybody else heard of regenerative braking using pneumatic pressure?

[C5 Golfer]

Dead for how long I wonder? Politicians like the guy who wrote the bill don't just let things die, they try to find another way to push it through. We've all seen it time and time again.

Here is a copy of another letter from a friend..looks like you may be right in your worry,

Dear Mr. DeLand,

Thank you for writing to me with your concerns about Senate Bill 6900, a

measure that would impose new fees on vehicles based on engine size and

CO2 emissions. The sponsors of this legislation are Democrat Senators:

Rodney Tom, Jeanne Kohl-Welles, Craig Pridemore, Karen Keiser and Adam

Kline. I share your concerns and believe this measure is misguided.

Both of the fees in this legislation are earmarked for transportation

purposes. None of the revenue is earmarked for air quality mitigation.

While it is true that large vehicles get fewer miles per gallon than

small vehicles, it doesn't necessarily follow that large vehicles emit

more C02. The miles traveled by a vehicle and how well an engine is

maintained are better indicators of emissions, but size is the easy

target.

At this time, SB 6900 is still in the Senate Transportation Committee.

However, it can be connected to the supplemental transportation budget

as a source of revenue. Therefore, the measure is still alive and was

not subject to the February 12 cutoff for bills to get out of committee.

It appears to me that SB 6900 will do little to improve air quality, but

it will make it considerably more expensive for some citizens to own the

vehicle that best fits their needs.

Sincerely,

Senator Val Stevens

39th Legislative District

[Dr D]

The newer locomotives and city buses are are hybrid deisel electrics, guess they don't have enough power.

western rural folk work for a living, but we don't here in the east is this what you mean to imply? We don't have similar needs?

Are western devons, holsteins and or in your case for the weekend equestrian a western appaloosa or arabian bigger and demands more resources that it's eastern counterpart?

you'd be amazed at the number of Vt, NH and MA farmers that haul hay/manure/cows and all sorts of other things in their trucks but generally drive a small sedan for any purpose not related to the farm.

Trucks generally blow in snow, the only time they hold really a advantage to a friggin' subaru GL or even one of the front wheel drive super compacts is when you are using chains in 4wd with a foot or more of snow on the ROAD not on the ground or when it's flooding.

Batteries DO have a huge impact but they can be recycled where as burnt gasoline can not. It's not perfect but the issue is closer to the imediate effects of emisions and the the increasing scarcity of oil.

As far as you guys preaching conservatism goes, then you should like a bill that taxes those who purchase gas guzzlers as it sticks you with a bigger part of the bill if you choose a polluter so others who don't are not footing the bill for your irresponsible choice. I guess economic tough love only applies when it hurts someone else's bottom line.

If there were no pollution of any type from bigger cars you'd have some conservative ground to stand on but instead you're saying socialist type system to take care of it. If you destroy a river that people depend on for water by dumping chemicals into it do you think it's inherently the state's job to clean it up with no consequence to you?

Read some Jefferson and Smith before making comments, it helps.

Jefferson was big on personal responsibility, hated the idea of unrestrained big business such as corporations that in effect would become faceless entities with no accountability. "I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and to bid defiance to the laws of their country."

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan. November 12, 1816.

Smith, he used to make comments on how businessmen could not be trusted and also would just plain contradict himself on a fairly regular basis, free markets are a nice dream but not a reality

BTW, I am a friggin' pinko on most issues but on some I've been accused of sounding like Barry Goldwater. I took that as a compliment though because he stood for what a true conservative should and in that I think the guy was great.

The Prius is a good example of a american market, it's milage is not so hot for a hybrid but for the american market it had to be bigger and more powerful than something like the honda insight which gets much better mileage but is not as big as the Prius that is such a hit in the US compared to the insight. There's allot of things bad about the prius other than mileage.

There are quite a few gas only cars that get mileage around 45 MPG in the real world that are not available here because people don't buy them. So many cars here are less efficient here than they are in other countries even when they are the same models because we want bigger, more powerful engines in them.

Wanna talk trucks? Same issue, in other parts of the world what a american thinks he needs gas powered F350 for people will use a six cyl toyota for and the people that ACTUALLY need to haul heavy loads go deisel.

first read all the posts before venting and you will find that we agree on many things. My family drives a ford freestyle that is essentially the suburu you speak of. most trucks here (working Trucks) are diesel. I don't know anyone dumb enough to buy a 350 in a gasser. Most people here also own a smaller car for summer use and commuting when a truck isn't needed. I also would love to have one of the little Japanese minitrucks pictured above (they get over 50 MPG) and would serve many purposes practically. they aren't approved for road use in the US because the aforementioned big companies have lobbied to make it that way. In montana we license ATV for road use contrary to Federal law but I think I can license one that way and get away with it.

Batteries have to be charged and most electricity is made by burning coal. the same enviros you love so much are lobbying to remove dams from our western rivers that provide the only renewable electicity we have. all to save the sturgeon.

I one hundred percent support making companies that pollute pay for their own cleanup. They shouldn't be fined though unless that fine is used to cleanup. either that or you need to recognize the difference between a large corp and a small businessman. To many small business lose everything because the delivery guy spills ten gallons of drycleaning fluid in the parking lot. you can't have an environment that encourages the death of small business. the punishment should fit the crime. fine them for willful negligence and use the money for cleanup not to line some politicos pockets.

As far as car models go we would love little deisel 4 wheel drives. the waiting list for the new VW diesels is out the door hereyou can't get one.

yet you can go to the UK and all the cars are diesel it seems and made by ford and GM. Models they don't sell here now. the freemarket is already working my Dad's F350 hasn't moved all winter because he doesn't haul anything in the winter and the dieselo prices are insane. He bought a VW diesel to drive to the office.

Jefferson would never support anything that interfered with personal freedom or personal responsibility. He also warned us against foreign entanglements. MCCAin will lose the presidential race because he doesn't understand or listen to his conservative base. Neocons are the pubes version of Soros and Co. on the Dem side. we are being run by the fringe instead of the masses. if I thought it would help I would be for Ron Paul. Unfortunately by the time the primaries get to montana there is no one left worth voting for.:(

[Dr D]

Its very quiet all of a sudden!?

[boarderboy]

It was just getting interesting.

Have been watching, but anything I might add would be pompous, Greenie preaching. I long ago learned that the only audience interested in preaching is the choir.

And the choir is usually pretty dam boring.

Here in piedmont NC, it's snowed all of 1/8" this winter.

cheers

[C5 Golfer]

Its very quiet all of a sudden!?

I don't know how big a spoon you have in the pot you are stirring but but lets have a go at this subject since it is inline with the OP.

Here in Seattle area we have our huge lake called Lake Washington, it has two bridges that link the Eastside to Seattle. One of those is I-90 – nice new bridge and the other is an older state road 4 lane bridge which needs to be replaced. They want to replace it with a similar 4 lane bridge but add 2 more lanes, for car poolers and bus. To pay for this bridge they want to charge a toll of around 6 bucks round trip. I believe this is unfair (Disclaimer – I use this bridge maybe 3X a year so the few times I use it – not a big deal to me) But the reason I feel it is unfair is this bridge brings intra- state commerce to businesses on both sides of the bridge and most of the businesses that would realize the economic gain do not pay only the employees that commute. I believe the bridge is equal to any highway in any corner of the state which means the entire state should pay for any and all road improvements. Those of you that travel tolls roads – any thoughts? Approx 160,000 people use this bridge each day.

[bobdea]

I don't know how big a spoon you have in the pot you are stirring but but lets have a go at this subject since it is inline with the OP.

Here in Seattle area we have our huge lake called Lake Washington, it has two bridges that link the Eastside to Seattle. One of those is I-90 – nice new bridge and the other is an older state road 4 lane bridge which needs to be replaced. They want to replace it with a similar 4 lane bridge but add 2 more lanes, for car poolers and bus. To pay for this bridge they want to charge a toll of around 6 bucks round trip. I believe this is unfair (Disclaimer – I use this bridge maybe 3X a year so the few times I use it – not a big deal to me) But the reason I feel it is unfair is this bridge brings intra- state commerce to businesses on both sides of the bridge and most of the businesses that would realize the economic gain do not pay only the employees that commute. I believe the bridge is equal to any highway in any corner of the state which means the entire state should pay for any and all road improvements. Those of you that travel tolls roads – any thoughts? Approx 160,000 people use this bridge each day.

why should we socialize bridges?

didn't you post a fable with chickens and stuff earlier explaining why we should never share wealth on a government level?

My earlier posts in this thread were trolling but I am dead serious right now, you're not making sense.

That's what happens with big projects that no one wants to pay for, the end user gets ****ed at the end of the day.

By your own logic you paying six dollars is how it should be, because people that don't use the bride should not pay anything for it.

Suddenly when you pay six bucks you assume the massively expensive bridge that probably cost 50 to 100 times more per foot than other roads in the rest of the state should be everyone's problem if you use it but if you lived somewhere else and you payed a nickel in bridge tax you be posting about a unfair tax for a bridge you've never used. That clearly conflicts with your view. Until you have to pay the toll you're friggin' Irving Krystol, then you go as red as Marx and Lenin.

[C5 Golfer]

why should we socialize bridges?

didn't you post a fable with chickens and stuff earlier explaining why we should never share wealth on a government level?

My earlier posts in this thread were trolling but I am dead serious right now, you're not making sense.

That's what happens with big projects that no one wants to pay for, the end user gets ****ed at the end of the day.

By your own logic you paying six dollars is how it should be, because people that don't use the bride should not pay anything for it.

Suddenly when you pay six bucks you assume the massively expensive bridge that probably cost 50 to 100 times more per foot than other roads in the rest of the state should be everyone's problem if you use it but if you lived somewhere else and you payed a nickel in bridge tax you be posting about a unfair tax for a bridge you've never used. That clearly conflicts with your view. Until you have to pay the toll you're friggin' Irving Krystol, then you go as red as Marx and Lenin.

Using your logic would it make sense -- Too YOU ! - that the local 4 story Park and Ride be paid for by the people that use that terminal - kinda like an additional bus fare? People that do not use it do not pay for any mass transit?

[Civ]

This thread has prompted me to write a letter to my senator asking that we attack Canada. Expect to see the tanks by morning.

When your all out of fresh water I wont be surprised.

Its not really fair to the US to be compared to Canada......it just isnt. Im sorry, maybe someday you will elect an intelligent person to run the show....I bet you vote McCain in...........

[Derf]

Bridges, interesting!

I live in Montréal. For those that don't know, Montréal is on an island (occupying most of it) and it is the most populous city in the province of Québec and probably the second most in Canada (depends if you count the suburbs), so bridges are a big question here.

We have 15 bridges to get ina and out of the island. There was (or is) a debate about a 16th. You guessed it: I'm against it. It is supposed to be built in a partnership with the state and some privates firms and because of that, there is going to be a toll. Tolls were abolished here several years ago. Some people, including the municipal party that I am a member of, say that there should be a toll on all bridges on the island to reduce traffic (thus giving a better quality of life for the residents of the island and reducing pollution). There are alternatives, like public transit, but it needs to be more developed.

Why should a toll be a bad idea for you bridge or my bridge(s)?

Flame on!

[bobdea]

Using your logic would it make sense -- Too YOU ! - that the local 4 story Park and Ride be paid for by the people that use that terminal - kinda like an additional bus fare? People that do not use it do not pay for any mass transit?

what the **** are you talking about?

My point is that you whine about taxation in any form, usually claiming that it goes to services you never use, for welfare or whatever it may be but suddenly when you have to pay because the state decided not to tax everyone for it you no longer like conservative type policy.

Could privatize it though, free markets I'm sure would take care of the expensive bridge problem.

It's a classic case of the economic "tough love is good for you but not for me", you're like a little kid sometimes.

[bobdea]

Derf, americans don't like tolls because they cost money and they also think that any type of taxation is a attempt at infiltration by communists (literally if you listen to a couple people on this forum). So, they don't like tolls but they don't like taxes. hmmmm

just means they don't want to pay for anything and they'll use any flawed logic to justify it. Usually it's the basis for rationalizing "tough love" policy that really hurts everyone in the long run for the sake of your taxes being a little cheaper A example of that is the NH public school system. The problem is that, generally, the less money being pumped into the state MORE the individual has to spend on services because despite the free markets rederic governments usually do things allot cheaper than the private sector.

Examples, schools, school lunch, HEALTH CARE to list just a few.

[Derf]

Derf, americans don't like tolls because they cost money and they also think that any type of taxation is a attempt at infiltration by communists (literally if you listen to a couple people on this forum). So, they don't like tolls but they don't like taxes. hmmmm

just means they don't want to pay for anything and they'll use any flawed logic to justify it. Usually it's the basis for rationalizing "tough love" policy that really hurts everyone in the long run for the sake of your taxes being a little cheaper A example of that is the NH public school system. The problem is that, generally, the less money being pumped into the state MORE the individual has to spend on services because despite the free markets rederic governments usually do things allot cheaper than the private sector.

Examples, schools, school lunch, HEALTH CARE to list just a few.

That's pretty much it. To add to the flamewar, going off topic in the off topic forum, I listened to Sicko this weekend (including all extras) and I really liked it, even with its exaggerations.

[Dr D]

C5 I gotta agree with BOB on this one. Its the perfect constitutional tax. You have the the option to drive around or to use the other bridge.

Its the indirect tax discussed in the constitution

I am aware of several toll roads that didn't cease the toll when the project was paid for:mad:

this should all be approved up front so its not a hidden revenue source in the future without taxpayer knowledge.

[C5 Golfer]

what the **** are you talking about?

My point is that you whine about taxation in any form, usually claiming that it goes to services you never use, for welfare or whatever it may be but suddenly when you have to pay because the state decided not to tax everyone for it you no longer like conservative type policy.

Could privatize it though, free markets I'm sure would take care of the expensive bridge problem.

It's a classic case of the economic "tough love is good for you but not for me", you're like a little kid sometimes.

Bob , Bob, bob,, you confuzle me… I have not said I am against taxes, they are necessary for a quality of life we enjoy. I have only stated in various posts I am against unfair taxes or unfair costs to certain state citizens. It is that simple. I am all for improving our state but I have always wanted the load to be shared equally. This is why I stated I am against the bridge toll and the surcharge on motor size in a car. The more one drives in the wonderful State of Washington the more one should pay and the more fuel a person uses the more that person should pay – simple. The bridge that needs to be built and HOV lanes added benefit various businesses without any payment. Sonics, Seahawks, University of WA, all heavily benefit from the use of this bridge but none of their profits go to help build it – that is not right. A young person making 10 bucks an hour who needs to travel across the bridge for work pays almost an hour’s wage to go to work where a Microsoft millionaire goes across and is not even a drop in the bucket of his finances – That is not right. I pay a lot ( notice spelling !!) in taxes BTW. I am split on how I feel about state income tax – It is unfair from the extent only those working are paying, I like home property tax the way it is and vote for school levies and bonds when they come up at election time. Our sales tax seems to be fair since we do not have state income tax, which gets to another unfairness – we do not get to claim our sales tax$$ as a federal income tax deduction, but in states that have income tax and no sales tax do – that is not right. More red wine please!:D

[Dr D]

You see there Bob thats a convincing argument. I am officially back on C5's side of the fence:D It certainly seems that it would unfairly burden lower income working stiffs. Seems like that'd be your argument Bob.

for the record its still an indirect tax and much more constitutional than the current application of our federal income tax is.

[C5 Golfer]

C5 I gotta agree with BOB on this one. Its the perfect constitutional tax. You have the the option to drive around or to use the other bridge.

Its the indirect tax discussed in the constitution

I am aware of several toll roads that didn't cease the toll when the project was paid for:mad:

this should all be approved up front so its not a hidden revenue source in the future without taxpayer knowledge.

I see some of your and Bob's point but like I just mentioned above - fairness is my desire- I would like a millionaire to pay a little more than a barista earning $10 an hour - 6 dollars to her is a big hit. The sporting event businesses just to name a few, do not pay anything for the bridge which delivers their gate paying spectators. - I'd like them to pay to some extent.

Bottom Line: There is more to using a bridge than just driving across it - others benefit - I'd like them to pay a little in that fund from thier profits.:D

[Dr D]

bob's right you sound like hilary:lol:

profits aren't a bad thing you know. they pay for everything else. the large numbers of people going to the games will be paying the toll by choice. If the company paid they would just pass it on to the consumer anyway. in a way the college and big companies will pay a big share since they draw a lot of people across the bridge and presumably some will choose not to come lowering their profits accordingly. either way its still a fair indirect tax because you have a choice whether or not to cross. wages will increase when people choose to get a job on this side of the bridge to avoid crossing and the labor market gets tight. wages will increase to offset the bridge expense in order to draw workers across the bridge again. zero sum game

[willywhit]

kickin' azz and burnin' gazzzz

:eplus2::eplus2::eplus2:

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[C5 Golfer]

wages will increase when people choose to get a job on this side of the bridge to avoid crossing .

Now were are getting somewhere! Lets take the bridge down with a 2 year notice, and not replace it. Get people closer to where they work or work closer to where they live - it is their choice. :D

[Dr D]

kickin' azz and burnin' gazzzz

:eplus2::eplus2::eplus2:

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</P>

DAAAAAAAAAMN I especially enjoyed how he was still trying to steer after the fifth rollover:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Dr D]

gotta love willy for his pointless crazy posts outa left field:lol::lol::lol: