Madd 170 vs Swoard?

[willywhit]

If you ride the sissy snow, a Swoard may be your weapon of choice. The Madd 170 is one stiff, damp and snappy ginsu knife. Shaggy only let me ride her for an hour but MAN! the board rips thru ice like a SuperTack skate.Bankers making kiteboards now too.Look out bruce V. If you can pounce on a sled that weighs next to nuthin' ...get a MAdd 170.

[moxie]

umm, okay, so who is selling them?

[Guest Hotmop]

moxie,

I sent you an email with Mike Banker's email address. Is your profile correct? With correct email address?

I will leave it to John Godman, Mike or Shaggy to post contact info. I don't want to put their addresses on and make them bigger victims of spam.

[nils]

Well you East coast guys might have not noticed that 95% of the world rides sissy good snow :). Who would want to ride ice anyway> not me!

More seriously, i haven't yet had any explanation besides that board is better than this one or vice versa.. My question was the following:

- Since we basically aknowledge that hard snow requires a softer flexed board, how come is the Madd ( that I found VERY stiff despite what Jack said...You'll find the Swoard is a chewing gum in comparison) a very good board on icy conditions.? How come is the edge not chattering on ice like it does on most hard boards..

Am not asking fabrication secrets here, but behaviour answers :)

thnx

Nils

[d b]

One of my guides in the alps once told me "there's no bad snow just bad riders" Hahhahaa send me one of each Il ride & tell all................:D

[bobdea]

mainly waist width and sidecut radius

when are we gonna see a Madd website

[Chris Houghton]

The originals were all 18 waists, the 158 just under 10m, the 170 a 13m and the 180 an 18m sidecut. At least that's what the buyer's guide from 1996 says.

[bobdea]

with my big feet I lose comfort below 19.5 and just cant ride anything below 19

[Peter Vu]

CMC, I read with interest your comment on "Swoard rider = static rider".

For the last year, I have been experimenting the EC technique and I found the push-pull (leg works) combined with rotation (upper body) to be very dynamic.

Actually, it's almost too dynamic for the out of shape and average carver guy that I am. :(

However, I am always in the quest to improve my "style".

Providing that I am doing push/pull + rotation, could you help me understand how I can be more "dynamic" ?

Or....

How do I switch from static rider to "aggressive ripper"? Maybe I don't spread out my arms enough but I can't see how this would improve the dynamics of a carve. Please help!

Thanks beforehand !!:)

Peter

[kjl]

Originally posted by cmc

swoard= static rider

Madd = agressive ripper

1) A static rider will not attack the hill,instead he/she will ride it very slight aggressive/laid back.

Not to revive this apparently religious war again, but the EC riders (Jacques/Patrice), who ostensibly ride the Swoard as it was meant to be ridden since they designed it to start with, are anything but static. Their hips and shoulders are more mobile than any other style of riding I have seen, from fully perpendicular to the board in heelside to fully parallel on toeside. Furthermore, every turn starts fully crouched, has an long extension phase while pointed down the fall line, and ends fully crouched again.

If anything, I would consider your CMC style to be static, as you are in a low, powerful stance all the time. Your upper body is always exactly perpendicular to the board, 2.5 feet above the ground with your arms outstretched like wings - the only difference between your heelside, toeside, and transition positions is the direction your legs poke out from your torso. Your angulation is always huge and your center of gravity low. If I could make my toesides look like yours, I'd probably stop washing out all the time.

I've seen videos of you, and personally I'd classify you as a very static, very aggressive rider.

Having ridden with Patrice for a few days at the SES, I'd classify him (and the other EC riders) as an extremely fluid+dynamic, very aggressive rider.

2) Get off the soft snow and come east

...getting a little tired of reading the whole "the Ice Coast gives you gigantic balls and CA/NV/OR/CO/WY/ID/MT/NM/BC/NZ/Swiss/French snow turns you into sissies" thing over and over again.

[willywhit]

I had an interesting talk the the Dominator Wax guy(Tamus?)at the US Open while waiting for my fresh graphite/carbon wax job to cool before the big scrape off. He mentioned that Swoards can be stiffened up in the nose/tail even for the good, soft snow and says that they rip in all conditions.He also compared the "old" Madds to the new batch. I really can't compare since I never rode the originals. Personally, I thought the new 170 was just awesome. Can anyone compare and contrast the old vs new Madd production? BTW, we icecoasters are just jealous of the "sissy" snow. The first dozen runs on Saturday morning were just butter smoove. I wish we had that kinda snow all the time.:(

[gdboytyler]

I could see myself spending my hard earned cash on a Madd or a Swoard.

I could see myself spending that money to go ride in Mammoth, Tahoe, Utah, CO, WY, BC and Europe. Or surf in Hawaii and Indo.

I could even see myself spending that money for coaching at one of the above areas.

But there's no way I'm spending that money to go snowboard on ice or surf small waves on the East Coast.

I'll settle for the ice I get night-boarding in Michigan. And that's because I'm visiting relatives in MI.

And I thought the East Coast vs everyone else arguments only popped up on surf forums:D

[Guest Hotmop]

Wow. I really had no idea my question would unleash such a Jihad. It's like Mac vs Windows. Or Ford vs Chevy.

I guess it all comes down to "do what ya wanna do."

After watching the EC videos online and watching CMC, I'd have to describe Curt's style as more active and the EC style as more fluid. I think people took the "static" comment the wrong way. The efficiency of motion is not a bad thing. I've heard more than one instructor say that remaining as centered and fluid as possible leaves more agility when conditions or terrain require an adjustment.

CMC's style is amazing to watch but also seems very physically demanding. I get the sense he just jams through whatever chunk gets in his way. His edge is set so strongly that ice doesn't seem to matter.

I'm riding Curt's board but end up riding more like the EC style (sans lower angles, obviously). I think the efficiency of the EC style is more attainable for my level of fitness.

By the way, I use a Mac and there's a '71 Mustang Mach I in the yard.

[Enzo]

Originally posted by Hotmop

After watching the EC videos online and watching CMC.....

Any online video clips of cmc's style? I thought I remember seeing some a few months back on snowsticks but their media links are down.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by John Gilmour

(reply- The Madd 158 is a race ready slalom board. Anton Pogue was formerly kicked off the US team and got back on the team by winning World Cups Slalom events on the 158- Adam Hoestetter (Sims Fila), Jeremy Jones (Rossignol) also used the 158 in World Cup Slalom events as well as the US Open. The 170 however should be characterized as either a "Consumer GS/freecarve or a Hardboot boardercross deck)

(reply- this would appear to be contradictory with both Adam Hoestetters weight (light about 155lbs) and Anton Pogue's size and weight (about 185))

(reply-narrow groomed trails with a few steep sections are where the versatility of this deck shines., I would prefer to ride the 170 out West (longer turns) and in Europe (mixed conditions)

(reply- World Cup racers detuned the board to accommodate their preferences and snow conditions...it is far easier on race day to remove extra grip than create it)

(reply- Again- Anton Pogues race results would appear to disagree with the above statement- my riding style would also likely differ with your assesment)

(reply- freecarvers are most interested in holding an edge- racers will trade absolute edge hold for skid in order to shave critical hundreths off a course...the needs are not identical)

(reply- the type of conditions (loose granular) and terrain Maciek is accustomed to at his home mountain in New Jersey might lead to develop a novel style that will not work as effectively in steeper terrain. Also with such short vertical drop New Jersey's resorts likely do not promote good conditioning of his legs- I do not recall seeing his style of riding- but likely CMC's style of riding will translate to most hardpack terrain regardless of snowcondition or pitch or length of the hill - this low slung compressed over the edge type of riding is what we have developed these boards for- the thrill factor on Madd boards is very high. Yes.....at first....it can be a super quadricep burner, but like anything else you adjust. Your body condition improves and adapts. My legs just buzz like crazy at the end of the day and that puts a huge smile on my face the whole ride home...ain't life grand?)

(I would not reccommend a Madd board for a rider like Maciek (based solely on his body angulation from the Avatar photo and the lack of others referencing his riding skills, I think a forgiving wider softer freecarve board in the 165cm length would be appropriate for the terrain and snow conditions likely anything over 170cm would be too much board for a New Jersey mountain snow, terrain and his current riding technique)

Really Smart riders ride what suits the terrain as well as their abilities, personal goals and style.

No so smart riders hop on a unfamiliar carving devices, three days later place high in the world championships and then foolishly celebrate by maching into a set of trees crippling themselves for the rest of the season.

John,

I trained on gates in New Jersey (by the way with Kevin Whirehead and his brother Michael - perhaps not a class of Anton, but still USASA several times champions in GS and SL and they rode with Ross Powers when he was still racing and carving on slopes). I ride 178 GS board for racing with stiffness index as you can see on Donek web site ( GS Samsel model). So that's far more stiffer than Madd could ever achieve and edge hold is not less than Madd 158. Now I don't say that this board is a great choice for anybody. It is too stiff to me either and extremely demanding. It brings only pain to turn in on ruts at high speed (I tested it on skiiers SuperG course back in Wyoming running gates with skiiers - can handle that too).

I am by the way 185 lbs while CMC is much smaller rider.

For everyday, John, I ride regular 185 GS board with 16 m sidecut... just for fun. I can ride it on narrow trails in New Jersey's Mountain Creek, but I bet some don't like when I "fly" it between people in particular on shorter, steeper sections.

To tell the truth, I mentioned "modern racing". Anton, Adam and Jeremy are not modern racers anymore. Technique has changed a lot if you followed race course. That's what racers themselves say if you read an interview with Mark Fawcett by Jack Michaud. That was beginning of quite radical changes I guess. Anton had more of carving technique. Perhaps that's why he was not that successful... perhaps for other reasons, but I admire him like other top class racers.

I ride 160 SL, 178GS and 185GS boards. None of them are freecarving as I follow real racing style that can be applied on gates (call it euro racing style as you can see on Avitar, but that's how racers position look like today). That's much more demanding as far as discipline of riding. You will not be able to make your turn always exactly how you planned. I bet you know that since you rip those cones on street boards.

Anyway nobody races on Madd anymore in the World Cup. Racers use F2, Donek, Coiler, Prior, Tropical Tube boards etc. They ARE differently build boards than Madd and apparently Madd is not suitable for racing. That's not my opinion as you can see. I reapeat, I spoke to Sean and Bruce about racing boards... and I mean real racing boards (my 185 GS is Stradley's board stiffest grade when he was still in World Cup several years ago).

Thanks for recommendations though. Average racer uses more forgiving board these days... unless you think you will be that good that you would ride first runs of the course when you create ruts for others.... and others are worse racers than you so they will have to wait. That's the main difference between carving or riding asphalt and racing on snow.

I bet my legs are not conditioned that well as we don't ride loose granular (opposed to what you said - John have you ever ridden in New Jersey or New York???). Slopes in New Jesey are opened at night as opposed to majority of slopes in the USA. That means that we are used to ride on freezing day-melted snow just like recent conditions in Sugarloaf (that is normal to me). We used to set our gates after every racing skiier is done (snowboard racers are from priviledged). I bet that glaze on rutted course with stubbies cannot promte leg power. Perhaps I felt more fatigue already when half of winter season was approaching. That was probably also dictated by the fact that I used to ride 4 short days a week in a similar conditions... resting on easier trails of Statton.

[John Gilmour]

I'm not sure what to say. After my legs are healed up - we could go riding and you could show me your techniques. Did anyone get video of you at ECES? Who else rides with your style?

But as a native New Yorker- I can assure you that a 600 foot vertical drop mountain in NY or NJ will not promote GS legs. No more than doing lots of reps with weights under 10lbs. will make you a serious power lifter.

I haven't seen anyone race on Madds for a while as we stopped making them long ago.

I'm not sure if I want to spec a new board for the race market and make it available to the freecarve market. I hate to see freecarvers try to ride a pure race set up all day- for most it is too unforgiving.

I'll be the first to admit I don't have the conditioning of athletes who get 200+ days on snow per year. Realistically- seeing the gap in riding prowess between Weekend warrior carvers and World Cup riders I can't see benefiting the weekend guys.

[Guest Kil'-basa]

Looking good!

[Guest Real Dalv]

Freeracers might benefit from too stiff of a board. That's what freeracers are all about. They don't have enough power, they don't have any style, but they have big stiff boards.

[Guest Doug M]

After going through every picture on Steve P's sight of the ECES and seeing all the shots and videos of the sword guys.....I have to say the sword guys get it.Out of 200 shots only a couple of riders looked like they had a clue.This whole thing of guys riding 19 cm boards with their arms flapping around like an albatross in heat is just too funny.Maybe these sword guys are on to something.;)

Doug M

[Bordy]

Get a snow board that works for your style and go ride it!

Wide board low angles = shoulders at angles that match your feet!

Narrow boards high angles= the Ice coast action square shoulder style.

I used to ride 16cm waist on the east coast. Meow I live in utah and Ride 18-20.5 but mostly over 19 unless it is very firm.

My madd rips out here in Utah. You just have to know how to ride it!

I dont have a problem riding any thing on snow. Just takes turns to learn the different motions!

Gilmour- Make a great big long Madd >200 and send it out we'll see how it works

EC- guys send what ever you want as long as it Big.

I'll go see what works best!

Maceik- Yep you Guessed it YOU'RE A BOOB! And your doing a great job of proving it again.

P.S. There are of course some photos of me working a 158 Madd in the "soft good" non East coast snow at hardbooter.com Pres day photos under the gallerys. First day ever in those boots (getting out of SBs), Also just changed to a step in on my old TD1s and I had never ridden that Madd. Took about one turn to get it!

Funny how some of us keep telling you cats that there is a snowboard made for all of you.

Problem is most of you have no idea what some of us really ride and you keep talking Donek this and Prior That. Problem is most of you cant even bend that stuff right, in Weekend Warrior flex.

Or in Macieks case ("Stradley's" oh yea Maciek before you talk smack I know him also, so careful what you say he is a tiny little skinny cat!)

If you are asking about gear you have never ridden and taking advise from the Kooks here on BOL then beware of the results!

Some guys Know whats up.

Most Don't

Gilmour: Creater of the Madd line, Lots of days on edge- aloud to talk smack!

CMC: Always Pimping Madd, rides alot- Suits his Style.

Macek: Always making folks Mad- Big Mountain Jersey Rider keeping it real on the weekends(and when he can get time of work).

Me- I'm Just a cat who likes to ride....

[Guest Bling Bling]

Well listen hear Mister fanncy pants! Swoard Swallower;) I think this picture below from Shred on the Madd 158 is just dandy! doesn't seam to be having a problem of getting down on it!:o Oh looks yummy!

[John Gilmour]

Bordy- nice shots!

BTW I've ridden in Utah- Snowbird, Brighton, the Canyons..

The last two had great carving terrain (Thought Brighton was a bit too flat- yet I think a perfect place to teach carving!)- but you have to know how to ride soft snow carving for UTAH-

I prefer the carving snow in Colorado as I'm not really a Utah powder hound anymore, but I like the marriage laws in Utah enough to still make Utah the destination of choice.

I have to agree that you are better off riding Euro style in softer snow and on wider decks. Square style in soft snow just builds too much edge pressure too quickly in the mush.......of course for ICE that is exactly what you want.

Nice to see shots posted- digging in DEEP!. Do you have any video clips to load???On any deck?- It would be cool to demo both soft carving styles and ice carving styles for people.

Does Maciek have any video footage? I'd like to see the New Jersey style of riding for dealing with Loose granular.

[D-Sub]

Bordy is this you?

If so, PROPS! big time. If youre the "billy" at that site..that nose slide was impressive..

but...why so condescending?

"most of you couldnt even bend a board" or something along those lines?

[willywhit]

Got some very positive feedback on Billy Bordy from a Boston BOL'r that took a carving lesson with him a few weeks back while on vaca in Utah. The guy knows his shiznit. I think Gilmour should start a high brow "escort service" ( I mean...brothel ) in SLC after his rehab and we'll get Ron Jeremy aka " the Hedgehog" to endorse it and make some guest appearances. OOPs , wrong again. We'll have to set up shop in Reno and ride Tahoe North all day and do some "railin'" all night. Cold pimpin' YO!:p

[trailertrash]

it is hard to realize on a forum like this but you have to ride with the guy to realize he isnt being arrogant, he is just telling it like he sees it. the guy carves better switch than i can normally. he sees guys like me on my prior which i cant bend to save my life. if you get the chance ride with him or take a lesson with him. you will be glad you did.