Guest Doug M Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 On the "If you could post "Alot of people were skeptical about hard carving on softies.After a Season of screwing around with it I ended up selling all my hard boot equiptment.(16 Years on them)It CAN be done just as well or better as with hard boots with alot more versatility. I thought this was a good shot to get my point across Ken DelRossi at Killington...ON SOFT BOOTS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tilledog Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Well you were doing something wrong then.... I guess Klug'll be riding a Freestyle setup from now on. I can't wait to see replies to this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Doug M Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Hard Carving not Racing...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Doug, a better way to get your point across would be to post a video of yourself carving on a hard setup and a soft setup. Then let the gallery decide if you really are better on a soft setup or if you suck on both:D No one will believe you unless you have some evidence. One still photo of someone else is not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tilledog Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Your gear must have been about 16 years old then too... Sorells on plates maybe:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thavngr98 Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Come on guys lets not bash. He did say just as well which I will agree on but better? That I will not agree to. I've riden a Nitro Shogun from 2004 with Palmer plates and burton C-16 and Burton Driver boots and I can definitly say I can carve just as good as a Alpine board but it definitly is missing that trench diggin adrenaline rush feeling you get laying down a chin scraping carve on a Hard setup. just my 2cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Doug M Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Wow.Personal insults.You would think that I brought up a thread on Mel Gibsons Passion movie.It,s Funny watching the people with the least ability get the most defensive(intentional back handed insult to bait you).....Now this is the part that you start in a tirade of how you can out carve me any day of the week on hard boots and then piss in the snow afterwords.I am telling you it can be done.You seem to think it can't.I am going to be at Killington the weekend of the 13th-14th.Anyone who would like to ride with me is more then welcome to join me for a late winter session to be followed by a nice cold beer.It's all good Doug M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 I'm a softbooter who has recently tried out hardboots. I agree that if you are good enough and know what you are doing, you can carve with any equipment. Alpine gear makes is much easier to carve, although if you aren't a good snowboarder, you aren't going to be able to carve well with either. So anyway, what's the point of this thread? I don't think this is a particularly new revelation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tilledog Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 that this guy thinks that he can carvey carvey harder on softboots and straps and whatever board than he can in hardboots. I just think that he's way off. That's all. He can "bait" all he wants but anyone who rides plates will challenge his opinion on the physics of softboot setups vs hardboot setups. I don't need to be in this thread anymore. I'll listen to comments off the air. Sorry to cause a fuss, peeps. I was just shocked..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyj Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Hey Doug, if that pic is represents the type of turns you make most of the time, I'll ride with you any day of the week--- softies or not. Happy turns. GC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kienitz Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Lonerider, I agree. What's the point? I am curious why a skilled hardbooter would convert to softies. Maybe it's just a matter of the rider, not the set up. That's why when someone asks me, " How do you like that board?" Sometimes I can only say, "Oh, it's alright." The set up is only as good as the rider. I, like some other riders, am striving for perfection and am rarely satisfied with ones skills. It sounds like Doug M is a really good rider to be able to carve hard with softies but as far as versatility, I can only guess why he chooses the soft set up. It's the different challenge. After reaching a certain level, perhaps Doug M after 16 years of plates just needed change, to prove that he could also carve with equipment that is harder to carve. Change is good. In another 16 years he might be back to hardboots. I feel that hardboots can be just as versatile as softies while even more challenging to master. I am not a good example but look at the extreme skiers, bump skiers and freestyle skiers doing big air inverted fakie jumps, all with hardboots. It just takes perseverance and skill. Master it all, weigh the limitations, then pick which works the best. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Yellow Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 that's nothing....Shred was laying down turns on his soft set-up at the SVES this past month...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Got any pictures of heelside carves? Where do you find a softie board with a sidecut over 10 meters? For me, the tight radii would be almost as annoying as the low stance angles and lack of support. And lastly, what is it you can do better in soft boots than in hard? The only thing I've found so far (6-7 years on soft, almost 10 on hard) is tweaky airs. With hard boots I'm pretty much stuck with tail grabs and methods... but it's a small price to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brodster_57 Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Can you carve on soft boots well? Yes. Can you jump or even slide rails on hardboots? Yes. Can soft boots carve just as good as hard boots? Well maybe. It would have to be completely circumstantial in my opinion. But, all things being equal of course, the obvious answer is no. Same goes with jumping and rails on hardboots. And lets not forget that we are snowboarding...not skiing. But I will agree that it is very possible to carve well well a softy setup. Even at relatively flat angles ( 24 and 9 ) I can get that low on toesides quite easily. With my new Donek 169 I can get my arse to touch the snow on heelside before booting out if the conditions are good. I love carving on my softy setup, but regardless of that and what is possible on a softy setup hardboots will outperform softies anyday. But if it is fun and you really enjoy it go for it. Nothing pisses off hardbooters more than a guy on softies outcarving them. And I would agree that soft boots give more versatility on the whole mountain than your average hardboot. Oh yeah that Donek 169 has a 10.26 sidecut radius. It turns like a GS board and has unbelievable speed stability. That board was a hair humbling at first with soft boots controlling it, but after a day or two I love it...finally heelside turns that are really smooth at low angles!!! And talk about challenging...CARVING tight short radius turns on that board was very difficult. I really have to use the torsional flex to get the board to turn tight or use a cross-under push and pull technique to get it to carve tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by Doug M I am going to be at Killington the weekend of the 13th-14th.Anyone who would like to ride with me is more then welcome to join me for a late winter session to be followed by a nice cold beer.It's all good Doug M Since I'm in California, it would be much cheaper for me if you take some video footage on your Killington trip and show us what kind of a ripper you really are on a soft-setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyj Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Lighten up on the guy! So he came on a little strong on the softie set up. You'll have to admit that one turn looked good. This is what is all about, everyone approaching the sport with a little different perspective. Like to see you make some carves, sounds like you might rip pretty hard? I'm often in Mammoth, maybe sometime we can make some turns togther. GC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Originally posted by garyj Lighten up on the guy! So he came on a little strong on the softie set up. You'll have to admit that one turn looked good. This is what is all about, everyone approaching the sport with a little different perspective. Like to see you make some carves, sounds like you might rip pretty hard? I'm often in Mammoth, maybe sometime we can make some turns togther. GC The photo that Doug M. posted is NOT Doug M. And yes, the carver in the photo (Ken DelRossi) looks pretty good. I'm a competent carver and I can carve in soft boots/freestyle board and hardboots/alpine board. I know my carving is a lot better on the hard setup. I'll be riding at Snow Summit this coming weekend. I'll probably be going to Mammoth one more time in March. It would fun to meet up and do some runs together. I'll bring a digital camera and we can film each other. I was hoping to get video footage yesterday, but my riding partner cancelled at the last minute. Great conditions at Snow Summit, camera in the car, but no one to take the footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 You're talking about that dive-for-the-snow type of "carving", which is fine if you like that sort of thing, but it's a subset of carving. I carve, but I don't dive. Of course you can carve on soft gear; how do you think they get height in the pipe? I dare say there'll come a day when I can't buy race boots, bindings and boards. I'm not suddenly going to turn into a side-slipper, so on that day you'll be getting passed by me on soft gear too;) That's a very impressive photograph of a snow-diving chappie using soft gear. It would still be a good picture, but not so impressive, if he was using hard gear. We all already know the reason: it's much easier to carve well on hard gear. What more needs to be said? soft chappies What works best - gear, angles etc? What differences in approach are required to drive the floppy stuff? Are you faster on soft gear or hard? How do you stop those soft boots hurting your feet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Todd Stewart Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 If anyone thinks they can carve as well on a soft set they obviously don't know how to properly use their plates. Nothing beats the feeling of negative Gs (being weightless) in the transition of turns, I can't see too many people being able to do that on softies since I only know a hand full of plate riders who can do it on every turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostertwo Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Got any pictures of heelside carves? <center></center> You <I>could</I> race the Tour de France on a mountain bike. But you would not likely be sportin' <I>le maillot jaune</I>. On the links, you <I>could</I> hit drives using your putter. You would not likely make the leader board. Most of our snowboard pros at Vail/Beaver Creek can rip arcs on their soft setups. Could they rip harder if they were on plates? Most likely yes, but they would then sacrifice the freestyle and all-mountain performance they enjoy on soft setups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kienitz Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Boostertwo, Why would you sacrifice all mountain and freestyle performance using hardboots? Earlier I gave the example of the freestyle skiers using hardboots to do all their tricks and maneuvers. Some tricks might be harder to do with hardboots, but they are still possible. It just takes more work and talent. The rider that can do everything using hardboots (tricks and carving) would be the better rider because of the degree of difficulty mastered combined with the superior performing equipment. Will freestyle skiers start using softboots in the future? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostertwo Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Some tricks might be harder to do with hardboots, but they are still possible. It just takes more work and talent. The rider that can do everything using hardboots (tricks and carving) would be the better rider because of the degree of difficulty mastered combined with the superior performing equipment. Well, I guess. I don't think, however, that for freestyle applications, hard boot setups are 'superior performing equipment'. I don't think it's by accident that the best freestylers in the world use soft setups for freestyle events; the configuration obviously works best to achieve that particular outcome. Is it a better brain surgeon who could perform lobotomies using a chainsaw instead of a scalpel? I guess you could say yes...and it would seem to be an even better surgeon still if they could perform the surgery with one hand, with their eyes closed. For my money, I'd rather have my next lobotomy from the guy with the scalpel. But I'd want to build my next log home with the guy with the chainsaw. IMHO, the best situation is to have both soft and hard boot setups and to use each one in the situations where it provides optimal performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kienitz Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Boostertwo, So you are saying using hardboots for tricks is like using a chainsaw for operations? Hardboots are really that difficult ? I would like to think that there is more potential in hardboots than that and using hardboots for freestyle is like using the right scalpel with an uncomfortable handle. The current freestyle champions are mainly conforming to the mainstream equipment which is inherently more forgiving. Maybe I am wrong, but I will continue trying... just as long as I am having fun. Will the future of freestyle skiers be in softboots? :) Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Originally posted by Tim Kienitz Boostertwo, Why would you sacrifice all mountain and freestyle performance using hardboots? Earlier I gave the example of the freestyle skiers using hardboots to do all their tricks and maneuvers. Will freestyle skiers start using softboots in the future? That's not a good comparison because freestyle skiiers always wore hardboots and the technicaly requirement of freestyle skiing is different from freestyle snowboarding. Some tricks might be harder to do with hardboots, but they are still possible. It just takes more work and talent. The rider that can do everything using hardboots (tricks and carving) would be the better rider because of the degree of difficulty mastered combined with the superior performing equipment. Tim Anyone with a basic knowledge of freestyle and alpine gear would realize that it is extremely difficult to do either activity at the top level with the opposite set of gear. Sure someone in softboot can carve turns, but they will never achieve the level of ability that they would in a hardboot setup. Similarly a person in hardboots could take a jump, spin, even do rails - but never at the level that they could in softboots. In reply to Tim's post - yes it is possible, but I don't think it is very probable... in fact I doubt any pro freestyler could come close to their performance in hardboots, much in the same was a GS racer wouldn't will never be winning big competition races on a freestyle board and hardboots. Anyone who believes otherwise is either ignorant of the specific equipment needs of each activity, fooling himself/herself, or an *extremely* good rider (and I mean best in the world if even). I will elaborate on the difficulties trying to do freestyle in hardboots as most people are aware of the diffficulties of the reverse. First let's look at the board, alpine boards tend to longer and stiffer. Now while you want a stiff board for halfpipe, you don't want one that is too stiff to flex while you ride up between the pipe walls - you go fast in the pipe, but not as fast as you do in a GS course. Then there is the flex pattern, the nose of an alpine board is designed to dig into carves and absorb bumps... this will make it very "unforgiving" if the rider comes down a little off balance and will make it very had to ollie off off in when riding switch. Furthermore, the board is stiff between the bindings, make it great for freecarve, bad for ollies. Of course there is the lack of a rounded tail. With jibbing and rails, you want the board to be really flexy to allow you to do nosepresses and such. So to ride more easily... you would want a shorter board with a centered stance, a softer even flex pattern, and a shorter sidecut to make quickier direction adjustments... oh an a rounded tail.... that sounds a lot like a freestyle board... doesn't it? Then there are the boots/bindings. The first obvious problem is that hardboots weight a lot... my softboots weight about 2 lbs each, combined that less than what only one of my Raichles weight. As such it feels like you have two cement block on your feet when you do spins, ollies, shifties, etc... sure you can do them... but it's much harder. In freestyle, "style" is important and that means being able to tweak the board, meaning you need a lot of flexbility to bending the boot side to side and front to back. "Bone-ing" out you board would be almost impossible unless you have tremendous leg strength, similarly with more tweaked grabs like nose grab or seatbelt grab (grabbing the tail of your board with the front hand). So your would want more flexible boots and bindings that are light and allow you to lean and flex in any direction with minimal effort. Sounds a lot like freestyle boots. Basically I see Tim K as the antithesis (opposite) or Doug M. Where one things everything can be done with softboots, the other things everything can be done in hardboots... personally I think both are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Originally posted by Tim Kienitz Boostertwo, So you are saying using hardboots for tricks is like using a chainsaw for operations? Hardboots are really that difficult ? I would like to think that there is more potential in hardboots than that and using hardboots for freestyle is like using the right scalpel with an uncomfortable handle. The current freestyle champions are mainly conforming to the mainstream equipment which is inherently more forgiving. Maybe I am wrong, but I will continue trying... just as long as I am having fun. Will the future of freestyle skiers be in softboots? :) Tim It's when you say things like this that I don't think you really understand the technical requirements of freestyle. I just posted a length explanation of this. I think BoosterTwo's analogy is not altogether incorrect. For park and pipe riding you don't want the power and max speed that alpine setups excel at. For instance, that immediate responsiveness that comes with alpine boards and hardboots would often spell diaster if you off-balance on a jump or a halfpipe wall (as you are suppose to) Hardboots and alpine boards have features that are an advantage in many situations, but in other situations these features become weaknesses. I believe there was another post on the XGames BoarderCross race where all the riders, including several WorldCup racers decided to use a softboot setup instead of a their normal hardboot setup. The point is NOT that one setup is superior to the other (although people on both sides keep trying to pump themselves up by asserting that). The point is that *are* situations in which softboots are preferred to hardboots and vice versa. Finally, I would like to debunk your conspiracy theory that "current freestyle champions are mainly conforming to the mainstream equipment which is inherently more forgiving." considering most of them design their own boots and boards to the companies and therefore are not complete slaves to their companies and their freestyle pro models would start looking more like hardboot equipment - but it does not (freeriding models do have some features, but we are talking freestyle here). On a purely commercial perspective - companies would encourage pro riders to make their boards more unique to help differentiate them from other rival models. The Burton Dominant Slick is one such example (crappy board in my opinion since you can "only" do rails pretty much). Another example the Terje Haakonsen and his revival of the big powder board in the form of the Burton Fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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