Muscle Car talk

[C5 Golfer]

Many threads and discusion always gets to American Muscle cars..

So now tell us your favorite all time Amercian Brut Horsepower Muscle car. I will have to go with a 63 Pontiac Catalina 421 cu in Swiss Cheese - aluminum body panel. Not a big Plymouth 426 Hemi fan.

http://www.mecumauction.com/auctions/lot_detail.html?LOT_ID=CH1006-42987

[pebu]

I just gotta love the corvettes of nearly any vintage. I really like the old and the new body styles, but not so much the late 80s styling.

Also I'm a big fan of Shelby's work. The Shelby Mustangs go like mad and the shelby cobras are works of art.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Have to go with the 427 Cobra.

[Kirk]

Really like the Olds Cutlass 442s. 1966-67 and the '68-'71. Love to own a 1969 442 (Hurst 455 cu. in.).

[Bullwings]

1978 De Tomaso GT5 Pantera (5.7 liter Ford Cleveland V8) -- not exactly that well known

[Gecko]

My favorite for years has been a 1968 Shelby GT 350 convertible

[nils]

pontiac GTO 65-66 !

but am getting addicted to the Alfa Romeo lately.. less brutal power, and easier to find in France than the Tri - power GTO's.

I'm going to get myself a 2000 GTV 1971-72 as soon as i find a nice one...

2 liter engines DOHC that some have been able to fire up to 300 Hp is nice...

Been in a 1967 GT350 shelby once it was a hell of a ride !!

N

[C5 Golfer]

There is just no Replacement for Displacement!

Any of those 60s motors - 426, 427, 454, 421, hooked up to a 4 speed manual = eye popping jaw dropping ride!

[skategoat]

pontiac GTO 65-66 !

but am getting addicted to the Alfa Romeo lately.. less brutal power, and easier to find in France than the Tri - power GTO's.

I'm going to get myself a 2000 GTV 1971-72 as soon as i find a nice one...

2 liter engines DOHC that some have been able to fire up to 300 Hp is nice...

Been in a 1967 GT350 shelby once it was a hell of a ride !!

N

Now you're talking. I owned a '90 Alfa Spider and driving that car in the city, darting in and out of traffic is the most fun I've ever had in a car with my clothes on. I sold it and bought a Porsche 911 but I still miss the Spider. It brought more smiles to my face than the 911.

I also owned a '86 GTV-6. Great engine, fun drive but the styling was dated. I had to sell that because the air conditioning couldn't keep up with the heat pouring out of the emergency brake boot. It got so hot around the boot that I could wedge a cup of coffee there and it would stay warm all day. On a hot summer day, I would get out of the car drenched in sweat.

For the last 10 years I've been looking for a Bertone coupe. Non rusty examples are hard to find. Good luck with your search and post photos when you find yours.

[Bullwings]

There is just no Replacement for Displacement!

Replacement ---- TURBO(S) (if you want two)

[C5 Golfer]

Replacement ---- TURBO(S) (if you want two)

It is ok to agree to disagree right? I just prefer that gawd awful rumble of low rpm torque just waiting for the little squirt of atomized gas and oxygen to fill that large cavity AKA displacement as it roars to life, shakes your inerds, snaps your head back, twists the frame, earth shakin fire breathing V-8.

Sorry - have to ask -- do you like cheese with that turbo whine??

[nils]

skategoat...indeed thats the bertone i'm after...i was considering going for a giulia sprint from the 60's, but they are more expensive to find parts for, and the engine is the same but less riliable. The 1750 is stylish but is still lacking a few stuff ( slip differential) that the 2000 has.. Hence the choice...i want to use it as company car too for downtown drives...I'll get the engine a custom work for 170-180 hp which seems the limit for reliable drive ( 7500 rpm). What is good is there was many Bertone in europe and you can find a good one at around 12 k euros.

I heard great things about the later alfa engines derived from that one 1.8 turbo etc...but the rest of the car is the worst ever built buy alfa in terms of bulky look and quality of construction...

Btw a bit off topic, but i'm wondering what's the decypher key is to all those 421 - 426 etc names of GMC engines... can someone sum it up quick...?

Is it the cubic inches? what were the big family trees of the days etc.. thnx :)

Nils

[AaronG]

Nils, that is indeed what the manifacturers are talking about, CUBIC INCHES!! The classic motors are a Mopar 426 Hemi, Chevy 427, or a Ford 428 Cobra Jet, all of these motors created lots of horsepower but the main thing they produced was tons of torque. Horspower looks good on paper but torque is what gets the vehicle moving!!

My favorite muscle car is a '68 Yenko S/S Camaro. Very rare!! There was a Chevy delaership in the 60s that would buy a 327 powered Camaro from Chevy, once at the dealership, Yenko Chvrolet would pull out the small block and drop in a 427 Cubic inch with 425 h.p. They are worth gobs and gobs of money now.

BTW, I own a Bertone Coupe, not an Alfa though. It is a Volvo. I will post a pic soon!! I am hearing you C5!!

[Bullwings]

It is ok to agree to disagree right? I just prefer that gawd awful rumble of low rpm torque just waiting for the little squirt of atomized gas and oxygen to fill that large cavity AKA displacement as it roars to life, shakes your inerds, snaps your head back, twists the frame, earth shakin fire breathing V-8.

Sorry - have to ask -- do you like cheese with that turbo whine??

haha, disagreement is cool.

As for displacement vs. turbos. I love both. The low end torque of American muscle is amazing, and the way those engines rumble and make everything shake at idle is awesome. That snap your head back feeling, grind the asphalt from start is insane. That's definitely only something displacement can accomplish. Insane, untamed brute power. Low end torque cannot be beat.

Turbos are a different bread of animal. I equally enjoy turbos. And the funny thing is that, I've actually experienced more head snapping back in a turbo (older turbos -- the newer turbos are so smooth and have virtually no lag). When that turbo kicks in, it snaps your head back in a very jolting and unexpected way, and produces more peak torque than american muscle. The old Porsches are testament to this. Peeling out while moving at 85 mph on the freeway is something I've only seen on a turbo, which in its own right is awesome.

As for the sound, the rumble of American push rod V8s is unique and enthralling and has that wow factor, but turbos. The sound of that "whoosh" is almost jet like. As for whining, ehh, maybe in some cars, but the turbo cars i've been in have been more of a jet like whoooosh that makes it sound like you're gonna take off and fly.... and then... you do.

All of that being said, I equally enjoy both.

And if you think turbos are whiny, wait till the future (25 years from now -- if you're still holding a drivers license :p J/K) when hybrids, electric, and fuel cell cars become the norm. They already have electric and hybrid prototype cars putting out 450 hp (dunno about torque), and one hybrid car on the market that has 400+ hp.

oh yeah, and I have to add this, since I have a feeling no one is familiar with the De Tomaso pantera (and yes, it is American).

here's a 1972 model with a 5763 cc V8.

[C5 Golfer]

haha, disagreement is cool.

oh yeah, and I have to add this, since I have a feeling no one is familiar with the De Tomaso pantera (and yes, it is American).

here's a 1972 model with a 5763 cc V8

Good vote for the De Tomaso-- +1

Also turbos did well for GM -- the Buick Grand National - v6 that kicked a**. Rumor was it pi**ed off a few Corvette Execs since it beat Corvette in the 1/4 mile which was verboten at GM. Any way enjoy the read...

"""But the big news for 1987 was the introduction of the limited edition GNX. Only available for 1987, the Buick GNX represents the height of Grand National performance. In a nod to the famous Buick GSXs of 1970-1972, the GNX logo featured a larger "X" than the other letters, just like the GSX logo. All GNXs began life as fully optioned Grand Nationals that immediately left the factory and were sent to ASC/McLaren Specialty Products in order to be extensively modified. The modifications included a more efficient Garrett air-to-air intercooler and a special pipe that connected the intercooler to the engine coated with CERMATEL (Ceramic/aluminum) for increased heat rejection and heat disipation. Front fender vents were installed to pull heat away from the engine while driving. The GNX also received a special Garrett "hybrid" T-s turbocharger that used a very lightweight ceramic impeller (as opposed to metal in standard Grand Nationals). The decreased weight allows the turbo charger to spin up much faster, thereby decreasing the turbo lag time inherent in turbo charged engines. Maximum boost was set at 15 psi and the turbo used an electric wastegate. The turbo also incorporated special low drag, dynamic turbine shaft seals, and a built in contamination trap. All of these modifications added up to 275 bhp and a whooping 360 lb-ft. To handle this extra power, the transmission was beefed up with firmer shifts and the rear axle received a longitudinal torque ladder bar with a panhard rod to help prevent wheel hop and torque twist. It also received a special rear axle housing cover made of aluminum (with GNX embossed on it) that serves as an additional strengthening element and point for the torque bar. For even more strengthening, the car body received special structural reinforcements in the form of "behind the back seat bracing" and special chassis (steel cross member between the chassis rails) bracing. The GNX was the only Regal to ever receive 16 inch wheels. The wheels were made of a lightweight alloy and the rear wheels were wider than the front. The GNX came with P245/50VR16 tires in front and P255/50VR16 tires in the rear. Special welded in fender flares were added to the wheel wells to make room for the larger wheels and tires. The standard transmission was a reprogrammed Turbo Hydra-matic 200-4R four speed hooked up to a custom torque converter. Inside, the dash had a special Steward Warner analog gauge package. All GNXs were black in color and the only exterior identification was small "GNX" badges placed on the front radiator grille and rear deck lid. Under the hood, a special turbocharger heat shield had "GNX" stamped on it, similar to the aluminum rear axle cover. All GNXs received a special numbered plaque mounted on the passenger side dash which identified the number of that particular car (1-547). Also, the Fisher body plate has "GNX" stamped on it. Special "GNX" decals were used on the intercooler and other locations and there were several hidden I.D. stampings to prevent fakes. But all of this came at a price. The cost of the GNX option was a whopping $10,995, which resulted in a final MSRP of $29,900. All out performance doesn't come cheap.

Even more rare are the Buick Regal T-Type "Special T." These models had a Grand National exterior, but a Regal T-Type interior.

Production: Grand Nationals: 20,193 GNX: 547

Engines: . GNX: 3.8L V6 Turbo 276 bhp @ 4400 rpm, 360 ft-lb @ 3000 rpm.

Performance: GNX: 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 13.43 seconds @ 103 mph.

[AaronG]

Oh yes, the GNX. Rumor has it that the FBI purchased a few of these vehicles for pursuits. Being that they were a government agency they didn't have to run the cars in road going form. I read in Road and Track many years ago that they pumped the h.p. up to 330. In speed runs that they did the cars would go so fast that the side windows would begin to suck out due the lack of window frames and the huge low pressure area that would surround the car caused by the lack of aerodynamics in the Buick Regal. The FBI cured the problem by applying liberal amounts of duct tape to the windows.

Another car/truck that I would like to have would be the GMC Syclone and Typhoon, same motor as the GNX but with all wheel drive. There was an attorney around these parts that owned both of them, a black Syclone and a white Typhoon. Too bad he was such an as*hole!!

[nils]

so all those big GM engines can be switch from one engine bay to another? do they all have same outside dimensions? How do they fit to the gear boxes is it all standard?

Indeed feeling a big V8 idle is something not to be forgotten drove once a 1974 huge engine Camaro and it was freightening ( not sure if the frightening came from the power, of the fact that the rest of the car was not safe for my taste for the power it had, or from my inexperience..).

Its true that euros have smaller engines with higher rpm's and lower torque, we try to save gas ;) that's why!

I definitely love the De Tomaso ( i prefer the earlier version without the body fittings).

Another crazy car that must be rare in north america is opel's lotus omega.

They took a big sedan like the taurus, fitted a lotus 400hp engine in it and the result is this: video

taking about those huge engines when we're trying to save energy is bad btw :)

N

[jdgang]

The Grand National/GNX was a great car. A friend of mine had a GN in High School. What a beast, but I would go for the 89 turbo trans am instead. One of the mandates at GM is that no car can have more advertised horsepower then the Corvette. At the time the Corvette had the 245hp 350 V-8 so the turbo TA was advertised with 240hp same as the GN, but this was incorrect the 3.8 buick turbo motor actually had 300-310hp. As for a classic muscle car my favorite has always been the 64 GTO w/389 tripower.

[skategoat]

And if you think turbos are whiny, wait till the future (25 years from now -- if you're still holding a drivers license :p J/K) when hybrids, electric, and fuel cell cars become the norm. They already have electric and hybrid prototype cars putting out 450 hp (dunno about torque), and one hybrid car on the market that has 400+ hp.

Nice thing about electric motors is that the torque curve is pretty linear. Max torque is available immediately (0 rpms) and doesn't really drop significantly through the rpm range. Found a neat graph that illustrates here:

http://www.olino.org/images/articles/tesla_motor_torque_curve.gif

[pebu]

Turbos are cool and all. Even I love the whine as you stomp on it. But if you really want a monster, you're gonna have to blow it. I'd just love to see that blower stickin out of the hood, just rattlin in tune with the engine.. And if you're into the sound, that's the thing that'll really shake your bones.

[Bullwings]

Porsche was the pioneer for turbo technology as far as i'm concerned (and still is).

In 1982, they had a prototype 944 turbo (951 factory number) that they raced and it killed all the other cars with only a 2.5 liter inline 4 cylinder engine.

In 1986, they released the public version of 951. At the time, it was the fastest car tested by Road and Track for their top 10 cars of the year. It was even faster than the Corvette of that time. Mind you, this car also had an inline 2.5L inline 4 -- no whopping push rod V8 muscle, but more than enough to run with the best of them.

And, in 1978 or so, they had the old 911 turbos going too (930 factory number).

Oh yeah, and the De Tomaso isn't fully American, it has its fair share of European blood (or metal i should say) -- but that should probably be evident from the body styling.

Skategoat: that makes complete sense to me, now that I think about my R/C cars with Electric vs. Nitro (gasoline to you non- R/C car people). The torque curve would be flat throughout the whole rpm curve

[C5 Golfer]

so all those big GM engines can be switch from one engine bay to another? do they all have same outside dimensions? How do they fit to the gear boxes is it all standard?

]

taking about those huge engines when we're trying to save energy is bad btw :)

N

Swapping engines in different cars was pretty easy a while back.. Lots of engine room - even to where on some you could almost climb inside an engine compartment and close the hood. Swapping some engines and parts were easier than others. If you compare Chevy small block V-8 with Ford's engine - the Chevy V-8 engine started in 1955 with a 265 cu in went on to 283, 302, 307, 327, 350 and 400 with basically the same motor mount system and most internal parts interchangeable. So one could take a 327 block and build a 302 or a 327 or a 350 depending on what stroke of the crank you used. To hear a well builkd tuned 302 is music to the ears. Made the Z-28 Camero quite famous. This motor is basically unchanged from its early days to todays well designed and built LS1 Corvette motor 5.7 liter motor and the LS2 6.0 liter motor, and is still a push rod design. Amazing! 52 year old design and still top of the class. One interesting fact on custom built "Hot Rods - Roadsters" the most popular body style like the 1925-1940s are Fords have more Chevy small block engines in them than they do have Ford engines. Ford engines starting with the 312 cu in and 351 and 352s are complete puzzles and know one knows why. Regarding gear boxes -- there are so many adapters out there for so many trannys you can mix and match just about anything.

[tex1230]

bored out to 950cc, 206mph top speed...0-60 in OMFG!

[pebu]

One interesting fact on custom built "Hot Rods - Roadsters" the most popular body style like the 1925-1940s are Fords have more Chevy small block engines in them than they do have Ford engines.

One of the saddest stories I know of is of my buddy and his dad. They're real ford guys. (I'm a chevy guy, but it has no bearing on this story...) Randy (the dad) has a real nice Model A, I believe with a mustang engine driving it that he drags. Beautiful car and it sounds good and everything. He also has a pinto that he souped up and drags. Another beautiful car (as long as it has fatties on the back). And Kevin has a Lincoln that they souped up and it's got good sound and gets up pretty good. And then the blasphemy happens.. They've had this 56 chevy sittin in their garage out back for years... It's finally running again... with a ford engine!

When they told me that I just about cried... I think it's considered vandalism or destruction of property or something. I mean, being a ford guy is one thing, but doing that...

[C5 Golfer]

One of the saddest stories I know of is of my buddy and his dad. And then the blasphemy happens.. They've had this 56 chevy sittin in their garage out back for years... It's finally running again... with a ford engine!

When they told me that I just about cried... I think it's considered vandalism or destruction of property or something. I mean, being a ford guy is one thing, but doing that...

That's right up there with owning an Edsel or worse - what the special stunt company of one of the recent James Bond movies - don't remember which one - installed a Ford engine in one of the Aston Martins for some of the movie stunts.