kjl Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Pedantic snowboarding technique discussion below. I finally got some turns in over the holiday break, and I was trying to incorporate some heelside advice from Phil (I think?) from last summer. My heelside is still weak, and I need advice. I can carve my heelside fairly hard without skidding, finish the turn, etc.. It's just that it doesn't feel right. In particular, it feels like the tail is about to slide out at any time, so I end up having to put all my weight on the front foot. It works, but it doesn't feel as good as the toeside. What I was trying The advice I was trying to incorporate was 1) not rotating my hips towards the nose so much, because it torsionally twists the board such that the edge angle near the tail flattens out and 2) dorsiflexing the ankles to increase edge angle. In order to even further reduce the "tail about to wash out" feeling, I also changed the back binding from 3* towards-the-nose cant to 3* pure heel-lift, and increased my stance angles by a few degrees (up to ~57/55). What it feels like I still feel like my tail has less edge angle than the nose. If my weight was centered or back towards the tail, the turn radius would get larger, and I would start to feel uneasy about skidding out, though it never actually happened. I had to ride with ~70% of my weight on the front foot, which would then be a very strong carve, but feels less forgiving in case of bumps in the snow, and I worry about folding the nose. I'm riding: 173 F2 Speedster RS (14m sidecut). It's quite stiff (stiff was chosen, again, to lessen the amount that the board can torsionally twist). Angles are ~57/55. I'm riding with a 3* TD1-style "towards-the-tail" cant on the front foot and 3* pure heel-lift on the back foot. Here are some images of me last February (thanks, ScottF), before I was trying the new technique tips, but I imagine I probably look roughly the same now as well. Any tips appreciated. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 I used to encounter the heelside wash out, the biggest change for me occured when I simply moved my downhill hand in front of me. Like riding a bicycle. Looking at your pictures it seems that your downhill hand is trailing behind you a bit allowing your upper body to twist in the opposite direction of your hips. In slalom water skiing this is called having an open chest to the boat, that is your chest is facing the boat. What I try to shoot for is to have my chest closed in that your upper torso is facing the direction to whick you are heading. The bottom picture it appears that your hand may be in front of you or its the angle of the shooter. Looking at the edge angle of the board in the photos looks like you are generating tons of edge angle, so I wouldn't think this is a problem. I am sure some of the more eloquent typers here can help you out more than I can. I'm sure someone will be able to offer you the proper advice I used to have trouble carving heelsides on steeps with this simple change in hand position it allowed me to rail most of the steeper runs around here with no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Oh, ****... I was going to say the opposite. I thought your right arm might have been getting too far in front for that far into the turn! Unless I'm getting tired, can't hold the pressure and need a big rotation to close a turn off late, I will try NOT to let my back hand get too far ahead of my back foot, or too far behind it. This keeps me from trying to finish turns on the front foot with rotation, making it more about pressure. You can also back foot pivot at the end of a heel turn really well in this alingned-with-your-angles position, where you pull the front leg up to a higher line, with your pivot point under the back foot. In this situatoin, there is usually a back end weight bias, pretty opposite to what you say you are feeling now with 70% up front. Alot of the power here seems to come from the core and abdominals. It never really makes it to the arms and shoulders and winding up looking like "turned to the nose" rotation. It almost comes off looking like counter-rotation, if you started with a big shouder move to the fall line. Whatever you do, keep looking into the turn like you do. Your head position is agressive. Most riders get so fucused down the hill, to the fall line, that they don't really look to the sides, where they're going half the time. This seems to me like the cause of alot of stance and balance (and then pressure by default) problems. I had some problems with this, too: Trying to look where I'm going, totally sticking my chin out into the turn, without reaching so far around with my back hand, unweigting the tail. **I'm editing this to say that your technique is really good now, so you have a killing style. Everthing above is just for the sake of nit-picking, a brutal instructor habit.** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csquared Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 ... and that's all it is but your stance seems to be a bit back of center in the third photo. This could be appropriate at the completion of a turn but you still seem to just be crossing the fall line in the photo. With your weight further back on the board, it is going to start to feel as though the edge is pressured to the limit when you are just past the fall line and exerting the most pressure. You still need to be somewhat forward of center in this part of the turn. You could try keeping your weight further forward or you could try 0 degrees cant on the front or even 6 degrees on the back to force your stance forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Is oldvolvosrule looking at the same pictures I am? Because I see your right hand out in front of you in each pic. It appears from these pictures, especially the bottom pic, that your hips are rotated <i>back</i> slightly, as in, towards the edge. Your hip angle appears lower than your binding angle. If this is true, there's some funkiness going on there. You at least want your hips facing your toes. In each picture I'd like to see a little more forward drive with the rear knee. Don't forget to drive the nose hard at first and then settle back for the second half or third quarter of the turn. You might be reaching for the snow a tad much with that front hand, and it looks like there might be some shoulder dip in the bottom pic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 You're counter-rotating with your hips..... K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 I can carve my heelside fairly hard without skidding, finish the turn, etc.. It's just that it doesn't feel right. In particular, it feels like the tail is about to slide out at any time, so I end up having to put all my weight on the front foot. It works, but it doesn't feel as good as the toeside. Try moving your stance forward a couple centimeters. If it doesn't work, or if screws up your toesides, you can always put it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow|3oarder Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 isnt there a euphamism for when your butt is out of place? petting the dog? something with a toilet? ......my memory is failing me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Is oldvolvosrule looking at the same pictures I am? Because I see your right hand out in front of you in each pic.. Jack, what i was trying to point out is his chest is not pointing in the direction of travel, for an example, look at your avatar, your chest is pointing in the direction of travel, although your hand is down at your side, which is very graceful looking but may or may not be proper technique. By me telling KJL to reach further with his right hand it would align his chest and possibly his hips with the direction of travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted January 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Thanks for all the replies. When I rode in those pictures I felt like I was overrotating my shoulders, but perhaps for me rotating my shoulders is not dragging along my hips. Judging from the photos and reading all your comments, it does indeed look like my hips are underrotated. Oops! Perhaps Jack's suggestion of driving my back knee forwards will help to bring the hips around as well, or I will have to think of a different body trick to try. Also, do most people do that "feeding the dollar" thing that Jack and csquared were mentioning (starting the turn on the nose of the board and settling back to the tail over the duration of the carve)? Rob: No worries on being nitpicky - that's what I wanted when I posted in the first place ;) Thanks again, all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 I'm an interested reader cos I have similar problems with my heelside turns. The general technique wisdom on this site is for your body to be in alignment - hips and shoulders in alignment with binding angles. In this case, the shoulders are aligned with the binding angles (good) but the hips are not (bad). The hips, as you say, are lagging behind (counter-rotated). How to fix it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicHard Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 To my mind, the solution you provide (put the weight more on the front foot) is... the problem! If you put too much weight on the front foot, you download the tail and, as soon as it can, it goes away. From what I see in the pictures, I would try not to rotate too much (please, stay with hips in line with binding angle, there's no need to rotate more or less) and keep your back shoullder lower and your inside hand far from the snow. With your back hand, try to touch the toe of the back boot. It's strange but you will notice that putting the front hand off the snow and the back hand on the toe of the back boot you will be able to put your board a lot more on the edge. From the pictures, it seems that only the front foot is keeping the load. Regards, Richard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 The hip position shown in your pix is something I battled for a long time, and occasionally still find myself reverting to (especially on steep, narrow runs). IIRC you attended a Snowperformance camp at Mt Hood a few years ago? Several of Sean's drills have helped me fight this problem, in particular the Bamboo Drill (described on Jack's drill page - http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/practice_drills.cfm) In particular I find that this drill keeps me from rotating, exaggerating, etc and just puts me in the right spot on both toeside and heelside turns. Whenever my form feels off, I hold an imaginary bamboo stick in position and even that helps. In fact, when I was hitting a twisty, narrow groomer yesterday (Dentist's Way @ Bachelor) and was having to bail because I was opening my hips and losing my edge. I did the Imaginary Bamboo trick for a few runs and nailed 'em, each better than the previous. Disclaimer: I'm telling you what works for me. I'm not a coach nor an expert on carving technique (although I am striving to be both some day!) so I welcome anything someone with more expertise than I has to say about my advice... even if it's "don't listen to Mike and here's why! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 If pressure control is the main focus (for hard snow), then "starting with rotation and then settling back" (Jack on rotation to counter-rotation) and "raising the inside hand, while reaching for your back toe" (RicHard on angulation), is great advice. If you start having trouble with speed control when you do these things, there's a cure for that too (back foot pivot your nose to a higher line) I don't see your hips out of alignment with your feet and I gave a hard squint at those pics. If you do think your hips are rotated back, maybe they're trying to compensate for your shoulder rotation, in an effort to keep some weight on the tail. In the end, the only reason to change anything you're doing in your photos would be for hard snow or ice, where pressure is the big concern. Look at the EC boys... they rotate alot, but because of the snow they do it on and the fact that they're going slower than a racer would (body-drag speed-brake), they don't skid out. The race guys riding in rutted, icy courses will call you out for completing with rotation and the inclination because this is a good way to blow out of a course. Facing the nose (Oldvolvosrule on rotation) is not wrong... it just has consequences if you do it on the wrong day. Jack is definitely facing the nose in his avatar, but he's not going for the kind of turn Kjl is trying to improve (the hard snow turn). He's ripping a classic "hero-snow" arc. If he wanted to, he could go full EC from there very easily. Horses for courses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Gotcha, oldvolvos. I agree on the chest. Gotta disagree with RicHard here, starting a heelside carve with weight forward is very important. That's the foundation of the whole turn, imo. Feed the dollar. And since it's being so discussed here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicHard Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 starting a heelside carve with weight forward is very important. That's the foundation of the whole turn, imo. Feed the dollar.And since it's being so discussed here: Ehm... didn't you post a frontside carve picture? :-O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Ehm... didn't you post a frontside carve picture? :-O Right, I posted that because people were mentioning my avatar. But here's a heelside: http://bomberonline.com/JackM/jm_profile/heelside.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullwings Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 I've been reading here, carver's almanac, EC and i still don't know where i should be facing. some say to face the nose of the board. others say, you should align your hips with your binding angles and face roughly in the direction of your binding angles. (i'm seeing more of this than the former) I'm really confused as to where I should be facing. Is this kind of a racing technique vs. recreational/extreme carving technique kind of thing? Maybe if i just hopped on a skwal instead that would make life easier -- I'd be facing my binding angles AND the nose... on the feed the dollar note, I'm liking that. i noticed that i can carve much tighter and smaller radii when i load up the nose at initiation, but it also treated me to the "folding the nose" experience for the first time. that was scary and cool at the same time, but only because i came out of it without injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicHard Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 I'm really confused as to where I should be facing. I suggest you not to compare extremecarving with racing technique: they are absolutely different things. But I would suggest to try (improving any of them) all of the techniques in order to choose which suits (at the best) you. Ciao! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to the wall... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to the wall... welcome to my world. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Kjl is not the "wall" I'm talking about. Sorry, Bullwings... I'm just being an un-caffienated prick (I should get my coffee on before I visit this site). The intention of the feedback here was to improve a race-type of turn (the EC guys were calling it "Bomber" style), where you would be in-line with your binding angles when pressuring, due to unforgiving snow conditions and the need to stay centered and adjust direction fast (race courses). The "face the nose", highly-rotated freecarve style is something Kjl seems to have down already and is best used when the snow is soft and you can turn where you want. Someone used the term "Freeracer" somewhere on the site... This is a great term to describe the skills you have to have to carve the whole mountain. Being able to identify snow types and pitches quickly will let you use a technique suited for what you're riding on. I'll use this tired saying again: There is nothing wrong with using xxxxxxxx technique, it just has consequences if you do it in the wrong place or time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 So what does the "face-the-nose" style buy you, Rob? Does it improve the quality of the turn in any way? I don't interpret that from what you say, as you advise using it only when conditions are forgiving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Here in Banff, conditions are forgiving most of the time, so, I like to rotate alot. What does it "buy" me? Well, I guess it allows me to purely carve down steeper slopes, where I might want to pivot if I was "Bomber"ing it. Nothing scrubs speed in a carve like EC. Facing the nose also lets me pivot faster, quickly moving from one edge to another, but I usually do this in a short "slarving" (slide-carving) turn, for trees and tight spaces. When the snow goes firm and chopped up, I'll stay more centered and try to stay with my angles so I can recover to neutral if I slip. Horses for courses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullwings Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Kjl is not the "wall" I'm talking about.Sorry, Bullwings... I'm just being an un-caffienated prick (I should get my coffee on before I visit this site). no offense taken here at all. and yes, i would be a wall, or a noob, rookie, etc. etc. it's kind of hard for me to take in all the technical talk and apply it to my riding. I've only had 5 days in hardboots so far and i'm running into the common heelside problems that many have. also, i've never seen myself nor have i ridden with anyone that knows and understand hardboot technique so i can't see what i'm doing wrong, and no one is going to tell me what i'm doing wrong. a lot of it is trial and error and trying to remember exactly what i was doing when i washed out or put down a really nice low carve that surprised me. in short, just because i read something, doesn't mean i can translate it to my board, or even know what it means exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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