Guest aikidan Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I've read the recent thread about tuning and it left me with one question. For others like me who ride most of the time here in the east (Vermont for me) dealing with our often pretty hard conditions, what sort of edge bevel might you be using? Are you staying with the pure 90 or something else? tnx.....dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest soulrider Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 After last weeks rain all of the "loose granular" has been scraped off to a solid ice base.The best New Jersey has to offer ! I go with an acute angle of 1 deg. base and 1 or 2 deg. edge depending on which board.I use these angles even on my soft setup but I detune the tip / tail . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 FWIW, I always go with a one degree base and two degree side bevel on my boards and skis. Pretty good for all around the mountain and the edge gets a little more bite when things firm up. -Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt D Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I use the same as Sean. 1 degree base, 2 degree side. The first board I ever owned was an Oxygen Vibe 163 from 97-98 year. It had a marking by the edge near the tail that said "Diamond Disc Edge Finish". So I went on the net and discovered that all new Oxygen boards came with a 1 base, 2 side bevel from the factory. I was so satisfied with it, I've stuck with those #'s ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtnpig Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Would any one know what the Sims Burner 197 edge bevels would be when the boards are new (in the wrapper)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I picked up a 197 Burner still in the shrink wrap. The edge work was shockingly bad- so bad that you could look down the edge lengthwise and see burred ripples where the production guy gooned it up it on the stone. Needless to say I couldn't even take a guess at what the bevel was supposed to be, so I invested the bucks in a fresh stone grind and hand finished the bevel myself with a good set of file guides. I then did four waxings before it ever saw snow. I know Doneks Coilers and Priors come out well tuned but I would be wary of anything else. -Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin A. Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I ride exclusivley (fancy for I can't afford to go anywhere else) in NH and VT. I use a 1 degree on the base and 1.5-2 degree on the side most of the length, a little bit steeper on the nose and tail. Yes, Im anal about my board :-D. Ice rocks! -Justin ________ Silver Surfer Vaporizer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt D Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Ice Does Rock Justin! Because if you can rip on Ice, you can rip on anything. Ice Coast Rules! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtslalom Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I use a 1 degree bevel on the side edge and flat 0 degree on the base edge on my Volkl (SL) and Rossignal (GS) boards. I use a 2 degree bevel on the side edge of my e-deck and flat on the base. The mountain I ride on is constantly icy and I seem to hold an edge just fine with these angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 zero bottom 2 degree side bottom bevel has a vague feeling before engagement. I would be interested in peoples experiences with different amounts of detuning though. ________ Honda Z50J history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 At my age, I use one degree side and one degree bottom because it's easy to remember!:D It's always worked fine for me and it lasts longer. Of course I only just had my board waxed after about thirty times out...no sense getting anal about it. I'm still passing just about everyone on my hill.:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 I need to detune my boards about 10 cm in front and in back. I use 1 degree base bevel and 90 edge seems to work ok for me, but if I dont detune my board, when skidding turns or sideslipping on ice or boiler plate man made snow, (I am a patroller, I do have to slow down or stop once in a while) My boards grab big time and its tough to keep my balance. With the edges detuned, I can sideslip easily. I doesnt affect its hold on hard pack while carving that I can notice. I think it makes the board handle easier all around for every day riding. IMHO if you ride groomed all day and dont skid any turns at all (RACING?), you probably dont have to detune, but normal freecarving you should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 fleaman- what board are you using? Do you find different amounts of detune work better for you on different boards? Do some detune asymetrically? I've been considering this that my detune might work better is I detune more from the front on the heelside and less from the rear- but the opposite on the toeside. Figuring that the points of pressue are further back on the heel side. Anyone done this with favorable results? ________ HONDA Z-SERIES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cmc Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 no one detunes these days except for soft booters. Heck ,not even on powder days. Why bother? You are only slightly ever so slightly dulling the edge. The question is if you guys are detuning, detuning with what? There are different grade grits for gummi stones. I would recomend not detuning. If you have to, use the dark grey gummi. Stratton rocked this past week, more so than ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 I think if the snow is firm up on the surface yet a little softer underneath....the nose can sink a bit and then grab again. That is when I feel a need for detuning. As for high speed chatter- how many people notice a difference when detuning? ________ Vino 125 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 I detune my coiler pr 188 and also my rossi alpine 165. I use an edge hone to detune my boards. I havent played with detune length so I cant help you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 I never detune. If I want a shorter effective edge length I'd use a shorter board. I don't really understand what dulling the edges is supposed to achieve, but it's not sumething I appear to need. I ride 90 degree edges on ice and anything else. The metal seems to work fine and this seems the most efficient and easiest use of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cmc Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 best answer yet Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 The wonderful art of detuning from the beautiful days of straight skis. Do any of you guys enjoy straight skis? I didn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 If you flex the board into an arc...then any part of the edge that could contact the snow yet.....significantly "deviates" from this arc should be detuned....NO? I woulndn't wat teh nose part of the deck to be grabbing in deeper snow.... I've always done sharp tip to tail and only detuned after te full edge contact points. I was just wondering it peopoe actually go less chatter and higher performance if they detuned a bit on the effective edge parts...Anyone done some A/B testing? ________ Vermont Dispensaries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 John, And all others I have played with detuning a lot and when I was a East Coaster I shared CMC’s no detune Idea for a while. Detuning the edge were it begins and finishes the Cut is important You nailed the fact that a sharp surface coming into the cut will drag it also allows the sharper edge that follows the dull surface to begin the cut more smoothly. If the sharp surface is forced to start the cut it does not always do so smoothly resulting in chatter as you mentioned. The importance of the dull surface is not to induce or allow slide as others may have indicated but as you know allows the rider to come off the edge more effectively. The lack of a contact to contact detune is responsible for the dreaded folding of the nose followed by the infamous catapult over it. It is the instant grab by the undetuned edge that forces the nose into a bent rapidly since there is no slide only grab the energy must go some were and it does. It travels right into the nose loading it quickly. We all know the horrible out come. The lack of a tail detune is responsible for so many trips into the woods. (Sorry John I am sure trees are not your friend right now) If the tail is sharp all the way to the end it does not have a release point. This is responsible for the locked in feeling while over weighting the tail. John I am happy to share more info about detuning but would prefer to do it of BOL. My whole team tried lots of interesting tuning in the late 90’s. Also it is important what you classify as a detune. When I mentioned contact to contact full detune I mean just that. I round my edge down if it does not contact the snow. On all my sticks! 1. It is much nicer to anything the edge may come in contact with. Since it is more likely to misdirect the board vs. cutting into a object with a sharp edge. It is possible the object may be a soft person, so I would like to minimize damage. 2. Having a smooth round tip and tail you are less likely to hang them up if you are sliding or spinning Out of Control. It is nice to know only the parts of your board made to cut try to. 3. I ride switch and slide rails and boxes and spin. just like a free style rider it is good to know my tip or tail is not going to hang up coming out of a spin or catch a box or rail, Plus when I'm riding switch I need all the “nose” I can get. The freestyle out look of the detune is much more aggressive. And may involve the dulling of the whole edge The Amount of edge into and out of the cutting surface that is dull is only around 50-70 mils at the nose and 30-50mils at the tail. this only results in a 1 to 1.2 cm reduction in SHARP EDGE surface. You can detune more to make a longer board feel shorter or ease the force in and out of the turn. It is up to you. Side bevel is a personal preference and has a effect on board feel. The idea is to create a sharp surface the cutting angle can be as little as 90 or much more aggressive. If you have a 1 base 1 side you still have a 90 degree edge you have only rotated it one degree from the base. meaning you have to angle the board 1 degree more then before to cut the same. However the thought on base bevel depends on snow conditions and pitch while racing, But is truly relevant when the board is flat out side of the coarse while in the coarse the board is rarely flat! The most noticeable of the bevels is the base bevel free riding once it is elevated as little as half a degree most riders can feel a difference. The most common is the “swimming sensation” Once the edge breaks contact or loses suction with the snow you are only gliding on the base. With out the apposing arcs (Edges with side cut) pushing toward one another and stabilizing the board it is forced to glide with out accurate guidance on a film on water in any direction. A good base structure and condition are the only way to retrieve some control. Side bevel , in conjunction with base bevel allows us to increase the sharpness of the edge. By using the ever so common 2 side 1 base we have rotated the edge one degree off the snow and sharpened the edge one more degree increase the edge angle to 89 degrees. As with a knife if we increase the side bevel while the base bevel remains unchanged by providing a “thinner” edge or “sharper point” at 89 degrees it is a sharper surface. The problem that can occur is we cold make the edge to thin to the point it can not with stand the force and it folds. This does not happen until after 15 degrees of side bevel that brings the cutting edge to 84 degrees with the one base bevel However as every day riders the durability of our edge is more important then the sharpness of the cutting surface so we choose to run a less severe cutting angle so as to prolong the life of the edge. A thinner angle wears faster the a nice meat 90 or 89 or 88 degrees. While racing we would run cutting angles up to 85 degrees and base bevel was always the riders preference. It was also not uncommon for us to run bevels that changed under foot or at different points on the board. There are a lot of different bevels on a given day on the same course. Most riders develop a feel for the board and use beveling to fine tune how the board handles, Beveling is so important that it can change the riding characteristics of any board and is as personalized to each rider as there boots. Every one does however detune contact to contact regardless of there bevel. Quick edit. Curt this is for you. I use a file to detune after I have a nice clean edge I round the sharp into the dull at the tip and tail( witch have been rounded contact to contact.) I know where the contact point is and only use a few mils of edge to smooth it out. I try to insure the edge blends well quickly then I will polish it with whatever I am polising with that day. Grit depending on need. As in a finer grite on race day and whatever to free ride. I dont own any gummy stones just paper. I also round of my tail corners so it is easier to spin from switch to regular on edge. And doesnt grap. Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sic t 2 Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Bordy The lack of a contact to contact detune is responsible for the dreaded folding of the nose followed by the infamous catapult over it. My friend picked up his freestyle board from the Hunter Mountain tuning shop this weekend. First tune in almost 2 seasons. He went with 1 base / 3 side, with NO DETUNING. It was a "sick sharp" tune too. He was going wild on all the icy slopes. Then, on Broadway, in a modest carve on hardpack, I watched his nose fold and he catapulted. Broken collar bone. Badly broken with only partial contact. Looks like surgery. He is out for the season and maybe 1/2 the slalom skiing season too. I told him that freeride would be a lot more prone to folding: "be careful!" Nahhhhhh..... 8 days in Utah trees, over this past Xmas, and we were both unscathed. Thought for sure one of us tourists would lose a tibia aganst a buried horizontal log out there. Instead the detune god decided to bite us back east. Sic t 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frappe Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 no one detunes these days except for soft booters. I beg to differ. I raced on a BX-style soft-setup (Nitro Torque, Burton Bindings, Nitro Boots) this season, and only detuned anything at all once, and that was only the very tip of the board, no effective edge detuning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Just talked with some tune big wigs 1.5 base and 3 degree side are the most common bevel on the world cup. One of them mention there has been a big debat over the WORD detune latley. Many people are still considering the standerd 5 to 10 cm edge smoothing idea. This is not how you should detune a snow board at all it was once common for non shaped ski to have as much as 10 cm of detune on a GS ski. This is not the detuning I am pimping. Perhaps we are all talking of a different style. I am talking 50 to 70 mm of blending from sharp to round at the tip and 30 to 50 mm of blending from round to sharp at the tail. At the contact points. I was told that tognar.com has some good info in a email from a friend but have not been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JohnSch Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 First, thanks all and particularly Billy, great stuff and I know it took you a lot of time to put it up for us. For the detune below the contact point, I personally do not have the same soft touch with a file...in any event I find that a sheet of fiber tex and either an Arkansas stone or Gummi/sandpaper are easier for producing a smooth transition from the edge into the aggressive dulling. The main standard I go by is, Can I ride a flat base along a cattrack without the edge grabbing? In spring mush and similar conditions I might run the fiber tex down a little more, this is easy to undo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.