joecarve Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Somebody help me out here: What is the deal with walking across a parking lot, holding the deck by the nose and letting the tail drag on pavement? I see teenagers doing this and I really don't get it. Delams must be in now, or something. joe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCrider Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 must be the same or similar crowd that skis/rides back to there car across snow and mixed gravel in the parking lot. I taught my kids to not do that when they were three. They would ask why those others of all ages did it. I never did have a good answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark Jeangerard Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 You guys just aren't rad enough to understand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 maybe it's to structure the base :D Sort of a poor mans stone grind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by ARCrider must be the same or similar crowd that skis/rides back to there car across snow and mixed gravel in the parking lot. I taught my kids to not do that when they were three. They would ask why those others of all ages did it. I never did have a good answer. This is a LONG RANT, I apologize. I'll try to make it as readable as possible. CAVEAT: Before you even read this, you should realize that I'm trying to describe the opposite extreme end to the park punk kid who treats his gear like crap. Do not think that I'm describing older riders in general. I'm merely trying to show both extremes to help everyone get some perspective by playing Devil's Advocate (heh, if you are one of those people with knee jerking reactions to posts... you can now accuse me of being in leagues with Satan ). REFORMED Park Monkey Hey we used to ride to on the snow back to the car! :D Usually the parking lots were asphalt so there wasn't any gravel on top of the snow. But even then, we figured a little base damage doesn't hurt too much - else when would we jib/bonk rocks and/or ride up the stairwells of slopeside condos. Actually one time we saw a guy hop a fence and land in a pile of snow that ran down to a concrete floor... and a hot tub full of girls. Now I would have probably just taken off my board, but you can't say that wasn't a nice entrance. PAMPERING YOUR BOARDS Anyway, back to keeping your board in pristine conditions. I agree blatant disregard for the maintenance of your board is not ideal. I definitely don't approve of dragging the tip your board on the ground (even in the snow). It's poor form. However, the snow is meant to have fun, it can stand a little punishment. It's kind of like buying a car (sports/SUV) and then being all psychotic about making sure it doesn't get too dirty, avoiding dents/scratches, washing/waxing it constantly, avoiding big puddles of salty water... sure that will extend the lifetime/value of the car... you just have to balance that with having a little fun and relaxing a bit. MATURE FREESTYLER ETIQUETTE... OXYMORON? I still ride rails, bonk rocks, do silly things like ride up the wooden stairs to outdoor lunch area and then attempt to ollie onto the bench with my board (with a pair of spotters of course). Now I have a dedicated board to do it (extra durable base), but back in the day I would have done it with my only board if it wasn't "brand new." BTW, I don't like poseur punk kids either, unlike their pro counterparts, they rarely have any ability... and most important, they do NOT know basic park/pipe etiquette. For instance they do not respect traditional queueing protocol, like calling "DROP" or "DROP NEXT" to inform that you are the next person down the run and cut you off. They try to do things completely out of their ability level and get in your way (went you are going 2 mph, what in the WORLD makes you think you'll be able to clear that 30 foot rainbow rail?!?), They do unsafe things like take a jump without letting the previous rider get clear of the jump. THEN they slide slip down the landing of the jump, which just messes it up over time. You DON'T skid/top on approaches/landings of jumps, you carve and then maybe speed check BEFORE you get to the jump and then ride out and THEN adjust your speed. But most people just don't have enough confidance to ride off the landing with a little bit of speed and slam on the brakes the MOMENT they land. GAHHH! I hate those people.... ahem... where was I? oh yes... OPPOSITE EXTREME It sounds like people here talk about their boards like collectors items or investments, but I like to think of the board as a tool for fun. Yes, I don't think you should intentionally try to damage your board, especially if you paid $500+ for it, however... if it's an older, well used board... why not have a little fun with it? What good is having 5-6 boards (for snowboarding) all you do is like hang them in your garage like museum pieces and only take them out like vintage cars to a collectors show (treating them very carefully with gloved hands). I mean a scratch on your topsheet sucks, but if it's not deep and doesn't threaten the structural integrity of the board, is it that board? Same thing with a little base damage... a scratch here... scratch there... they are annoying and to be avoided, but it's not the end of the world for the regular carver... since many (most?) don't race (Randy S is excluded) and there are not going to notice losing a tenth (heck even half a second) on their run. PERSPECTIVE I mean if you have five boards and ride thirty days (which is more than most I believe - I could be wrong). Then at most you are riding your least ridden board six days... that's not very much for a several hundred dollar board. Even worse you probably have a main board and then only ride a few boards for two to three days a season. That's hundreds of dollars (even if you buy cheap and used online) for a day or two of snowboarding. Hence you are in danger of being called a "gear geek" who is a person who throws money at a technique problem. Please don't feel the need to post a defensive post about how "you" get a hundred days and carve like mad and therefore use all of the boards a lot. I'm sure there are lots of people like that, just not the majority. You "extreme carvers" are the image that regular people want to aspire to... and pose as... just like those poseur skater punk kids want to pretend they are a pro freestyler. Now I'm sure most people don't pamper boards that they rarely ride, just in the same what that even many teenagers do not treat their boards like crap. Everyone lies somewhere in between the skater punk kid and the "vintage car" board collector. I know that since I'm relatively young, I am definitely much closer to the skater punk kid... and I think some people will have to admit that they might be a bit closer to the board collector with their large "quivers" of boards. HYBRID You could even say I'm doing the worst (or best depending on how you look at it) of both worlds. I still like riding the park and pipe. I like hitting rails - but don't jib/bonk because I really suck at it (my friend can tap both his nose and his tail while spinning) I've added an alpine board so I now actually have THREE boards now (freestyle, freeride, alpine). I MIGHT even add a powder board, but I also might drop the freestyle as the freeride is pretty decent at freestyle, while the freestyle board sucks outside the park. I'm just out to have fun (which is somewhat unrelated to my skill level, or lack thereof). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 One way to be sure that you (as a park monkey) are noticed and admired by the other patrons of the ski area you frequent, is to forget to lock down your racks when you leave at the end of the day. A friend of mine related a story about this. He was up skiing with his 6 year old daughter last year and was back at the car getting ready to leave. A short way down the parking lot a driver started honking his horn. He (my friend) looked up in time to see a car starting to haul ass out of the ski area. Several young snowboard-type park monkeys were in the car, music blaring VERY loud and each of them hanging out the car window flipping everyone in the parking lot the finger. As the car rounded the corner, all of the boards on top of the car came crashing down onto the pavement. The young driver and his friends (not hearing this because of the loud music) continued on down the road not realizing what had just happened . Several people in the parking lot got used snowboards that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 One way to be sure that you (as a park monkey) are noticed and admired by the other patrons of the ski area you frequent, is to forget to lock down your racks when you leave at the end of the day. A friend of mine related a story about this. He was up skiing with his 6 year old daughter last year and was back at the car getting ready to leave. A short way down the parking lot a driver started honking his horn. He (my friend) looked up in time to see a car starting to haul ass out of the ski area. Several young snowboard-type park monkeys were in the car, music blaring VERY loud and each of them hanging out the car window flipping everyone in the parking lot the finger. As the car rounded the corner, all of the boards on top of the car came crashing down onto the pavement. The young driver and his friends (not hearing this because of the loud music) continued on down the road not realizing what had just happened . Several people in the parking lot got used snowboards that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Originally posted by lonerider What good is having 5-6 boards (for snowboarding) all you do is like hang them in your garage like museum pieces and only take them out like vintage cars to a collectors show (treating them very carefully with gloved hands). A friend of mine has about fifty boards, a lot of them are pretty rare. If someone thinks of snowboards as art, then it makes sense for them to keep them perfect, maybe even not riding them. I don't have any problem with that, I think it's pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Originally posted by Steve Dold A friend of mine has about fifty boards, a lot of them are pretty rare. If someone thinks of snowboards as art, then it makes sense for them to keep them perfect, maybe even not riding them. I don't have any problem with that, I think it's pretty cool. That's slightly different situation to what I'm referring to. I know someone who collect skateboard decks and has hundreds, but they are specifically to collect. I'm talking about someone who has like ten snowboards, each for a particular type of riding (bumps, powder, freestyle, freeride, carving) but doesn't have the skill and riding time to back it up. Does that make sense? I mean there are definitely lots of riders who for instance race competitively and therefor have a couple of setups for various events and conditions. I'm referring to the prtdon that has several thousands of dollars of snowboard gear *for* riding (not for collection) that he is very proud of... but only goes up once every few weekend. Again as I said before, this is not the norm, I'm just giving you what I see as an opposite extreme to the park monkey kid. I see on this board a lot of anti-freestyle posts and it seems a little unbalanced in the viewpoint and using the extreme cases to generalize to the entire group (i.e. stereotyping). My point is that its really the attitude that matters and not the style (park vs carving). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 other ways to recognize your typical park monkey... 24" duck-footed stances (I thought these went away with lunch-tray boards snowpants with the crotch at knee level biker wallets with chains at shin level (remember the crotch is at knee level. speaking about snowboarding in a language that you a fellow snowboarder would better understand if it were japanese (insert your completely un-understandable language) board covered in stickers board hasn't been tuned since date of purchase can often be heard complaining of too much snow (always happens on powder days can be seen attempting presses while on the way to the park camber??????? Btw These aren't sterotypes as far as I have seen over the last week at two seperate resorts...I rode lifts over the halfpipes and the terrain parks for a week now and this is all from memory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Before I start, this might or might not be obvious, but I want to say I'm half serious, half joking, and half playing Devil's Advocate... and that adds up to a lot of nothing Plus I don't intend to take on the entire hardboot world hear, I just wanted to make a point and then fade away (perhaps in infamy). Originally posted by Gecko Btw These aren't sterotypes as far as I have seen over the last week at two seperate resorts...I rode lifts over the halfpipes and the terrain parks for a week now and this is all from memory A stereotype doesn't have to be negative or even not true for a subset of the group. It is simply an overgeneralization or oversimplification of a group to a set of traits, such that all members of a group are assumed to possess that feature. This means you *are* stereotyping... you saw a few memebers with common features and then extended it to the whole group. That's what stereotyping is. That is why stereotyping sounds so innocuous (but causes so many issues in race relations), because it based on some observation of a subset of the group and some people think there is a "seed of truth" because the few people in the group that they know of fit that image - but that is incorrect. On top of that, obviously you must possess a keen sense of hearing and eyesight to be able to continually listen in on conversations and eye-spot stance measurements to within an inch and able to judge if a board has been tuned or not. Also you must have telepathy to read freestyler's minds to know whether or know they know what camber means. Spending a good deal of my time in the park and pipe. I can easily say you are wrong (I will go through the list in a moment). That was the point of my previous post... You are taking the worse examples of a group and trying to apply that to the entire group. All those funny stares you get on the mountain, all those dumb questions about your "skiboots" and your skinny board (since hardbooters are the minority)... you are doing the exactly same thing. I don't see that as a good thing. For every "park monkey stereotype" I can give a stereotype about a hardbooter. I would be *wrong* just like you because not everyone in the hardbooter group matches that description. Well let's go through the list. Note the "reverse stereotypes" are tongue-in-cheek and meant to display the hypocrisy of stereotyping freestylers. If you can't take a joke don't read on. Or simplified, you better be willing to take what you dish out! :D other ways to recognize your typical park monkey... Ways to recognize a hardboot gear geek. 24" duck-footed stances (I thought these went away with lunch-tray boards 1. Duck footed or neutral stance are common as freestylers often like to ride switch. Wider (20-21") stances are needed to absorbed the force of landing a jump. Reverse stereotype #1 - Didn't 16" 75/70 degree stances die with the asymmetrical board? Why is you snowboard broken on the back end? snowpants with the crotch at knee level 2. Most park riders do not ride with their pants at crouch level, the simple reason being if they fell, their would get ripped to shreds if they ever fell and slip on their rear end down the rough, frozen landings. Reverse stereotype #2 - Nice racing tights... very manly. The single-piece suits are tres sexy as well. biker wallets with chains at shin level (remember the crotch is at knee level. 3. Again, biker wallets are "trendy" and a few wear them, but most people don't. Reverse stereotype #3: Nice platinum card... must have a high limit to cover all that gear. speaking about snowboarding in a language that you a fellow snowboarder would better understand if it were japanese (insert your completely un-understandable language) 4. True, the terminology is a little tough, but that happens in everything. It's not like hardbooters are any better. "Quiver?" "Angulation?" "Inclination?" Ask a random person on the chairlift about one of these terms and see if they know what you are talking about. Reverse stereotype #4: What's in my quiver? Why are you talking about archery in the snow? board covered in stickers 5. Some people like to decorate their boards. Many don't bother. Reverse stereotype #5: No stomp pad added because that would mar the pristine beauty of the translucent topsheet. The board is so beautiful, you hang it on a wall. board hasn't been tuned since date of purchase 6. They get tuned, just not very often (like one or twice a year). Waxing (for speed on the jump) and edge deburring (getting rid of dings from rails) are the most common. Reverse stereotype #6: Board tuned obsessively - edges sharpedn, based waxed and structured often... all for that extra .1% of performance. can often be heard complaining of too much snow (always happens on powder days 7. Hehe, ok that can be true... since park and pipe are terrible in heavy powder. Reverse stereotype #7: Can be heard wishing for "hero" snow so they look good. can be seen attempting presses while on the way to the park 8. Again, only true for some people. *Although* I admit I have definitely done that a few times. Reverse stereotype #8: Can be seen attemping a 360 turn at the bottom of a trail. camber??????? 9. Camber is actually very important for park riding as it affects the springiness and snap of a board. I was taught about camber the first year I was snowboarding, in particular that is was important to look for when buying a [freestyle] board. Reverse stereotype #9: Swing weight???? Spins??? I hope everyone reading this a) actually read it to the end before replying and therefore b) gets the general point that I'm trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Hey lonerider, you're sounding pretty defensive there about your fellow freestylers! But your general point is a good one. I'll add my experience of the park monkeys at my local mountain. Fodder for new stereotypes :) There are two types. The first type spend most of their time in the pipe, and tend to have beautifully maintained boards and be fairly serious dudes in general. They're as "performance oriented" as any hard booter. Although I ride in a totally different style, I feel a certain affinity with them (I don't know if it's reciprocated). The second type are flailing beginners who think its cool to dare each other to do a rail slide. They all manage to fall on the rail and then pretend it doesn't hurt while their friends are laughing at them. They all have rental gear. I feel no affinity with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 OK too serious and it was still meant as a joke...I figure I watched a few thousand park monkeys between carving runs...hell I even made a few runs through the park just to hit the impecable jumps...Maybe it's just the Japan Thing where Image often is the Stereotype (I bet you've never seen a grown man in his forties carrying a Pink Hello Kitty backpack with pride) . As for the wide stance thing I have skated halfpipe and pools for years I run the same stance width on my skateboard as I do on my snowboard just a more forward angulation, I don't buy the idea that a 5'2" guy needs a 24" stance, the duckfooted thing I understand my knees just can't do it... FYI I have been snowboarding since 83-84 I built snowboards for a few years and I have never seen so many boards with what basicly amounts to negative camber in the park/pipe boards that are sold these days. I know I know that they are as purpose built as our carving boards I just see more noodle boards on the hill these days than functional ones...I have seen trends come and go thankfully lunchtrays and snowjeans are gone but the jibbers still annoy me, too much street skateboarding has made it's way onto the mountain...hell even the video/DVD's/magazines are full of it...gone are the shots of deep powder turns most of what you see are shots of stairs just like skateboard magazines... OK RANT over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Tokar Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 I'm a fun-hog, you're a fun-hog, wouldn't you like to be a fun-hog, too? Older carvers, park-monkeys, skiers and golfers all like to have fun. It's human nature after the Maslow hierarchy of needs is satisfied, even though some of us would give up food and shelter to have more fun. All the "I'm a uniter" crap aside, let's examine evolution: Most of the older riders here probably started on a snurfer (or an older Burton) and used to skateboard in half-pipes and do silly things. Then they got older, got more bruises, more money, acquired more toys and techniques and kept having fun, but a little differently because they also had more responsibility and more at stake to lose. They/we ended up with a 'quiver' of boards that are like museum pieces acquired over years of riding, proudly displayed like war-time memorabilia. Most were bought because they were great boards and great deals, but then there came a new favorite after a season or two, and if the older boards were well maintained, it would be silly to think about getting rid of them. You don't throw away an old friend, and may even take it for a ride from time to time. So begins the tuning obsessive, museum collection stereotype of the older carver, wincing when he sees an unthinking kid abuse a board on (and a body) on rails, steps and pavement. Like the commercial says, "Silly Rabbit, Tricks are for kids". Someday, the kids will grow up and out of the park, and maybe more onto carving gear. It'll be interesting to see what the next 20-30 years bring to having fun on snow. Who knows, maybe the next generation will think it's stupid to have a competition with arbitrary scoring about the sickest nose press rail slide McFlipmeoff and may just want to see who the fastest person is. (Besides, I practically broke my A$$ a few weeks ago when I took a jump with too much speed and landed on a rail that some kook put in the middle of a perfectly good ski slope.) A grumpy old fun-hog, MT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jagger Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Originally posted by Gecko other ways to recognize your typical park monkey... biker wallets with chains at shin level (remember the crotch is at knee level. That's Pretty good, I used to ride with a guy about 10 tears ago that started wearing a chain wallet. I wouldn,t exactly call him a park monkey since he was one of the best racers/carvers in his age group as well as a pretty good slopestyle/freestyle rider. But one night we were out laying down some carves and one trip up the lift we go to get off and as we pull away from the un loading area he starts going backwards next thing I know he's hanging about 4 feet of the ground just past th emergency shut off for the lift. It took me and the lift operator a couple of trys but were finaly able to lift him high enough that he could free the chain from the chair. Needless to say he stopped wearing the chain wallet after that.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark Jeangerard Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Originally posted by lonerider A stereotype doesn't have to be negative or even not true for a subset of the group. It is simply an overgeneralization or oversimplification of a group to a set of traits, such that all members of a group are assumed to possess that feature. This means you *are* stereotyping... you saw a few memebers with common features and then extended it to the whole group. That's what stereotyping is. That is why stereotyping sounds so innocuous (but causes so many issues in race relations), because it based on some observation of a subset of the group and some people think there is a "seed of truth" because the few people in the group that they know of fit that image - but that is incorrect. I think people get far too hung up on the whole stereotyping issue. If enough people of a certain race or practice are similar in enough ways it is a stereotype and that *can* be applied to the group as a whole. The trick is to be sharp enough to know it doesn't apply all the time. The other trick is to not be offended when someone else figures you out. As I am not offened by your dead on portrayal of me and my kind. Some days more, some less, but yeah... I write poetry on the top sheets of my carvers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Originally posted by Mike Tokar Like the commercial says, "Silly Rabbit, Tricks are for kids". Someday, the kids will grow up and out of the park, and maybe more onto carving gear. It'll be interesting to see what the next 20-30 years bring to having fun on snow. Who knows, maybe the next generation will think it's stupid to have a competition with arbitrary scoring about the sickest nose press rail slide McFlipmeoff and may just want to see who the fastest person is. NOOO, don't let that happen. Don't let snowboarding turn into what skiing was before snowboards. I see the anti-freestyle mentality here as close-minded. And maybe some jealousy - older guys on carving gear watching a teen huck a rodeo flip 8 ft up. You know you won't ever do that. Where as that park monkey that landed the rodeo flip could be an excellent carver in one season. I remember when the ski patrol would knock down moguls, if too many people started using it for a jump. Thanks to those park monkeys, there are perfectly groomed jumps and steep safe landings at many ski resorts. Snowboard parks make many smaller ski resorts fun for the entire day - not just when the snow is good. I wish those snowboard parks were around when I first started snowboarding, 18 years ago. I'm 39 and I carve in the morning on a Donek and hardboots, then hang out in snowboard park in the afternoon on my untuned freestyle board and softboots. No tats, piercings or wallet chains for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Baka wrote: Hey lonerider, you're sounding pretty defensive there about your fellow freestylers! Yes, I am playing Devil's Advocate. Which before the movie came out, is a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular view. The reason I'm doing this is because the debate here seems to be a one sided bashing of freestylers and I never like joining in with the main group as a groupie. I just was bored on a Saturday and decided to argue the opposing view just to make people think about their viewpoints and defend them a little. Like people exaggerate and make caricatures without really trying to understand or explain their observation. Like behind Gecko's comments are a lot of interesting observations... but his list simplifies and hides all the important observations. Anyways, it seems like people on these forums like to argue and debate... so I thought I'd jump in on a topic for once (seriously hoping I'm not annoying TOO many people... only a few :D) But your general point is a good one. I'll add my experience of the park monkeys at my local mountain. Fodder for new stereotypesThere are two types. The first type spend most of their time in the pipe, and tend to have beautifully maintained boards and be fairly serious dudes in general. They're as "performance oriented" as any hard booter. Although I ride in a totally different style, I feel a certain affinity with them (I don't know if it's reciprocated). The second type are flailing beginners who think its cool to dare each other to do a rail slide. They all manage to fall on the rail and then pretend it doesn't hurt while their friends are laughing at them. They all have rental gear. I feel no affinity with them. In reality, I myself and my friends often different from most of my fellow freestylers and many of the things they do I do disagree with. However, it's a free country and for the most part I ignore them, unless they affect me directly such as people who don't understand terrain park and halfpipe etiquette rules (as I mentioned before). Gecko wrote OK too serious and it was still meant as a joke...I figure I watched a few thousand park monkeys between carving runs...hell I even made a few runs through the park just to hit the impecable So you've "seen" them from a few hundred feet away and actually were in a few feet of them for a few minutes? Compare that to actually being one, I'm sure you've had plenty experience as a skateboarder and snowboarding... but I mean you are talking to someone who *is* a park person for the last 8 years. I feel that my observations have some or more weight since I am actually in the park a lot as opposed watching it from a far and dropping in every once in a blue moon. I don't buy the idea that a 5'2" guy needs a 24" stance Again about the 24" stance (did you read my previous comment about it?). Only time I've definitely noticed a 24" stance on someone shorter that 5'8" was on April Fool's day and obviously that was a joke. I ride a 20-21" stance and usually I have a pretty wide stance. Park riders will not ride a stance that is too wide because you won't be able to absorb the impact of a landing with you knees (in the same way that a 16" stance is hard to land jumps with). I agree that a 24" stance on a 5'2" rider would be silly and stupid, however my point is that few people have that kind of superwide stance. Do you really think that most park rider have a 24" stance (have you seen it on every rider in the park?) or are you taking an extreme case and applying it to the entire group in order to make the group look more foreign? FYI I have been snowboarding since 83-84 I built snowboards for a few years and I have never seen so many boards with what basicly amounts to negative camber in the park/pipe boards that are sold these days. That's good to here, I have no doubt that you are experienced as a snowboarder. So what types of boards did you make? Which boards have negative camber? I'm interested in learning from your observations. I've looked at the Burton Dragon, the Salomon Pact, and the Neversummer Evo all have a lot of camber, since you need the snappiness that camber gives you for the pipe. Now I don't particularly like reading transworldsnowboard since it tends to have very little useful content, and even like the board review less however... contrary to what you claim, freestyle obviously understand camber TWSnow wrote: This board's got more camber than the St. Louis Arch, which makes for a responsive ride. I know I know that they are as purpose built as our carving boards I just see more noodle boards on the hill these days than functional ones...I have seen trends come and go thankfully lunchtrays and snowjeans are gone but the jibbers still annoy me, too much street skateboarding has made it's way onto the mountain...hell even the video/DVD's/magazines are full of it...gone are the shots of deep powder turns most of what you see are shots of stairs just like skateboard magazines... I don't mind that jibbing board exist (well not much, I do shudder at the Burton Dominant's description of "recessed edges" for jibbing). I happen to dislike jibbing specific boards as well because most people because beginner don't realize that these boards are non-functional snowboards and only good for jibbing. I have no problem with someone buying a jibbing board for jibbing. Just that they should know what they are buying... are you mad at park people, or are you mad because they are more popular and therefore set incorrect trends for normal snowboarders. On the flip side, there could be a person trying to ride a ultrawide, swallowtail powder board on groomers... would that be much better. I also agree that skateboarding influence has had a resurgence in the past few years. And that videos rarely have freeriding or carving shots. I remember a guy on rec.skiing.snowboard posted a video that supposedly talk about freestyle, freeride, and all-mountain riding... for freeriding he used clips of people jibbing on cattracks and for all-mountain he had clips of people hitting kickers built in the backcountry. But who are we to judge what is "true/pure" snowboarding is. I bet skiiers thought the same thing about you on your "snufer" back in 83-84 on how you were corrupting "skiing." So you can see it's not like I wholly disagree with everything you are seeing/observing... just the conclusions that you draw from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Originally posted by Mike Tokar Besides, I practically broke my A$$ a few weeks ago when I took a jump with too much speed and landed on a rail that some kook put in the middle of a perfectly good ski slope.) MT Hey Mike was the rail like 3 feet off the back of the jump... or was it like 30ft past the landing and runoff of the jump. Sounds like the latter. Was the rail really oddly placed, or did you just not know it was there because you took the jump "blind" that is to say you didn't check out or "scope out" the jump and landing prior to taking the jump? Rails are going to exist in the "terrain park" which is not a regular ski slope. You would have been just as screwed if they was a second jump there, or worse, a person there because you have too much speed, were out of control, and took the jump blind. It happens to everyone, although I have to admit that it is most common in irresponsible, immature teenage park riders. Mark wrote: I think people get far too hung up on the whole stereotyping issue. If enough people of a certain race or practice are similar in enough ways it is a stereotype and that *can* be applied to the group as a whole. The trick is to be sharp enough to know it doesn't apply all the time. Well that's the thing... after about while you forget that last little bit. You say "it doesn't apply all the time" but if you keep saying the stereotype unconsciously you begin to automatically think that it does apply all the time. Anyways, I think everyone at least sees what I'm trying to get at when I mean "stereotype" even if they don't agree. That's good enough for me. The other trick is to not be offended when someone else figures you out. As I am not offened by your dead on portrayal of me and my kind. Some days more, some less, but yeah... I write poetry on the top sheets of my carvers. I agree as well that I shouldn't be offended by dead on portrays... hence if you look at my original counter list. I readily admit some of the portrayals are true. For instance. That park riders are unhappy when there is a lot of powder in the park/pipe(at least for park riding). Usually this happens after we spend the entire morning riding powder in the steeps and move to the park in the afternoon after it gets all tracked out. So then we are left with supertracked powder, or a park that's filled with slow, powder. Also, I have often attemped nosepresses on the way to the terrain park. Recently, I've been practiing really tight laid out carves, but I definitely will in the future practice more presses as well. However, at the same time, many of the other things are just not true for a large majority of park/pipe rider in my opinion. None of my friends have +21" stances, we tune our boards every 4-5 days, not only do we not wear our pants at crotch level... some of us even wear BELTS. My point is that there is a difference between seeinga person that is easily identifiable as a "park monkey" and try to say that all park people are like that person. The worrisome point is when you indiscriminantly throw in a few attributes. Anyways, I think the REAL difference is adolescents vs adults. I think gdboytyler has exactly the right idea. gdboytyler wrote: NOOO, don't let that happen. Don't let snowboarding turn into what skiing was before snowboards.I see the anti-freestyle mentality here as close-minded. And maybe some jealousy - older guys on carving gear watching a teen huck a rodeo flip 8 ft up. You know you won't ever do that. Where as that park monkey that landed the rodeo flip could be an excellent carver in one season. I remember when the ski patrol would knock down moguls, if too many people started using it for a jump. Thanks to those park monkeys, there are perfectly groomed jumps and steep safe landings at many ski resorts. Snowboard parks make many smaller ski resorts fun for the entire day - not just when the snow is good. I wish those snowboard parks were around when I first started snowboarding, 18 years ago. I'm 39 and I carve in the morning on a Donek and hardboots, then hang out in snowboard park in the afternoon on my untuned freestyle board and softboots. No tats, piercings or wallet chains for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Tokar Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 In response to lonerider: Good guess! The rail was about 15 feet long, and placed right after the jump, and about 4-5 feet high off the ground at the end. It was in the terrain park, fully marked, and my friend even warned me about it before hand. (I was kidding when I said someone put it in the middle of a perfectly good ski slope) I was all excited to be out having fun, had a 'sudden loss of cabin pressure' and forgot that the rail was there. (No monkeys were hurt during the filming of this memory, only an old guy that aged another year in one fall) I like the discussion, and enjoy reading rants, but some people are taking it way too seriously. It's fun to goof on people, and to goof on yourself, also. I'm going to re-tune all the boards in my museum now, since I'm wasting a Sunday NOT riding, and missing the speed race at Huntah today. Think Snow, MT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Damn lonerider a bit longwinded and defensive...the term "park monkey" is in itself a stereotype...just like Eurocarver describes the hardbooter I worked for Flite Snowboards and built freestyle, all mountain and a small number of raceboards (though by todays standards they are more like carving/all mountain boards). My opinion on boards for what it's worth it that the camber should at least hold the weight of the board off a flat surface... BTW yes I saw more than one (actually more than 20 in like 5 minutes) 24 inch stance on a japanese parkrider, while I may be a bit condecending to say that they were 5'2" they were at least 6-8" shorter than my 6'1" as I said this may have been a japan thing where it is very comon to see walking caricatures No I don't hate parks they keep Jibbers off the rest of the mountain:D something I am very thankful for and I respect what they do I just don't particularly care to do it...what I do dislike is that skateboarding has taken the snow out of snowboarding. just like skateboarding used to be about rolling and is now about rails/stairs snowboarding used to be about snow and now all that gets publicity are rails and stairs (I excluded ramp skating because rampskaters are to skateboarding what hardbooters are to snowboarding) The thing is, at least at the resorts I've seen here in Japan, the typical snowboarder is an all mountain rider and his equipment while for the most part is soft, he/she can carve. This may not be the case stateside and I'm sure it's not the case in Socal and likely a large portion of NorCal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Originally posted by Gecko Damn lonerider a bit longwinded and defensive...the term "park monkey" is in itself a stereotype...just like Eurocarver describes the hardbooter I worked for Flite Snowboards and built freestyle, all mountain and a small number of raceboards (though by todays standards they are more like carving/all mountain boards). My opinion on boards for what it's worth it that the camber should at least hold the weight of the board off a flat surface... BTW yes I saw more than one (actually more than 20 in like 5 minutes) 24 inch stance on a japanese parkrider, while I may be a bit condecending to say that they were 5'2" they were at least 6-8" shorter than my 6'1" as I said this may have been a japan thing where it is very comon to see walking caricatures Heh, the last couple of posts were longer (I pre-apologized for that). However I wanted to adequate reply to everyone who shared their opinion with me. I don't want to be one of those people who make some random comments and then ignore arguments against my viewpoints. As for defensive, I am being defensive because I don't like it when people gang up on someone in absentia where that person or group isn't given a chance to defend themselves. Notice for the most part I use "freestyler" and "park rider" instead of "park monkey" which *is* a stereotype, which is what I already wrote in my previous post. I guess my posts were so long that people's eyes were glazing over by the second paragraph and hence didn't bother to read what I said. That is my fault. Also calling a hardbooter a eurocarver is not the equivalent to calling freestyler a "park monkey,"... more like "trench digger" As I've never snowboarded in Japan, so I will concede that they might be like that there. Japan does seem to be a big fashion/trend creator. I mean from what I just read (again not first hand knowledge) many of the private home toilets have features like heated seats, automatic raising lids, cleaning water sprays, and a air dryer for your rear. I just read an article in the Wall Street Journal (hey I was waiting for my food) about how this company Toto is planning on bringing these toliets to the US. I ride in NoCal and it never gets that bad. Even back on the East Coast where you get a lot of kids from NYC I don't remember being that prevalent. Do you know what brand/models of boards have no camber? As I said before, being a starving student in college... we bought almost all our gear used. Hence we were taught to put the board down on a table and look to see if it still had any camber on it as a sign of the condition of the core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Originally posted by lonerider That is my fault. Also calling a hardbooter a eurocarver is not the equivalent to calling freestyler a "park monkey,"... more like "trench digger" "Trench digger" is a compliment good carvers give themselves..."Eurocarving hardbooter" is a derogitory term leveled by park monkeys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 Sorry, I hit the post button to quick, so I just revised my message a tiny bit. Originally posted by Gecko "Trench digger" is a compliment good carvers give themselves..."Eurocarving hardbooter" is a derogitory term leveled by park monkeys... Really? Ok, I admit then that I'm ignorant. I know that many riders don't see eurocarving as proper technique, but doesn't understand why else it is negative... could you tell me why you see that as derogatory? I seriously have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin A. Posted January 26, 2004 Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 I think that some of us may take that term in a derogitory way because of the condecending tone in which it is most often delivered. Ok, now that I'e used up my smart vocabulary allotment for the night, I'd just like to say that I like the way that this tread is going. I remember on the old forum that we would all of a sudden have everyone start flaming and going mad with rage and then Fin butting in and closing the thread, but I think that since we've actually had to register It hink we may have gotten a bit more mature. Lonerider & Softboot company : You make some very good points, but its unfortunate for me to say that you (from my experience) are the minority in the park mon....people world. Most of the parkers that I know are the ones that we all come to dislike...sitting on their boxers in the middle of the trail waiting for their stoned friend to finish building the jump that will land them in a blind spot on the trail. Everyone: Why do we care so much? What difference does it make what kind of gear we ride? In my opinion, its not the gear that you're riding, its the organ in your head that matters. I know many a soft boot rider that I could pass off as human at a formal function, but I also know a few hardbooters that I probally wouldnt be able to, and I regret having to donate one of them to the zoo :( . All jokes aside, Im sure that there are people that ruin the fun on both sides. Granted, in many cases people's steriotypes are justified by prior experience, there are many people that just make steriotypes to be predijuste(whatever...its 10:00, Im usually in bed by 9:00). I know that Ive formed my opinons of softbooters out of my prior experiences. I know that Ive formed many opinions out of experiences that I haven't had, which was wrong of me. The thing is, there will always be the rude few that ruin the fun for everyone. Look at September 11th, 2001. A bunch of arabic extremists flew planes into buildings, giving an entire race of people a hard time. Our first response: "ARABS ARE BAD!!!!" its natural human instinct to profile people, its one of our defense mechanisms. I get taken out by an out of control softbooting parkmonkey, my first response: "PARKMONKEYS SUCK!!!|. Its natural to assume things like this. Another one of my trained responses is to be wary of women skiing in purple jackets or purple one pieces, they ALWAYS (from my experience mind you) do something stupid: Cut someone off, fall for no apparent reason, take a <><> when they know damn well they cant handle a [ ]...ITS MY EXPERIENCE, and you can't hold that against me. Sorry aboutn the length, I just felt I should get in on this. -Justin PS: Lonerider, you said you're a starving college student, are you going ot be a lawyer? You seem to have the good lawyer mentality where you can look at both sides then counter a good point with another good point. You're being very good about not getting excited, which is more than I can say for some people on the old forum. ________ Ketamine rehab advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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