Shoulder alignment question

[philw]

[...]When riding in a natrual position (body in line with you binding angles) you use your hips more to drive the board and create the board edge angle instead of the knees.[...]

I think it might be better to avoid using terms like "natural" here; sounds a bit loaded to me. One could argue that it's "natural" to look where you're going; it's certainly unnatural to snowboard.;) "Neutral" might be better.

It's all interesting stuff, but I'm wary that some of this sounds a bit dogmatic. There are many styles, and as someone above says, it's a matter of opinion which works best for an "expert" individual. For sure someone riding at 45 degrees parallel will need a different stance from those of us at 60 parallel.

I don't really think about where I'm facing, other than it's vaguely in the direction of the pointy end of the board. The pictures I have would suggest I'm somewhere between 60 & 90 degrees, but I expect it varies a little depending on precisely what is

happening with the edge. I suppose I'd consider that more of an effect than a cause. I'll think about it next time I'm out.

Maths-wise, there's some basic stuff in the files here from JM and Iain D. But I think you'd find the equations for such a complex dynamic system rather difficult to write down; interpreting them would be even more difficult. Better to get out and ride...:D

[Phil]

Yes, each individual has a different Range of Motion, but the ways we can capitalize on our Range of Motion remains the same. Read the post above and actually try what was said and maybe it will make sense. Most movements that you make in one part of your body affect other parts of your body. (again, explained above) As stated before - you can make things happen, even with poor alignment, but that does not mean that it is the most efficient way. As far as Eurocarving, that is another tactic or style. We can all ride however we want. We will also probably have fun riding however we want. That does not mean that we are riding in a way that is efficient.

Look at the original questions posted in this thread. That is what we have been dealing with. It looks like ncermak was looking for maximum efficiency, and that has continued to be ignored by the neutral stance nay-sayers.

[Jack M]

I'd like to be on the record as NOT a neutral-stance-nay-sayer. My mission here at BOL is to get more people into freecarving, and more people freecarving better. I've found in my experience that when helping someone who is facing their toe edge or facing downhill on heelside, and who is bending over at the waist towards the snow on toeside - the face the nose technique is more effective to break these habits. For me and plenty of people I know, facing the nose continues to work well for them. Others need to return to a more "neutral" stance in order to progress.

I'm not a racer, but I realize that there is less room for this attitude on the race course. However if you tell me that <i>everyone</i> on the world cup is or should be using the same exact technique, well, I would find that hard to believe.

Facing the nose or facing the bindings is not the only issue we could debate. We could also talk about whether it is better to keep a more upright torso or not. Personally I try to ride with a more upright torso (key word: try) and I think it works for me, but I'm certainly not going to tell someone like CMC or Vin to straighten up, because they are obviously at the top of their game. So for freecarving and having fun, personal preference is a valid argument.

[ncermak]

Originally posted by bola

The human range of motion is quite different form one individual to another. What one person considers limiting mobility may not apply to another who is more flexible or a yoga guru.

You are confusing range of motion with flexibilty. They are related however to maximize the potential range of motion you should start in a neutral position. Then you have maximimum ROM, in this case to rotate the hips) to the limits of your flexibilty. If you start rotated, your ROM has been limited in that direction (toward heelside). In simpler terms. Lets say that you can rotate your hips 100% of ROM toward heelside, from neutaral. If you ridr rotated 25%, then you only 75% of the ROM left. This is regardless of flexibilty.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Kent

Perhaps we can agree (or disagree) to use this model for discussion....

1) Balance

2) Edging

3) Pressure

4) Rotary (Steering)

How does steering factor into a carved turn? I don't think it does, but if you can convince me otherwise...

it's usually the best means to "trick" the rider into doing something totally different.

absolutely. By telling a newbie to try to exaggerate an alignment, often they end up breaking old habits and landing somewhere in the middle. I actually ride I think somewhere between face the nose and face the bindings, but I tell people who are trying to carve with a softboot style to face the nose, and they usually end up in a good place.

-Jack

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Kent

Um...several ways. There are many types of rotary (steering) in a turn. Don't think of rotary as simply shoulder movements. Your knees, your feet, your hips, your head, etc....all provide some form of rotary.

Simply put, you must have rotary (whereever it comes from) to turn a snowboard.....along with balance, edging and pressure.

What about the "norm" exercise? You can turn a snowboard by purely leaning on the sidecut. Maybe I'm not thinking of the right thing, when I think of "steering" I think of actively rotating the board with your feet. That is, turning the board relative to your body. When I'm carving I think I'm maintaining a mostly constant relationship to the board. No?

Damn I need to ride.

[ncermak]

Jack...

I agree we all need to get out of the office, and onto snows. clearly we all hate our jobs.

now...when you get out and ride. try steering with your knees. see what it does for your board. It is a rotary action of the front kne - open your stance from the knee on the heelside turn, then close the stace from the knee on the toeside.

an intersting exercise

-Noah

[Guest Matt D]

Jack... Try to think about steering a snowboard like steering a car. If you steer very little, you make big turns. If you steer a lot, you make smaller turns.

The majority of steering in a carved turn is done with the knees and feet/ankles. You drive your knees towards the snow, which creates more edge angle, which makes your turn radius smaller.

Kent... In the Canadian system we have 5 skills

1. Stance & Balance

2. Pivot/Steering

3. Edging

4. Pressure Control

5. Timing & Coordination

I listed them in order or Importance. Stance & Balance is the most important, and without good S&B you cannot truly benefit from the other skills. Pivot/Steering is an interesting one, because in the beginning phases of teaching snowboarding we use pivot to turn the snowboard, but as students approach an intermediat level, we phase out pivot, and add steering. Edging is an easy one to figure out ;) Pressure Control & T/C are what we call expert skills, because the refinement of those skills will make you an expert snowboarder. I just wanted to share some canadian content

[Jack M]

Originally posted by ncermak

Jack...

I agree we all need to get out of the office, and onto snows. clearly we all hate our jobs.

Heh, well I actually like my job, but I haven't even mounted my board yet. I mean ridden my board. I mean... mounted my bindings onto my board yet. Get your mind out of the gutter!!

now...when you get out and ride. try steering with your knees. see what it does for your board. It is a rotary action of the front kne - open your stance from the knee on the heelside turn, then close the stace from the knee on the toeside.

an intersting exercise

-Noah

Yeah, I do that on heelside. I guess it can be called steering. Although I believe that keeping your knees apart on toeside is more stable. But that's a whole nother story. <i>(is "nother" even a word?)</i>

-Jack

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Matt D

The majority of steering in a carved turn is done with the knees and feet/ankles. You drive your knees towards the snow, which creates more edge angle, which makes your turn radius smaller.

See I would have called that "edging". But I was never psia certified. To me steering connotes doing something to rotate the board out of the track it would naturally carve on its own. A dead weight could carve a snowboard if you could balance it right, and a dead weight is incapable of steering.

-Jack

[willywhit]

I prefer to flap my arms and make airplane noises, but you know...whatever works for you.I used to be a renegade, I used to fool around

But I couldn't take the punishment, and had to settle down

Now I'm playing it real straight, and yes I cut my hair

You might think I'm crazy, but I don't even care

Because I can tell what's going on

It's hip to be square

[ncermak]

Jack-

Note...I didn't say it was the best tecnique. but something that can sometimes be incortperated in some situations. also, you can steer with both knees, maintaining seperation.

and what is this job yopu love? even a bad day of boarding beats the best day here!

-Noah

[Guest Matt D]

Willy, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but its obvious to me that he is prepairing for his next turn. Its something called anticipation. You start to move your upperbody in the direction of the next turn, while you are in the completion phase of the current turn, and that is the moment in time that was captured in that picture.

[Guest deanj]

...Which is why Kent is so fond of sitll photos when talking about technique... Right Kent? :D

I'm sure there are moments in time I look really good.... :)

-Dean

[willywhit]

Sorry Matt. You're right, he's in the completion phase entering the transition phase preparing for the heelside turn phase.

[Guest Matt D]

Willy, you meant heelside turn right :D... of course you did!

Yeah, thats a good pic. You can see his shoulder, hips, and ankles are all alligned.

[Guest Mark Jeangerard]

I'm really enjoying this discussion as it supports a lot of things I've been thinking lately. I am going to repeat a few things that have been said in an effort to glean what I think may be some important points that have been hinted at but missing from the thread.

Ride, ride, ride - experiement, experiment, experiment.

When I'm out goofing off I always seem to relate everthing to the AeyAeyEssEye reference allignments:

1. Shoulders, hips, and knees perpendicular to the front foot.

2. Shoulders parallel to the hill.

3. CM over the affected edge.

That is not to say that I try to maintain them at all times, but rather, that I compare what it is I am doing to them. So if I am doing a full blown toeside lightbulb changer my shoulders are certainly not at 2, probably not at 1, and 3 is long forgotten. But, I can make the comparison and that gives me a point of reference that I know, from experience, is fairly well ballanced.

I suggest that we try as many styles as possible but only after revisiting the basic carve with an emphasis on skeletal stacking geared towards an efficient center of mass over the affected edge. (Is it 'effected'? Never could get that right.)

Kent mentioned the most important exercise here - Carve from the snow up.

Let the board glide through it's trench with maximum ease. Where do you need to put your body to allow the edge the most freedom? Using your ankles will certainly help. And using the reference alignment mentioned above will certainly help allow the ankles to do that.

I would suggest going out and riding in the reference allignment with legs in the middle of their range of motion, ankles flexed, and roll from edge to edge, dropping the knees then hips through slightly large, slightly fast, not very inclinated turns, allowing the upperbody to simply follow. While inclinating try to keep the shoulders level with the hill. With more inclination there will be more bending sideways at the waist.

Once the board is gliding freely, when you feel all resistance and skiding go away, then try different amounts of inclination. Keep that "tray of drinks" in front of you for good visual representation of shoulder allignment. The back arm will of course be back further, how much depending on stance, but should be visible for most carvers.

The main idea is to find the sweet spot where the body "falls into place" above that edge. All of your joints bending freely, without torsion. You are not fighting for ballance, not pushing or pulling, not leaning so much, not falling.... simply following the edge. Stay loose and submissive. Feel the board working it's magic and how you can position your body with it to allow the cleanest edge and least amount of muscular resistance.

Slowly start adding dynamics back in. Feed the dollar, crank the high shoulder uphill, squeeze the roll of socks....

Now go back and do the big brave crossover turns, hucking your self straight down the fall line. Try those super low, flexy, fighter pilot crossunder turns. Try all the riding styles you've ever seen and concentrate on the edge first and let everything else work it's way up. Then put your muscles back into the equation. Then ride with force and determination... authority.

See if the ballance is a little better now. See if the edge glides more evenly, more in it's own character.

Last but not least - go to the expression sessions. Nothing beats seeing these guys ride. Holy smokes! Up until my first SES, I was riding OK in a couple of styles. After 1 day there, carving opened up to me in ways I never could have imagined. Since attending SES, I now understand a lot more of what's being said in this forum.

One day I followed Kent Smith, trying to emulate his style and ballance. I improved 200% in 2 minutes flat. I can't say enough.

[Phil]

Great post - well thought out. Thanks.

[kjl]

Originally posted by Phil

Now that response was well thought out. Next time you are out riding, do your heelside turn as you normally would. Sitting on the toilet is a good start. During that turn, experiment with your ankle movement. Close your ankle joint so that you can feel your toes against the tops of your boots. You will also feel a strain on the muscles of your anterior compartment of each leg. (the muscles around your shins) Vary the pressure to experiment with the effect on the board. Most likely you will find that this helps achieve a higher edge angle. Have fun!

I will give that a shot next time I ride, but I am a little skeptical that I will be able to close my ankle in the hard shell with the pathetic string of a muscle on the front of my shins. People I meet on the lift often ask me if I am wearing ski boots, and I say, "Close, but the heel is shorter, and the ankle isn't as stiff. See?" And then I proceed to try to flex the boot with my ankle but fail miserably, so I end up having to use my hands :)

I will try that, as well as maybe not bending my knees so much (seems like bending the knees, if at flatter angles like 55/50 and without twisting the hips, probably results in angulation in the wrong direction), and trying to angulate more with the hips. Does that sound right?

[philfell]

Both of the klug pic are great examples of riding in line with the binding angles. The toe side one his hips are in line with the bindings, his shoulders are somewhat more forward. I suspect that they are more forward because he just blew off the panel, he moved his front are up and forward so it didn't have a chance to get caught in the panel and cause him to spin out. If he was truely trying to ride square to his nose his front arm would be more open and would apear to be further to the left of the frame.

[Kent]

Originally posted by philfell

Both of the klug pic are great examples of riding in line with the binding angles.

LMAO! Phil...you should join Cochran and Shapiro as defensive attorneys! But these pix hurt your case..... ;)

Although, CK definately rides as you state.......the pix are very misleading.

Racing is a different ballgame as "carving". On a race course, you need to keep your mass heading down the hill. Style changes from gate to gate depending if your late, straight or turny.....

Speaking of racing....anybody off to Vermont next week? If so, shoot me a note and we'll hook up for a beer or two.

K

[philfell]

How do they hurt my case for riding in line with the bindings??? His hips ARE in line with his bindings in both pics!

As for the second part of your post, I'll be out to Okemo next week with three of my athletes.