Tim Kienitz Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 This weekend at Mammoth I rode the lift up with a snowboarder racing in his collegiate race league. I asked him what kind of course he was running and he said it was a GS course. Seeing his softie bindings and 161 boardercross set up I said, "You're competing on that? You should be using alpine gear." He replied, " Nah, there's only around two guys using alpine gear but it's basically an understanding that no one should use it. I said " Why not ? Racers using alpine gear would have a huge advantage." He said, "I've tried an alpine board. I don't like them because you can't do anything on them. You can't slide on them. Anyway, I can beat a racer on an alpine board." From my observations, in any racing sport, competitors are always looking for and using the best equipment to gain the advantage. It is interesting how snowboard racing at the college level here in Southern California seems to be the exception being crippled and smothered by the influence of the "cool" misinformed softbooters. How long and what will it take for them to see the light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I'll race that guy. I feel really confident that he won't beat me on my alpine gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kienitz Posted January 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Ya, from what I've heard, it sounds like if he rode alpine gear, you could beat him using softies. Wait... that was not my point. Oh well. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kienitz Posted January 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Kent, Sure, but if that's the case why not race on old Burton Backhills. Isn't it true that racing promotes the evolution of better technology? There is always that frustrated person who might want to cheat a little(using alpine gear) after never being able to podium. I still think the popularity factor is a major part. I do however get many questions about alpine boards by younger kids. I tell them, "Yeah, you can do most of the things softies can do (get air, do jumps, ride fakie etc.) but in a different way. You can also turn better and go much faster." They say, "Cool! Thanks." So there's probably hope but it will take time. We'll see. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy S. Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I was at Alpine Meadows today and there was a high school race. I didn't see one hardbooter. I checked out the course after their first runs. There wasn't a single mark within 2.5 feet of the gate (and that was the 2nd gate!). My son (he's 9) asked why people had skied so far from the gate. I told him it was because they suck and they all are riding softies. I showed him the blue and red marks on my knee braces and explained that they were from the paint on the stubbies. He has his first ever ski race next weekend so I gave him a rudimentary lesson in taking the right line. It is weird. I know I could have crushed every one of those guys on that course today and I'm more than 20 years older than them. In the weekend warrior leage I race in, all the top racers ride plates. We have 3 classes. Once you get past the 2nd class, there are lots of softies, but they're all jealous. People are just handicapping themselves by wearing softies in a race. Plus it reinforces the skiers' view that we are a joke on the race course. Oh, and for fun yesterday I hit the superpipe on my Donek Freecarve 171. I'm not much good at the heelside wall, but I did get out on my toeside and my son was very impressed that I jumped clear of the pipe near the bottom where he was watching. Next week I'll have to try it on the 210 for kicks. Now if I could just figure out how to land it switch I'd be a real stud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragonfly jones Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Wow, where to start... I have been around awhile and agree that in the past we all raced on soft set ups and then Alpina made a nice boot then Kolfach and then the gates flooded open. I'll tell you what, in the state that GS and SL and Para events are in around North America ) I would take a kid riding softies and wanting to train any day of the week - remember we (us old guys) started there - we came from that era, it was rough and tumble - now with the boards boots and bindings being so specific and expensive I would encourge anyone that wants to learn the skills around alpine events to ride them land earn them and help them grow a life long passion for our sport no matter what they are on - were adding riders by doing this. The college scene in SoCal is more about being seen and than a racing scene, hey they are racing, adding to our brotherhood, maybe if we talk with them and show them the way - one day they will be out there laying trenches or ripping gates with us. Just because they are on softies does not mean that they are unwelcome, uneducated or unwashed or are unskilled riders- they just need to see how fun, how rewarding and how learning something hard can help them in other aspects of their lives - each one teach one, I think would be the saying here. So stop and chat make a new friend, give them your number and invite them out to ride - it is an insidious way to spread our gospel. Nuff said, DFJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragonfly jones Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Most of the coaches that are not ski/board academy based are on soft set ups - they teach what they know and to what the kids are riding - as I said before, at least they are giving it a try instead of turning up their noses and saying whatever - we should all encourage that aspect - hey race learn to turn carve, good body position, and mention that Terje raced, Shaun White raced, as did Terry Kidwell, Shaun Palmer, Jean Nerva, Jose Fernandez, Danny Kass and many others. Inspire them don't deride them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woodman Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I've read posts like this before and am always amazed at how many tangents it breaks off into, but what I really think it's about is trying to propagate the riding style of hardboots over alternative types of equipment. My son made the conscious choice to learn how to ride hardboots last season and has never once bemoaned or regretted that decision. Even as young as he is (8) he realizes we do something wholly different from most people not just in our area but at resorts everywhere, and he loves it. I bought him state of the art gear this season (board/boots/bindings) and spent about as much as any boarder would spend on just a board for his whole set-up, so I don't go for that b.s. that equipment is too expensive or hard to find. He may not make it to the olympics or even compete locally for that matter, but he knows what he likes and hardbooting is it. What's "cool" is subjective and always will be, I'm convinced hardbooting is cool, but don't pretend that that's a concensus, it's an opinion. I think if more people were exposed to it that some, not all, would find they liked it better than anything else they've done on snow before and that to me is what this community is about. Sharing, teaching, bitching, griping, lying and overall promoting the continued growth and existence of hardbooting. I won't deny that sports and the equipment that go along with them evolve, but we always seem to end up defending why hardboots should win out over softies. To me it's a non issue, I hardboot, therefore I am. Good carving, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragonfly jones Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Tangent - mine or you own? State of the art for an 8 year old. Impressive. What was your point in all this? Did it mirror or mimic mine? My point was the more the merrier - softies, hards or a combo of both - get out and carve and make the progression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncermak Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 That is the question that one of the 13 year old soft booters asked a 13 year old hardbooter on this past weekends race at Bousquet. I loved the response: I smoked you by 10 seconds...who's board is real? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirror70 Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Hey Noah, Sorry I had to jet right after my 2nd run a couple weekends ago. I had to book it back to Worcester and then Boston on my way up to the Loaf. I would have loved to participate in some after-race keg-draining..err....training, but I wanted to get there before midnight. Are you heading way up north to Stowe this weekend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I think it is probably a combination budget/commitment issue more than anything. Their parents probably won't throw down for another setup, and/or, they want to be able to hit the park/pipe or go freeriding immediately after a race. I agree with dfj, the more the merrier. At least they're out there <i>racing</i>. I'm actually impressed they take it that far, I'd think they'd set their sights only as high as BX and call it good. <i>(hmm, or maybe the gate races are just cross-training for bx)</i> Sooner or later, they will get smoked by the one kid in hardboots, and that will set the hook in at least some of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willywhit Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Seems like the euro kids are much more in tune with alpine gear and racing. Every time I see the results on the World Cup Tour standings it's AUT, SUI, FRA, ITA , GER , Klug, Jasey Jay A. What are thier kids having for breakfast? :rolleyes: USA got all three podium spots in halfpipe at Salt Lake and thank God Klug pulled off the Bronze for US. Our kids are missing out since PGS isn't perceived as "cool". BTW Randy, last week at Mt Snow we watched the local kids practicing in the icy pipe next to the lift. I HAD to throw a LAMO tindy grab next to 2 kids walking back up.Only a foot out but I threw my hands up like I'd stomped a Rodeo. I looked back and they were stoked that the hardbooter could show some style in the pipe.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncermak Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Several years ago, Rossi's New england rep was emptying the basement of old boards. He set me with 6 old alpine set ups, from 145-160 for about $25 each, he even threw in some bindings. NOw I am not going to say that these were great boards in any sense, but it did give me the opportunity to have some boards available that I could put kids on for no expense. I got many a kid to try, and some to even buy and get into it. Unfortunately, I sold and lost that quiver and am looking to rebuild it for my current team. The point is: Coaches: talk to your local shops and reps and anyone who might be able to help out. you never know where you might get lucky. Hell, Jake himself even sent me a couple of boards for the first team I coached. Keep on influencing the kids guys, they hold the future of the sport in their hands... -Noah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Originally posted by willywhit Seems like the euro kids are much more in tune with alpine gear and racing. Is the snowboarding culture in Europe as influenced by skateboard culture as it is in the USA? They even call it snow-surfing, don't they? I met a European carver a few weeks ago and was telling him about the SES and how excited I was to go ride with a hundred other carvers. I tried to convince him to go, but his response was that it wouldn't be anything special for him - just like riding on any resort back home. The thing I don't understand about the "cool" factor is that alpine gear is unarguably cooler looking. Speaking as a guy who grew up loving giant tranforming robots, cars, and video games like most boys, to me alpine boards look like rocket ships whereas twin-tip freestyle boards look like tongue depressors. The bindings look like bad-ass machinery (instead of recycled backpack straps), and the hard boots look like something Robocop would wear. I'm pretty sure if I had a whole suit that looked like my hard boots I'd be able to turn into a car. What's not to like? Also, when I watch an alpine carver coming down, diving down, attacking the slope, it is undeniably way more awesome than watching a guy in cowboy/toilet stance do the same thing. Eh, I don't get it. Maybe I'm just too freakin old now. Blegh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Originally posted by kjl Is the snowboarding culture in Europe as influenced by skateboard culture as it is in the USA? I don't know about that, but I do know that when I took a motorcycle tour through the Swiss and Austrian alps, I noticed that nearly every town had at least one ski lift. I think skiing and therefore ski racing is as much a part of their culture as baseball is to ours. So hardboot carving must benefit from that. The thing I don't understand about the "cool" factor is that alpine gear is unarguably cooler looking. Actually that is quite arguable, depending on who you talk to. I'm sure that many male teen snowboarders call us "eurofags" behind our backs. -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Dragonfly, I'd like to add one more name of freestylers that grew up racing, he was also one of the youngest competitors to qualify for the main event in the U.S. Open Super-G, this person is none other than Ross Powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragonfly jones Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Add - Seth Wescott - Mr. BoarderCross to that list also. Heck there were so many - that history is lost on the youngin's and some other people that populate this forum. Ah well - it is what it is. Time passes, we get older and tend to forget or get so set in our ways that we become obsolete. Well not me - I will be a thorn on the rose that makes people realize that "**** that was fun". Any update on either Vermont or Crystal Mt. Send me a private email. DFJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Michaud Actually that is quite arguable, depending on who you talk to. I'm sure that many male teen snowboarders call us "eurofags" behind our backs. It's a sad day when bad-ass machinery loses out to plastic straps in cool factor. I attribute it entirely to the year when kids stopped watching Robotech and The Transformers and started watching Pokemon and Dragonball Z instead. Lame. Optimus Prime is a hardbooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Originally posted by dragonfly jones Add - Seth Wescott - Mr. BoarderCross to that list also. Seth Wescott - one of my Sugarloaf homies, and an original member of SMHC! For those who don't know, Seth was the top finishing American in FIS Boardercross competition last year (7th). He used to hardboot back in the PJ days, and can really rip great carves on his freeride gear. -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragonfly jones Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Educate them Jack educate them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I wrote: The thing I don't understand about the "cool" factor is that alpine gear is unarguably cooler looking. Jack wrote: Actually that is quite arguable, depending on who you talk to. I'm sure that many male teen snowboarders call us "eurofags" behind our backs. -Jack This is my irrefutable argument :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woodman Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I wasn't talking about your post, I was refering to threads like this from the past that always seem to get off onto a fight over softies vs. hardboots and then unravel into something else all together. And yes, state of the art for what I consider to be top carving gear, Intec step-ins, Titanium bindings and four buckle snowboard specific boots with a racing board. I'm trying to promote hardboot alpine riding, I thought I stated that pretty clearly. Sorry you misinterpreted my post. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Holy s**t that was funny! Right on, Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kienitz Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Kjl, I think Dragonball Z is awesome but my eight year old nephew thinks it's lame. On the other hand, compared to current ski boot development, Raichle boots are a little lame. They use cheaper heavy plastic which breaks and inexpensive weak stamped buckles. For the price I expect a little more. I was blown away when I was in a shop and picked up a pair of tele boots. They were so light and I thought, if only my Head Stratos Pro boots were this light. Still, Raichle is one of only three companies making alpine boots that I know of, and I am forced to support them (I have two pairs). You should have used a picture of the new Catek or Bomber bindings. Now they are awesome! Wouldn't Sponge Bob use Cateks? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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