FTA2R Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 there is a softbooter i'm friendly with who likes to ride fast. his Garmin GPS clocked him this weekend at 54mph. I've heard these units can be low or high by 10mph- anyone know for sure? Also, can some of the more knowledgeable guys chime in as to whether or not there is a speed at which non alpine boards become unstable? 54 mph is pretty damn fast in my book. The guy is in great physical condition, and definitely a risk taker, but I doubt many carvers go that fast, certainly not recreationally. we all think alpine boards are faster- but is it that they are truly faster or just handle speed better / allow more control at speed? or maybe that alpine riders in general are comfortable with riding faster? If base is faster than edge, and carvers are always on their edges vs. softie riders, (let's assume for purposes of this argument softbooters bomb hills on their base) then our boards really aren't faster, are they? Maybe there's a big difference in base materials? edu k8 me please. === Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostertwo Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 ...we all think alpine boards are faster- but is it that they are truly faster or just handle speed better / allow more control at speed? or maybe that alpine riders in general are comfortable with riding faster? My take on it is you can likely go really fast on any type of board setup. I think it's a function of contol at speed: higher speeds/longer boards produce greater forces (especially when turning or stopping), which are more easily managed through a hardboot setup. It's not coincidence that the world speed record is on a hardboot setup. It's simply a better handle by which to manipulate the tool when forces get big.<img src="http://tinypic.com/kdphex.jpg" alt="Spike Eisenman, Keystone, CO"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 carved turns are going to happen at pretty low speeds on most soft gear due to SCR, most of my soft setups have started to feel really twitchy at about the same speed my GS boards starts to feel solid and very turnable softies get really hard to control around 40-45, I found this out by getting towed by a sled though I have held on right up into the 60s but at that point I cant turn at all on hardboots in the same conditions those speeds are still scary as hell but I for one was much more comfortable just so you all know, if you do try to go for speed being towed be careful not to edge too hard because you can flip the guy towing you ohh how I miss the lakes of western ME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Hi Barry, I own a Garmin GPS device (model: Foretrex 201), which I bought to use for speedsurfing, but it also showed to be a very nice "instrument" when snowboarding. Using hardboots and my slalomboard (162 cm, 9.2 m radius), I noticed the speed you easily ("recreationally") reach doing carved turns is around 40 mph (60 km/h). On my GS-board (182 cm, 15 m radius), the speed is higher: 45-50 mph (70-80 km/h). When doing a downhill run on my GS board on an empty(!) slope, I managed to get a 100 meter average speed of 80 mph (130 km/h) - and a top speed of 86 mph (139 km/h). These speeds were calculated from the downloaded track data, see below: Best Speed n°1 = 139.1km/h [75.1Knots] (38.6 meters in 1.0 sec.) 100 meter run n°1 = 131.2km/h [70.8Knots] (109.3 m. in 3.0 s.) 200 meter run n°1 = 120.5km/h [65.1Knots] (200.8 m. in 6.0 s.) On my softboots (which I only have 1 month right now), I stayed below 45 mph. Flat on its base, my board (169 cm BoarderX) is really stable, but while carving it on its edge (even with hardboots) it feels much more unstable at high speeds than an alpine board. Due to lack of experience I also handed my GPS device to a few friends - way better on softboots than I am - however, they did not reach speeds above 50 mph then. One of them told me, he once clocked 80 mph on softies using a GPS, which I do not question seeing him riding. So, personally I think that when doing fully carved turns, a hard-setup is better controllable, more stable and has a better edge-hold compared to a soft-setup and will allow carving at higher speeds. Only few riders can ride a SL or GS course as tight on their softies as others on hardboots. However, if you are crazy enough on your softboots, it is also very well possible to reach high speeds, but I question if you want to turn the board at those speeds...hahaha! Erwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 I'd suggest that GPS measured speeds should be taken with a large pinch of salt unless it's point-point average speed. According to Garmin, their equipment is accurate *on average* to 15m or 3m if you have WAAS equipment and coverage. So, although a GPS might give you a reasonable measurement of average speed over a course where you're running more or less straight from point to point (think racing someone down the line of a chairlift, for example), it's unlikely to give you a sensible measurement of 'speed over the snow' at any given point in time. Expecially for a carver, who is likely to be pulling turns that approach the equipment's error margin for measurements (especially over here in yurp, where there is no WAAS coverage) I'd question 54mph if it was a 'point speed'. GPS samples every 0.5 seconds. 54mph is about 24 m/sec, assuming a worst case error of 6m (2 x 3m average accuracy) between two samples, that's +- 25% of the speed. As regards flat out speed, there's probably not much difference between the speeds an average rider could attain on a freeride setup and the speeds they could attain on a carving setup. In the same way that anyone can get on a musclebike and twist their wrist to do insane speeds in a straght line, pretty much anyone with a modicum of control and a quantity of nerve can point a snowboard down the fall line and go flat out. Terminal velocity in such a case is liable to be dictated more by air drag due to stance than the board unless you're a dedicated 'kilometre lancee' freak anyway. For the average rider, it's when you start adding turns into the equation that the men get sorted from the boys, as it were. I am quite confident that, given a good tune on both, I could go as fast in a straight line on my freeride setup as on my alpine setup before the self-preservation instinct took over. But I know I can turn while holding more speed on my alpine setup - turning hard at speed on my freeride setup can be a brown-trousering experience... Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thomas_m Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 You guys are forgetting long, steep powder bowls and big mountains. The speeds attained at (relatively) safe levels can be unreal. I ride open powder _lots_ faster than my hardboot rig. Like Bordy said in his Dupraz review, it's fun to just straightline the entire hill on a good powder day and feel the magic carpet ride. Watch any of the old TB series of Johan Olaffson in AK bombing down open runs. He's barely touching the surface and I'm sure any slip would be a near-death experience if not fatal. Outside of designated speed contests, the guys freeriding big peaks are probably riding faster than the similarly elite hardbooters. However, it does seem that lately, the big name freeriders have moved to such steep terrain and are pulling tricks over features in the middle of big AK runs that they don't look like they are riding quite as fast as in some of the older vids. T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTA2R Posted January 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 ok, so apparently he just bombed a pretty steep black diamond. apparently he didn't feel any chatter....interseting stuff being said in replies above, thx. The whole "alpine is the tool for turning going fast and anyone can straightline" makes sense to me. here's a thought to ponder: does riding the edge "feel" faster than the base? I sorta think so.... === Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy S. Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Anyone in the Bay Area have a GPS that measures speed? I'd be happy to bring out my radar gun for a comparison. I don't see any reason to doubt that your friend could go 55 on a soft set up. 80mph seems pretty darned fast. I've been clocked at 70 on my SG board and that seemed very fast. I started getting some air under the board around 65 and it gets a little squirrely. I think I really need to work on my tuck technique and also pressuring the front of the board more (maybe move bindings forward?). I think its faster riding a flat base, but it is definitely more stable if you are slightly on edge, carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 I agree that a Garmin will be sampling "speed" and the accuracy depends on how often the machine cycles, but.....my ex was a GPS fanatic and very frequently would check the "speed" listed on his unit....pretty good correlation, at least between my Expedition's speedometer and his Garmin.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toddflyingdog Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Ski Sunlight used to bring out a cop for a speed event. Sixties are very fast, over seventy means straightlined and tucked. But I don't believe your claim of 80. Each mile an hour faster is exponential as far as how fast it feels... so maybe it felt like you were going 80... but i don't trust your gps... I'd love to go out with you to try to repeat it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toddflyingdog Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 54 mph is totally believable... Most of the riding I do is in the mid forties, ( I recognize this speed because it is the velocity at which long boards (skateboards) get really scary.) But I pass gapers at over 50 every day, and man do they hate that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toddflyingdog Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Allright re-reading my posts I admit I am a grouch... needed lunch, but was waiting on my wife... I believe 80 mph is possible, but most hills don't have any runs steep enough. I was riding Ski Cooper this morning and doubt that 60 would be possible there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toddflyingdog Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Its not really snowboarding unless you are linking turns... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTA2R Posted January 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 "not snowboarding unless linking turns" have to comment on this one, even if thread goes in another direction. I agree and disagree with it. technically it's boarding of course. Takes us back to an old debate- some here don't acknowledge "pipe monkeying" all day as real boarding, or maybe a lower form of boarding, and I'm sure feeling is mutual (ex: carvers closer to skiing, they don't do tricks, etc"). plus this website is named "bomber" online, lol. I say bombing runs is definitley boarding. I think a better question is "does it take skill to bomb a certain run(s)?" Again, I say sometimes yes, sometimes no. Almost any solid intermediate can go as fast as his/her nerve will allow, you know lol? and I personally do respect that. But to ride at speed in at least moderate control-this, in my opinion, is where many of us carvers excel, and I think it is a "loftier" goal than simply "will to bomb a run." I do respect guts, though. what do others think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Glynn Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 A flat base is faster than an edged board If you are going straight. But if you are turning, an edged board accelerates where as a flatened board, looking for its base, is just skidding. So if we are also talking about how fast you can go while turning and which type of board would win out: I'd say that if the riders had equal skills that a full on carve deck would win hands down. It just has too much energy to give back to a skilled rider for a soft set up to compete with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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