Guest Redman Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Being new to hard booting, I would like to know the pros/cons between step in and toe clip binders. I realize step ins may be a little more convenient as you only have to bend down once to release but aside from that, what are the other differences? Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 you may find some info in this thread: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4623&highlight=intec+heel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Red - This has come up a few times. Check out these threads: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4721&highlight=standard+v+stepin http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1469&highlight=standard+v+stepin http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1026&highlight=standard+v+stepin http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1537&highlight=standard+v+stepin Also check out the Carver's Almanac section here: http://www.alpinecarving.com/bindings.html Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redman Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Thanks guys, I often forget about the search features on forums... Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 I haven't read every back post on this issue (I'll get around to it eventually)...but I just want to go on record as saying, I love the toe-clip F2 bindings I'm using! :) Of course, I'm a beginner...but even the toe-clip bindings are WAY easier to get in/out of than 2-strap soft bindings! (Unless you have Flows, which I guess are a bit easier...) I have no trouble bending over, and I'm 42. Getting into toe-clips can be almost as fast as step-ins...and I can get out of mine every bit as fast as someone with step-ins. (I just reach down while I'm coasting to a stop and flip the bail---done!) So I think all the griping about toe-clips is just silly. Step-Ins are fine...but c'mon! Are we that lazy??? (Or suffering from that much "ski binding envy?") Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 stepins are easier to "get in", but I would argue that "getting out" is not that much easier. One still needs to bend and reach the handle, which is somewhere under the pants (unless you got customized pants pipes) and pull it. You might as well bend 15 inches lower and reach the clip. Used to have stepins. changed them to toe clips for reasons already mentioned so many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy S. Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 I've been a huge fan of step-ins for the past few years. I even modified my pants so that I don't have to bend down to release. However, after seeing what happened to Joel Broadbent's leg after his intec heels failed, I've been having 2nd thoughts. I bought bails this season to try them out (because I was told performance was different and I wanted to see for myself). Because of my injury, I haven't been able to do the experiment. However, regardless of performance stuff, I'm still considering switching back. I really don't want to switch, but I'd hate to end up like Joel and he and I ride similarly. FYI, apparently F2 has been sued 2-3 other times over the same issue. Considering how many heels are out there, that's probably not enough to get all worked up over it, but its still sufficient to give me pause. For those of you who don't know. Joel was carvng a wide, smooth piste (1st tracks on cord) on December 24. He had fairly new boots, and 2 week-old heels that had been installed properly. He was using Bomber TD2 step-ins. Just after initiating a heelside turn, the metal pins in his forward heel failed. His foot slid off the board and in the resulting fall/spin, his lower leg was basically shattered. He's had titanium inserted but it isn't healing well. Last I heard he was facing possible amputation below the knee. He's pursuing legal action against F2 and probably can't comment on that part. It would appear they'll cover his medical expenses and some money for suffering, but how do you put a price on the loss of part of your leg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Randy, Joel's unfortunate case was a big reason for me to think deeper about the intec heel and so I said bye to stepins and bought two new sets of regular bindings with toe clips. Trusting two metal pins inside a plastic piece to resist all the weight plus extra Gs in a turn is not something I'm comfortable with anymore. I understand that there are also some risks associated with toe clips such as sudden opening of the them in the middle of a ride as some suggested in the past (I doubt that had happened with bombers or cateks ). But I'd still trust metal above plastic for my bindings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 I have broken bails and I have been ejected from bails as well. from a performance aspect intec is much stiffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chillaxin.nl Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 I ride intec step-ins, since i have had the same experience as Joe but then with normal toe clips. During my heelside turn both (!) bindings opened for some crazy reason i still can't figure out. Almost lost my board and my thumb was pulled out of the socket....only step-ins for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywalker Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 my two... I've seen many many riders, who broke the bails of their front clip binding, but only a very few who broka any part of the intecs. Some of the riders I know, break the bails of their front clip binding at least once every saison. Most of us have experienced braking bails. As I can not see any difference between the failings of front clip bindings and intec bindings, failing intecs should not be an argument to avoid them. I would estimate the failure rates of step ins lower than those of front clip bindings. this said, I ride with conventional bindings and love them ;) Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 I would estimate the failure rates of step ins lower than those of front clip bindings. One could "guess" that rate. In order to "estimate", you need to have an idea about the number of people riding clips vs. those with intecs. Now, would you say that the number of riders with each type of these bindings are equal or even close to each other? I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywalker Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 although one might not agree, some times I know, what I am writing ;) I estimate the number of riders using conventional bindings somewhere below 5 times the number of those using intecs. This may differ from area to area, country to country,... But: Amongst the riders I can watch, the numbers are in the mentioned area. At the same time, I might know about 30 broken front clip bindings and 1 (one) failure of intecs. So this is my estimation. You may keep your case rested ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by kamran Now, would you say that the number of riders with each type of these bindings are equal or even close to each other? I rest my case. In Japan I'd estimate there's 2 Intec riders for every one toe-clip rider. And a larger number of hard-booters overall compared to the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 At the same time, I might know about 30 broken front clip bindings and 1 (one) failure of intecs. Still a one man observation....woof woof...;) Kidding aside, I think it's a good thing that both systems are available and apparantly make different categories of people happy at the same time. I'd consider going back to stepins, as soon as someone designs a better heel (no lame plastic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy S. Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by kamran I'd consider going back to stepins, as soon as someone designs a better heel (no lame plastic). If F2 ends up having to settle with Joel for 7 figures, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a re-designed heel soon. A few thousand in R&D is cheaper than another law suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Randy, Indeed, but like you said, you can't put a price on a part of your body. I sincerely hope he gets to keep his leg. A few years ago a guy was told that they had to amputate his leg (for another medical reason) in Austria...he did a lot of research and found a medical team in The Netherlands (Groningen) where they were able to save the leg and his insurance covered it for 75% and he paid the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK in PA Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 I came off of riding old Burton clip-in's and into new Bomber TD step-in's this season. What a world of difference! The heel bails and overall construction is so much beefier than my old Burton's, And my legs no longer flop around in the step-ins. Switching to the step-in's felt almost like when I first switched from softboots to hardboots. Solid. I also like how much easier and faster it is to get into and out of the binding. (I keep my pant cuff pulled up a little on my back foot so I can grab the cable easily.) Once I get around to getting new pants, I plan to cut and seam a small slot in the leg for the cable, so I can keep the pant leg pulled down. One thing I like about the Bomber step-ins, is that there is a small bevel cut in above each hole. That makes it easy to glance down after stepping in to make sure the pin is engaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelc Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 I think I remember seeing a link posted here to a Korean or Japanese site which showed step-ins consisting of a solid heel piece with a pinthrough it like the intec pins but rigid and stationary, with the clip mechanism built into the binding, much like a gate latch - I though at the time that as an engineering solution this might be better - easier to make stronger etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dold Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 I have seen two binding releases. Neither resulted in injury, but it gives me the willies thinking about them. Both were on standard bindings, one was caused by the binding not being tight enough (TD-2 standard), the other was a Race Plate, the toe clip wasn't over-center enough. It really drives home how important it is that the bindings are adjusted correctly. Beats me which one )Stepin or standard) is safer. Neither one seems very safe to me. I think the safest would be an intec-style binding with a little more "give" in the heel block to take some load away from the heel pins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Originally posted by Steve Dold I have seen two binding releases. Neither resulted in injury, but it gives me the willies thinking about them. Both were on standard bindings, one was caused by the binding not being tight enough (TD-2 standard), the other was a Race Plate, the toe clip wasn't over-center enough. It really drives home how important it is that the bindings are adjusted correctly. Which leads me to a question I've heard varying responses to...how tight should toe-clip bindings be? a) so you can easily do it with one hand? b) you can do it with one hand, but it's hard? c) you need two hands, but it's easy d) you have to hoss like mad with two hands Like I said, I've heard both B and C. I'm currently set up for B. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tim Tuthill Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Randy and all: Doug Dryer and I had this disscution at the SES. He has gone to useing 2 sets per season. It's cheap insurance. He said he checks the pins for burrs and fit to match up with the holes. This is my second season with stepins and I'm happy with them. I have a cord from the handle to a ring at my upper thigh thanks to info from Randy, works great. There are a number of ways to deal with this. Many guys at the SES were doing the same thing. The point about unwanted release as to how many in use is something to consider. As always check your stuff, make sure it's clean and the pins are at full travel. I put spray lube on the pins while working them. So far so good. Oh, on the toe clip, are you seeing flex in your boot toes? If you do, they are too tight no matter how much or little force you use. I think the racers beat the hell out of the equip more than the carve guys do? Your thought's on that Randy? Oh yea, one more thing, How many days are you putting in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Originally posted by SWriverstone Which leads me to a question I've heard varying responses to...how tight should toe-clip bindings be? b) you can do it with one hand, but it's hard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamran Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Oh, on the toe clip, are you seeing flex in your boot toes? Good test. Makes sense! thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 For the record...2 seasons Intec stepins....no releases 3 seasons toe clip....one release (binding too loose) Check your gear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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