Knee protection

[nuisanceIV]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

Flo liners don't have a great deal of volume around the shin iirc. Do you have a gap between your liner and shin? 

 

Yeah, I stuck these tongue pads behind the tongue, and could still slip a finger down there w/o that much force. I'm 6' and 160lb on a heavy day, my shins/ankles are skinny.

Edited January 23, 2019 by nuisanceIV

[daveo]

5 minutes ago, nuisanceIV said:

 

Yeah, I stuck these tongue pads behind the tongue, and could still slip a finger down there w/o that much force. I'm 6' and 160lb on a heavy day, my shins/ankles are skinny.

Shintronics. Easy fix.

[nuisanceIV]

Just now, daveo said:

Shintronics. Easy fix.

Alright. I'll order one soon and try it out. Thanks.

[daveo]

Or if you are planning on replacing your liners anyway, do that first. Overlap liners offer more padding around the calf.

You can make your own shintronics out of an old wetsuit. 

[Beckmann AG]

13 minutes ago, daveo said:

You can make your own shintronics out of an old wetsuit. 

Or mouse pad.

Or maybe slip a section of soccer shin guard between the outside of the liner tongue and the boot tongue.

Shintronics are long enough and thick enough that they can impinge on the tibialis anticus, thereby restricting foot movement.

If your legs are slight enough that you could be mistaken for riding  a chicken when wearing shorts, add some form of padding around the entire cuff area. Otherwise, if you only add to the tongue, your leg might get pulled back straight against the cuff, blocking knee flexion.

Regardless, you want even contact all the way around without gaps. Like your boot is giving you a nice hug. Or firm handshake. 

As to the 6 degree base disc, what he said in the earlier post. Some prefer more toe lift, some less, and you won't know for yourself until you have a few reference points.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[daveo]

6 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Shintronics are long enough and thick enough that they can impinge on the tibialis anticus, thereby restricting foot movement. 

No. You are incorrect.

They're shorter than a mousepad as per your suggestion and they wrap around the entire leg and they are sized accordingly and they are not pulled up tightly. They have extra foam that sits against your shin bone which relieves pressure from the tibialus anterior. The boot is done up less tight with shintronics due to the complete contact around the entire leg.

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

No. You are incorrect.

They're shorter than a mousepad as per your suggestion and they wrap around the entire leg and they are sized accordingly and they are not pulled up tightly. They have extra foam that sits against your shin bone which relieves pressure from the tibialus anterior. The boot is done up less tight with shintronics due to the complete contact around the entire leg.

The pair I have gathering dust in the parts bin works as I've described. Maybe that's why they're dusty. 

Regardless, adding padding without consideration can have side effects.

 

 

[daveo]

13 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

The pair I have gathering dust in the parts bin works as I've described. Maybe that's why they're dusty. 

Regardless, adding padding without consideration can have side effects.

 

 

Sounds like you were using them incorrectly, having them too low, doing boots too tight, did not have the shin pad installed or you do not have chicken legs, in which case there are better alternatives.

Yes, and riding with a gaping void around your calf will generally cause shin bang.

[Beckmann AG]

4 minutes ago, daveo said:

in which case there are better alternatives.

Such as boots that fit properly. As mine do, and as I assume yours do as well.

Unfortunately, the OP does not appear to have a UPZ leg, and he should be aware that adding material to solve one problem can create another. 

 

 

[daveo]

21 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Such as boots that fit properly. As mine do, and as I assume yours do as well.

Unfortunately, the OP does not appear to have a UPZ leg, and he should be aware that adding material to solve one problem can create another. 

 

 

With properly fitting boots, ie no room in calf, shintronics has a higher likelihood to impede the function of tibialus anterior, which if your boots were correctly fitting when you tried them, that's why they sucked. That's not their purpose.

Actually, I think he doesn't have a flo liner leg. Not so much a non-upz leg. I know you like flo liners and dislike thermos and that's fine, but you can't escape the fact that a low volume liner plus a low volume calf equals room between the shell and calf.

I had the same issue in my driver x boots since the shells are much higher volume and my Palau liners could not take up the space. Shintronics I found were amazing in this use-case since they took up equal amounts of volume around my calf. The amount of power and direct transmission I gained from the contract was great, also the shin pain I had from riding without them didn't return.

If he doesn't have a UPZ leg, he definitely doesn't have a deeluxe leg. Iirc the deeluxe calf...hole? is bigger than UPZ. Mountain Slope is narrower, though, and my Zipfits in the MS feel amazing......on carpet. Few more days to go. Will report back.

He may not have the ladders adjusted to the smaller of the two positions or buckle micro adjustment not retracted, also.

Edited January 23, 2019 by daveo

[daveo]

2 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

If your legs are slight enough that you could be mistaken for riding  a chicken when wearing shorts, add some form of padding around the entire cuff area.

This is literally shintronics...

[nuisanceIV]

25 minutes ago, daveo said:

If he doesn't have a UPZ leg, he definitely doesn't have a deeluxe leg. Iirc the deeluxe calf...hole? is bigger than UPZ. Mountain Slope is narrower, though, and my Zipfits in the MS feel amazing......on carpet. Few more days to go. Will report back.

Yeah I heard UPZ has a narrow ankle/leg hence why I got it over the deeluxe. But I guess narrow is relative. Maybe I should of gone 2/1.5 sizes down but that just sounds like madness - eh but based on the reactions I've been getting at work, so is hardbooting.

My issue with Mountain Slope is the price. $800 is well out of my budget. It's simply not an option. 

 

Looks like the game plan is to jury rig the FLO into working, and then getting a new liner. I'll report back what happens just incase someone else is having similar issues as me. This thread should probably be re-named.... Thanks for the help everyone!

[nuisanceIV]

5 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

I recently measured the difference in boot sole thickness between the heel and toe of my mondo 29 UPZ RC10s, 2016 model. The effective slope over the sole length of the boot allowing for the Intec heels I use was almost exactly 6 degrees.

Maybe that's why I look like a Satyr in these when combined with FWD lean...

[Beckmann AG]

21 hours ago, nuisanceIV said:

Maybe that's why I look like a Satyr in these when combined with FWD lean...

It's not just you.

That remark earlier regarding poultry wasn't intended as an insult. The phrase " Are those your legs, or are you riding a chicken?"  was a common means of tweaking some of the road cyclists we used to train with.

BMI obsession, and so forth.

 

22 hours ago, daveo said:

With properly fitting boots, ie no room in calf, shintronics has a higher likelihood to impede the function of tibialus anterior, which if your boots were correctly fitting when you tried them, that's why they sucked. That's not their purpose.

Actually, I think he doesn't have a flo liner leg. Not so much a non-upz leg. I know you like flo liners and dislike thermos and that's fine, but you can't escape the fact that a low volume liner plus a low volume calf equals room between the shell and calf.

Appears you're busy trotting past dollars to pick up post-count.

Back when I skied in Lange ZRs, I went to a boot fitter to resolve the classic 'heel lifting in boot' scenario. He glued some material to the front of the liner tongues. Felt good in the shop, was extremely hazardous on snow. This, on account of the padding completely blocking  the prominent tendon located directly in front of the ankle joint. The one that contributes to dorsiflexion/inversion.

It's the distal terminus of the Tibialis Anterior muscle you've repeatedly referenced. Aka Tibialis Anticus.  Looking back, I should have been more specific about the mechanism. Figured it would have been obvious that pressing on the muscle itself wouldn't do much other than cause localized irritation. 

(Turned out the actual problem with the 'lifting heel' was reading too many how to ski articles in Ski Magazine. Problem went away when I figured out how to use my feet rather than leaning on the plastic.)

Anyway, would be extremely difficult to misuse the later 'beer coozie' version of the Shintronics, but thanks for thinking I'd be talented enough to do so.

As with boots, I prefer liners that best serve the application. If his goal is a quick fix in that particular shell, then perhaps some derivative of the thermo liner is his best bet.  Better long term fix might be to scavenge a smaller set of cuffs from a used pair of boots, and/or use a liner with an injection foam tongue. If his foot is bony, HP foam will probably be the way to go if the budget will permit that kind of thing.

Either way, he'll want to be wary of how padding/cinching the upper cuff affects knee and ankle flex.

 

 

[daveo]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Appears you're busy trotting past dollars to pick up post-count.

Back when I skied in Lange ZRs, I went to a boot fitter to resolve the classic 'heel lifting in boot' scenario. He glued some material to the front of the liner tongues. Felt good in the shop, was extremely hazardous on snow. This, on account of the padding completely blocking  the prominent tendon located directly in front of the ankle joint. The one that contributes to dorsiflexion/inversion.

It's the distal terminus of the Tibialis Anterior muscle you've repeatedly referenced. Aka Tibialis Anticus.  Looking back, I should have been more specific about the mechanism. Figured it would have been obvious that pressing on the muscle itself wouldn't do much other than cause localized irritation.

Post count means nothing to me, but when I post it is about my own first hand experience with something and I probably have something to offer. For instance, I wouldn't write 5,000 words in a thread which I don't have first hand experience in the area of discussion.

Sorry I should have been more specific, I figured it was obvious that I meant if you're getting pressure on any of tibialus anterior, then you're either not wearing them properly or you didn't need them to begin with.

But then again, I only know one thing, and that is that I actually know nothing.

[nuisanceIV]

Looks like most of my issues are fixed. The bootfitter threw some C bars around my ankle. This locks down the heel very, very well. This allowed me to feel confident loosening the boots a tad. I think I was cranking them down way too tight to prevent heel movement(it was basically becoming a "tighten at top of chair, blast down the mountain before feet go numb/cold, and loosen at bottom. Repeat"). Once they were loosened everything felt great. Still very, very responsive, no play up top or near the ankle/instep. My guess is only part of my shin was going against the boot when I leaned forward(or I got rocked by a bump), so the pressure was uneven and just going into one spot. Now I can focus more on my technique.

 

Thanks ya'll for the help and insights. It helped tremendously. 

 

Quote

That remark earlier regarding poultry wasn't intended as an insult. The phrase " Are those your legs, or are you riding a chicken?"  was a common means of tweaking some of the road cyclists we used to train with.

Yeah, I thought so. Don't worry you're good. There's actually a picture of my legs above in this thread, they don't look that small!

Edited January 30, 2019 by nuisanceIV

[Beckmann AG]

2 hours ago, nuisanceIV said:

Looks like most of my issues are fixed. The bootfitter threw some C bars around my ankle. This locks down the heel very, very well.

To ensure you don't develop another issue, make sure the added padding doesn't run across, or otherwise contact the achilles tendon. Some of the C wraps are two piece, some are one-piece. The one-piece version is the one that can cause problems.