SWriverstone Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 As I've been learning to carve, my turns have gotten better, but I was still skidding a lot (or "skarving" my turns). Last night, I was a bit irritated with myself, so I tried a different approach: I "outlawed" skidding for the night---I refused to let myself skid at all, anywhere, period. (Especially in turns.) This made a BIG difference in my riding. What I found was that requiring myself not to skid forced me to keep the board on edge...which forced me to use better technique...which resulted in tighter trenches throughout all my turns and carrying a LOT more speed across the slope into my next turn. Furthermore, eliminating skidding also forced me to relax more in my turns, not force the board around too suddenly, and just follow the carve. I know I've still got lots to learn and practice...but I just thought I'd mention this as a possible approach to teaching someone to carve: simply "forbid" skidding. In my experience, this doesn't leave someone any options---they must get on edge...and if they're using bad technique to do it, they'll get tired very quickly. So this (in turn) forces someone to use (or figure out) a better way to stay on edge more comfortably for longer (through angulation, ankles/knees, etc.) Does this make sense? I'm posting this because I'm curious to see if the experts can debunk this or suggest why this is a bad approach? (All part of my own learning process!) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldrider Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by SWriverstone This made a BIG difference in my riding. What I found was that requiring myself not to skid forced me to keep the board on edge...which forced me to use better technique...which resulted in tighter trenches throughout all my turns and carrying a LOT more speed across the slope into my next turn. In my experience, this doesn't leave someone any options---they must get on edge...and if they're using bad technique to do it, they'll get tired very quickly. So this (in turn) forces someone to use (or figure out) a better way to stay on edge more comfortably for longer (through angulation, ankles/knees, etc.) Hi Scott,Glad to hear of your ongoing progress on the slopes. While I know the sensation of carving feels like you are getting the board more on edge, I think you can skid OR carve with the exact same edge angles (after all, you still need to tilt the board on edge to skid). IMO, the difference between skidding and carving is that when you carve the board is always pointed in exactly the same direction as it is traveling. I think developing the accuracy in steering movements (the ones you use to guide the tail in the exact same path as the tip) is the most productive way to start ripping arcs on a snowboard. Mi dos centavos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 That's the idea behind the Norm - remove all "steering" from the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timinor Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Hi Scott, It makes perfect sense. Sometimes that rule necesitates a flatter slope at first since no skidding means faster speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by Coldrider While I know the sensation of carving feels like you are getting the board more on edge, I think you can skid OR carve with the exact same edge angles (after all, you still need to tilt the board on edge to skid). IMO, the difference between skidding and carving is that when you carve the board is always pointed in exactly the same direction as it is traveling. I think developing the accuracy in steering movements (the ones you use to guide the tail in the exact same path as the tip) is the most productive way to start ripping arcs on a snowboard. Mi dos centavos. Good point Coldrider---I forgot to mention that. And though just having the board on edge doesn't mean you won't skid, in my case I found this was the case---I didn't skid. This might be because my technique was already in the ballpark (if not refined). I found that, in addition to keeping the board on edge, "forbidding" myself to skid involved a conscious attempt to "flow," or focus on forward movement at all times, whether it was across the slope or around a turn. As far as the "No Skid" approach goes, it seems like if you're on edge and you're skidding, you're either not flowing 100% forward (there is some angular component too)...or you're not doing it with enough speed. (Or the slope is crazy steep!) All said with acknowledgement I'm still a rookie! Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Todd Stewart Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 SWriverstone, you're right. Once a person gets the feel and knows how to do a non-skid turn, the best way to make sure they continue doing that is by telling them never to skid again. I have found the best way to teach a non-skid turn is to do a drill called high-marking. This is where the coach picks out an object to turn around then the studends do one massive turn to see who can get the highest back up the hill. I tell the students they have to roll on to there edge rather then skid then finish the turn on edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Kent... Yes, Phil (with whom I recently had a lesson) also mentioned that high-speed, controlled skids are an art form in themselves. In my case, I want to learn how to eliminate them before I put them back into the equation. I'm already pretty good at skidding like mad and riding my carving board like a kid on a freeride board! :) Regarding letting the board control me...I feel like I'm in the gray area between that and controlling the board. I feel it's good to "let the board go" at first just to see what it's natural path is...then start adding control. And yes, I'm working on adjustments from the feet up---that's probably been the biggest technique hurdle for me to overcome...but it's coming. --- Todd...cool, I didn't know it was called "high-marking." I've done that many times..sometimes by accident, and sometimes on purpose...and it's always fun but scary, because I suck at jumping up and doing a 180 to face back down the slope---so I often either fall over, or start sliding backwards and then fall over! :) Once again, I've found my years of whitewater slalom paddling are helping. Water (even fast whitewater) is a far more "viscous" medium (greater friction) than a snowboard on sloped snow or ice...if you don't glide and turn efficiently in a kayak, you lose all your speed VERY fast. This typically isn't noticed by kayakers because they're already moving with the current...but many don't realize if you don't move a lot faster than the current, you're driftwood. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philistine Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Scott- It's inspiring to read about mental breakthroughs of this sort. It's crazy that once your brain gets those pathways laid down and you know how to get to them, it gets alot easier. This is my first season of riding alpine and I have experienced lots of frustration and only a few breakthroughs. My most recent breakthrough was buying a slalom skateboard, I've had it for about three weeks now and it's made an incredible differnce in my snowboarding. I guess because when you're skateboarding the board isn't attached to your feet so to carve that board around under your feet, you really need to have the correct body movements and I think that's what transfered over to my snowboarding. I reccomend this type of skateboarding for anyone who wants to train for snowboarding. I've still got a looonngg ways to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjamie Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 interesting philistine. What board did you buy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philistine Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 It's a slalom skateboard from Pocket Pistols. It's one of of their E series. The trucks I'm using are seismic 105's, seismic is an innovative type of company out of Boulder Colorado, great product. If you're interested check out slalomskateboarder.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjamie Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by philistine It's a slalom skateboard from Pocket Pistols. It's one of of their E series. The trucks I'm using are seismic 105's, seismic is an innovative type of company out of Boulder Colorado, great product. If you're interested check out slalomskateboarder.com Interesting indeed. How does the pocket pistol board perform at higher speeds? Any wobble? Also, from the videos it looks like this certainly is a slalom board; how does it handle wider, more drawn out carves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philistine Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 From what I've experienced, the pocket pistol, trucks and wheels are very stable at high speeds. The seismic trucks have two sets of springs that act like the rubber bushings on normal trucks and you can adjust the tension on the springs so that they handle much more responsively at high speeds. I have been going down a fairly steep hill and purposely starting a woobble so that I can get more comfortable at high speeds, so far, I have been able to control even the worst wobbles. Yes, it is a slalom board that's for sure. Big turns are fun and stable, but not at very high speeds, bottoming out can be an issue. I don't know much about slalom boards but I know that there are boards that are more directed towards Giant Slalom and the wheels have much more clearance from the board. There are also carving boards that are meant for just that, carving, there is no possibility of bottoming out one of those boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirror70 Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 I don't mean to knock you down, but I don't think this is a good approach at all. For it to be successful, the person needs to already know how to carve turns. From there, does it not make sense to try to use the technique as much as possible? It would seem to be that if you want to practice something, then you practice it. Otherwise, wtf are you doing? You'd be practicing skidded turns with the hope that you will magically learn how to carve. If you don't already know how to carve, then simply telling yourself "carve" isn't going to help. That's a lot like me going in to the park and telling myself I'll do a 1080 - it just ain't gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 yeah, but mirror...if you just LEAN on a snowboard and trust it, it WILL carve. not powerful dynamic carves of course, but...theyre "all edge" turns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Scott, What are you considering "to skid"? Is it going down the fall line with the board perpendicular to the direction you're travelling or is it the tail washing out a bit while you're trying to control your speed or something else? I think it might help the discussion... k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by mirror70 I don't mean to knock you down, but I don't think this is a good approach at all. For it to be successful, the person needs to already know how to carve turns. From there, does it not make sense to try to use the technique as much as possible? It would seem to be that if you want to practice something, then you practice it. Otherwise, wtf are you doing? You'd be practicing skidded turns with the hope that you will magically learn how to carve. If you don't already know how to carve, then simply telling yourself "carve" isn't going to help. That's a lot like me going in to the park and telling myself I'll do a 1080 - it just ain't gonna happen. You have a point mirror (and no offense taken!). I mentioned in an earlier post that my carving technique was already "in the ballpark" before I "banned" skidding. Meaning I was already laying over on turns, committing to the turns, and making some nice circular trenches...it's just that my trenches were getting fat in places from skidding. And that's what annoyed me! I think it would be an interesting experiment though to take a total newbie to carving (whether on a freeride board or carving board) and basically "order" them to do turns without skidding...and then stand back and watch what happens over time. (Any volunteers?) They might not acquire great carving technique...but I'd be willing to bet the end result would not be far off. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirror70 Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Originally posted by SWriverstone I think it would be an interesting experiment though to take a total newbie to carving (whether on a freeride board or carving board) and basically "order" them to do turns without skidding...and then stand back and watch what happens over time. (Any volunteers?) They might not acquire great carving technique...but I'd be willing to bet the end result would not be far off. I do this with newbies and self-proclaimed "advanced" riders every day. If the rider already knows what a carved turn is, then it works. If not, then you need to start at the very beginning and go from there. You can't just "order" someone to do what he has no idea how to do. If the rider already knows how to carve, it is very rare that you need to order him to do that - he will almost always carve when he can because he feels much more comfortable carving than skidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 I think one of the hardest thing for me was the "mental game" aka.... learning to trust your equipment..... yes, carving boards "like" to seek the fall-line and "like" to carve, but the hard thing for most is learning to trust it. I think we've probably all had times when it feels like the board is taking us for a ride and that can be a little scary... especially on a narrow or crowded slope. I, for one, am not a daredevil and spent many years trying to trust my board. I probably could still stand to get more agressive during the transition and into the next turn. Maybe "forcing" yourself to not skid is part of your mental game and works for you. I don't like anyone to force me to do anything.... even if it is me trying to force myself to push it a little harder. Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 I figured out the def of "skid" I guess I oughta read the thread a bit more thoroughly (red faced). I think the real lesson is to stay within the student's fear envelope. Don't get on a slope that will make them fear the speed the carve will put them in. When I first started I was thrown onto a black run by some aquantances and just sideslipped down the run (when I wasn't sliding on my butt that is). After that I just hung out alone on the bunny slope, carved , stayed on edge and put into practice everything I read in Snowboard Life and the various books I read (no English instruction in Italy). After two days of being exclulsively on edge on the greens I was going down Alpine Blues (probably the equivalent of between a blue and black here) with aggression and confidence. The thing you just have to avoid is putting someone into a situation that they have no confidence in handling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Originally posted by Kent As you progress, I'd make certain that you are riding the board rather than the board ride you. Without meaning to contradict this advice, I think that in the initial stage you have to let the board ride you. By this I mean being a passenger on a railing board without much input over the radius of your turn. That's how it first worked for me, and that seems to be the logic behind the Norm. Once you get it, then you can start trying to control it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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