speed snowboarding

[philw]

Here's Germany's Peter Bittner from this weekend's FIS speed ski event in Goldeck, Austria. This shot is from qualifying - I haven't processed the main event shots yet.

Custom race board, releasable plate bindings, standard Rachlie 225s, 70 degree angles. Arms held in front to steer.

Speed about 130km/h - this is a slow technical course. The record's 220 or something like that. Fast enough. There's also a production class. I have some shots of a guy on a Sims Burner, which lifted nicely off the snow at high speed so you could see the logo on the bottom. Excessively exciting I'd say. For the rider anway.

[Chubz]

Going that fast you have to have a set of big ones but, I dont see where he could tuck them. I cant imagine catching and edge going that fast. Great pic though. I thought I rode fast.

[outsider]

Originally posted by Chubz

I cant imagine catching and edge going that fast.

because there hasnt been anyone around afterwards to tell us about it it

[Guest Randy S.]

Anybody have specs on the boards they use? I like my 210 for going fast, but because the nose is a bit high, it gets air under the board around 70mph which, as Phil pointed out, gets pretty exciting. I tried to talke the folks at Sun Peaks into letting snowboards compete in their speed competition, but no luck. I ran a Super G last season that was a blast. In between training runs a couple of us took my radar gun out and clocked ourselves.

Phil, if you could get me more info on the bindings they use and boards, I'd love to hear about it. Or if you can track down contact info on some of the competitors, I'd love to talk to them offline.

BTW, the biggest problem for most speed skiers isn't getting hurt falling. Its the bad burns you get. Going that fast with a rubber suit on, you slide very fast if you fall. The friction burns your skin very badly. You hear stories of guys leaving skin stuck to their suits when they get them off.

[Mike Tokar]

First of all, thanks for starting a great thread.

Second - Chubz, your reply was hilarious.

Catching an edge is a huge concern. The hardest thing I found about doing speed runs is keeping the base flat and trying not to get hooked up on the tail, which leads me to think that a board with a lot of taper and not much sidecut would be ideal.

Anyone remember the Burton Express? It was a practically straight board.

Carving is great, but cruising at high speeds is fun too. I think I may like it better actually. It's easier on the legs, doesn't take as much skill, and having a few extra pounds is an advantage! ;-)

MT

[NMU Alpine Boarder]

This subject actually entered my train of thought recently.... Coming up in 2 weeks my local hill has a "Speed Weekend" with both a Downhill and Speed Trap events, both of which I'll be running. I'm curious as to they style of boards that are used here. I'd assume nothing shorter than 220?

[Guest Randy S.]

The only person I ever knew who did this used a 230 or 240cm monoski. This was back in the spring of 1987 in France. He ended up with his arm in a sling that evening after air got under the board and he went through the timing lights at around 110kph.

Seems to me that a monoski might not be a bad choice. The ones I've seen lately appear to have little sidecut and some amount of taper (but I haven't inspected them very carefully).

In the picture above, he appears to have very little toe/heel lift, but some sort of lifter plate under his bindings. Tell us more PhilW.

[fogsmith]

Hey guys - the current WR - 201k - is held by an Aussie named Darren Powell who teaches at Thredbo, NSW, OZ.

I was honored to ride and compete with him in Aspen in 1999 at the US Open Red Bull Speed Skiing Championships in 1999.

Speed boarding is quite a rush and I can assure you all that we do not use releasable bindings - unless these are something new I am not aware of.

Not an event for every rider but certainly exciting.

Best to all and as we say in the speed game - "to turn is to admit defeat."

Jeff "Fog" Smith

Vail, CO

[philw]

The boards for the "professional" class are custom-built. Lengths looked like 2m or so to me, but I can check later. The bindings of the same class (not yet FIS but they're working on it) are releasable - there's a sort of lug in the middle, some ball-bearings under spring pressure, all that stuff. The riders mostly used Rachlie/Deeluxe boots.

There's also a "production" class, where you can see people using F2 bindings (non releasable) and production boards. Here's a guy on a Sims Burner (you can read the logo on the original).

Randy

Sun Peaks: there is an FIS event there. I somehow doubt they'll fund me to visit with my camera, but you never know. I was describing the place to the Euros. I do know the FIS secretary for this if it helps. My email address is either in the Bomber profile or my web site has it wigglesworld. Mail me and I'll connect you to those guys - I don't have their addresses yet but I will when they see their pictures.

The thing which looks like a riser on Peter's board is I think the releasable binding mechanism. He told me the make but I forgot it (not a big name manufacturer). It's grey and about 2cm thick.

Falling: I was reminded of solo rock climbing. You don't want to fall. Peter B (the guy in white & blue who won this event) has only ever fallen once. This event only one guy fell, and it was right at the bottom of the deceleration area. He cratered big time in the safety fence, and he must have been going much slower than the peak. Scary. Body armour is worn by regulation.

Catching edges: they ride with rounded/ blunted edges for this reason I think.

Fogsmith

In the professional class in Europe, releasable bindings are mandatory. I'll post a close-up of one once I'm done with the rest of the images. They have a bunch of FIS approved rules including this, although the sport (snowboard speed) isn't an FIS World Cup sport yet.

Record-wise you need to pick your course, I'm told. Courses like (say) Les Arcs are designed to go to about 250km/h on skis. They're much longer than the Goldeck course and smoother. But the competition still works at slower speeds, I'm told.

[fogsmith]

The Euros competing in Snowmass were using 214cm custom boards with vert little sidecut, no camber, and low-profile noses.

Once again, as far as releasable bindings there were none - all the bindings I saw were Burton race plates.

Tried to find a clause in the FIS rule book regulating the use of releasable bindings but did not locate any references.

Go fast and take chances,

JJS

[philw]

Cool - I was talking to the Secretary of the FIS Speed Ski Committee when we discussed this point, but I must have misunderstood. I have photographs which show that the "professional class" racers at this FIS World Cup event *did* use releasable bindings (the "downhill" class is explicitly different). Whatever, I must be mistaken if you've checked the rule book.

Can you point me at rules? That will save me having to check with DT. I don't want to ask him to confirm if it's right there in the rule book for all to see. I'm putting together an article on this so I do need to get my facts straight.

[fogsmith]

Certainly - here it is...

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/rulesandpublications.html

[philw]

Yeah, I already checked those but they don't appear to cover snowboard. I know that it's not a World Cup sport, which may be why it's not there. But I know that the Secretary of the FIS Speed Ski Committee and Peter Bittner were both involved in writing the rules, so perhaps they are correct. Maybe the American event wasn't FIS homologated?

I'll have a beer with the sec in a day or two and check.

[Guest Randy S.]

Hey Phil,

I've spoken with the guys in Sun Peaks twice (two years in a row) about whether they'd let me do it on a snowboard. Been turned down both times. They say it wouldn't be safe for boards because of the outrun/slow down area???

I doubt I have big enough cajones to actually be a threat in any international competition, but I'd love to do one just to say I'd done it. I have a friend who I snowboard race against who has done speed skiing comps in Europe. His name is Dave Vaille, and he lives in Truckee, CA (home of D. Rahlves). He's got the full rubber suit, giant skis, penis-head helmet, etc. I think he's done competing now though. The trouble with the competitions is they take weeks. Often they just sit around waiting for the right weather to compete. The sitting around can last weeks. I'd love to try it, but would probably do it in the "production" class since I don't really want to buy a board just for that. Although I might get Sean to make me another 2m+ board with a lower nose.

This is a great thread. I'll check out your web site later today. Maybe next season I'll talk myself into going to a competition. I'll probably get an FIS license anyway since you need one for certain events and they aren't that expensive.

Randy

Speed doesn't kill. Its the rapid decelleration that'll get you.

[Hagen]

Phil,

I just checked out your web site - great pictures! ...can't believe on what gear some people go down that run...

Hagen.

[Guest Randy S.]

Phil, I just looked at your site. Holy $hit. Some nut job did the course on a swingbo wearing hiking boots! Are you kidding me. How fast did he go? That's nuts. Post up one of those pics.

[philw]

Ah, you spotted the nutter in the Swingbo. There was also a world-record set for airboards (like an inflatable body-board) and another nutter riding a kid's shovel at over 120km/h, plus a guy on Figls!

Here's the swingbo:

The shovel guy's second and third shot here.

The Figl guy is first shot here.

I don't have the final (faster) results, but the practice times were:

snowboard: 129.96 km/h

Figls: 131.29 km/h

Airboard: 120.4 km/h

I can't find the time for the Swingbo guy but he was definitely up there with everyone else. As I said above, this is a technical course so the pro skiers were doing about 150km/h only in practice.

I roped down the start and it was stupidly steep, even for a raceboarder. The slope was iced by the local fire brigade.

[philw]

Originally posted by Randy S.

I've spoken with the guys in Sun Peaks twice (two years in a row) about whether they'd let me do it on a snowboard. Been turned down both times. They say it wouldn't be safe for boards because of the outrun/slow down area?

[...] The trouble with the competitions is they take weeks.[...] I'd love to try it, but would probably do it in the "production" class since I don't really want to buy a board just for that. Although I might get Sean to make me another 2m+ board with a lower nose.

Snowboarding isn't World Cup, but on this course in Austria they were happy for Snowboarders and others to run. I'll get hold of Peter Bittner's contact details in due course - perhaps he can help. Otherwise I'l talk to the FIS sec about Sun Peaks. He was very much trying to get speed snowboarding fired up (he and Peter B explained that they had been "writing the rule book" on it). Perhaps there's a way to approach it which would keep everyone happy.

This comp took two days, with no entry fee and free food, beer and I think accommodation for the competitors. The wind is measured along the course and has to be less than 15km/h cross or something like that.

The "production" class was invented precisely for the reasons you suggest. In practice and on this comparitively slow/technical course the fastest "production" guys were up with the "professional" guys in practice. It's just as speeds increase that the fairings and stuff make more difference.

I looked at it on my Donek FC1 and wimped out when I saw the steepness and computed the cost of the cameras I was carrying. But it would be interesting to start low and work up until you ran out of bottle.

[Chubz]

Looking at some of those pics of guys on a shovel and tubes make me grit my teeth. Woudl the tube experience enough friction to "blow" like the speed suit? I guess not.

[Guest johann]

Didn't you do a bunch of events at windham(hunter?). What did you end up getting clocked at?

When is that weekend there anyways?

[Mike Tokar]

Hey Johann!

I don't think they had it this year, but I did it 2 years ago and a few years before that. I only got 3rd in the snowboard and bike events, (66mph on board and 56mph on bike). They had it on a mellow NASTAR hill, but built up a nice little starting ramp to get you going.

Last year they moved it to a better hill and I think one of the boarders finally broke 70mph. Nothing like the "real" races being talked about here, although it was organized by a guy from Japan named Naga, who apparantly held the 3rd fastest time on skis.

It was a lot of fun, the atmosphere was really more like a festival than a competition. Everyone was cheering each other on, rather than trying to assert dominance.

The hardest part about the board run was not getting the tail hooked up. The hardest part about the bike run was stopping. I made my mark in those little orange fences after each run.

Another positive thing about speeds runs is that it takes a lot less energy than that carving stuff!

MT

[Guest johann]

so, what kind bike did ya use?

[Mike Tokar]

with a "Lefty" fork. Some guys with normal 2-fork bikes made fairings. Not possible with the Lefty. I didn't even want to look down at it when I started riding the thing because it was a bit distracting, but it's pretty strong.

Some guys had really good Intense downhill bikes, but the course is so smooth suspension isn't even an issue. I think a good start and a good tuck are more important. (not to mention the mandatory coconuts)

MT

[jp1]

Mike, you are certifiable, 56 MPH on a Mtn. Bike in the snow?

That's wild, heck I get nervous at 62 MPH on a Roadie (on pavement) !

66 on a board ain't nothing to sneeze at either!

[Mike Tokar]

I get more scared on a road bike. I don't trust the skinny tires, and pavement hurts like mad.

The guys in Phils pictures are the real men. There are probably women in those events that also qualify as "real men", and I don't mean like genetically altered East German swimmers.

MT