Are these the best instructional videos for racing?

[gdboytyler]

There are a lot of instructional videos on the web for extreme carving.  Not so much for racing.

 

Marc Cirigliano's YoutTube channel, https://www.youtube.com/user/mcirigliano52/videos,  is the best that I've found so far.  I don't race so I don't know if his advice is valid or not.  His advice seems good to me.

 

His explanations on drifting a turn, entering a gate early or late cleared up the subjects for me.

 

He's got 15 videos on race technique.  Here's the first one,

 

 

 

The only real critique I have is that he seems to have confused flex and extend in the diagram below.  From the videos, it looks like the racers "flex" or get compressed in the fall line and "extend" their legs in the edge transition between gates:

 

 

 

 

 

[alpinegirl]

Consider all that he offers. That particular video is not his best offering. He has better. His overall text is a valuable resource and worth tracking down. The concept of midweighting isn't the one answer for absolutely all of racing, however its application is far more encompassing in varying blends than any other thing I have pursued personally. I will pull out more in a bit

[alpinegirl]

Videos 5 and 6 give some better visual examples.

When it may appear as though a rider has extended in order to transition they are actually extending to engage the new edge. Nevin Galmarini's guide to slalom snowboard racing (or whatever) may have some of the better examples of this. And you will be able to see variations in timing of the extension relative to the terrain that he is on. The board almost floats from edge to edge.

Marcs videos are a good overview. There are some amazing examples of this ideal in them, however we are viewing human beings snowboarding.

[nigelc]

I too am a little conflicted as what the videos show to me is extension preceding edge change and flex/compression through the apex. ??????

[Beckmann AG]

The only real critique I have is that he seems to have confused flex and extend in the diagram below.  From the videos, it looks like the racers "flex" or get compressed in the fall line and "extend" their legs in the edge transition between gates:

 

I too am a little conflicted as what the videos show to me is extension preceding edge change and flex/compression through the apex. ??????

You are both correct in that what you 'see' does not match what you are told you are seeing.

 

Shiba is doing work upon the snow in much the same way as a power hammer does work on a piece of steel (this is about racing, thus the supercharger):

 

It's a partially inelastic collision resulting in direction change and surface distortion.

If the idea in racing is to conserve the energy in the system on the way from start to finish, this mode of riding isn't exactly ideal.

That many athletes ride in this manner is simply evidence that snowboard racing hasn't progressed as far as it could.

[nigelc]

More elucidation needed

[nigelc]

How about an explanation of what YOU see v what you think you SHOULD see?

[Beckmann AG]

^I see the same thing that you see. His COM goes up at the transition, and drops into the apex.

 

Lifting and dropping the COM requires 'work'. If you look at a race course as a closed loop, from start to finish, there's only so much energy in the system. 

PE=MGH, where M is the rider's mass, G is the gravitational constant, and H it the vertical drop between start gate and finish line.

Lofting the COM or displacing the surface represents 'leakage' from the system. The rider with the fewest losses from S to FL is likely to do better than a rider that dissipates more energy.

Also, if the board lofts the rider, the board carries no 'charge' (think capacitor) and it can't be used to move the rider's feet (think line adjustment) until it recharges. This recharge takes time (equates to distance), and that affects line options, which then affects elapsed time.

So, if the rider can maintain the energy state of the board, while minimizing displacement of the COM, meanwhile reducing the 'work' done on the surface, they should be faster through the course than a rider who is less adept at managing these tasks.

This is not to say that a top rider won't occasionally go 'up'. Rather, that particular movement pattern isn't optimal, which is why you see a lot less of it in WC GS (ski) than you did prior to the Tomba era.

 

Maybe that helps.

Probably not the most lucid, on account of recent dental trauma.

I can try again later, if you need a more complete account.

 

 

 

 

[nigelc]

Ok I will have to study some Liggetty videos. More detail is always better but there is no rush as there is no snow until July. Here I am worrying about WHERE to extend and compress,while all along you are saying that no extension and compression is necessary. ....

[Beckmann AG]

Au contraire.  You do want to flex and extend, but the idea is to do so in a manner that doesn't lift the COM, or create pressure spikes that displace any more snow from the track than necessary to change direction. Ideally the COM follows the shortest path possible, and that means both x and y axes. (let's assume the Z axis is the axis from start gate to finish line).

One way to think of it is maintaining a constant pressure reading between your feet and the top of the board once you get 'rolling'.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Ligety, Shiffren, Hirsher for sure.

Also get a look at L Messi slicing and dicing through the Barcelona defense. If you can't find his greatest hits on utoobe, I'll send over a link.

[nigelc]

So that is closer to what Cirigliano is saying  and closer to the extreme carve push-pull guys? 

[Beckmann AG]

Indeed.

[nigelc]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga-6wy0Nboo

[Beckmann AG]

You'll see a variety and combination of movement options in the following.

 

Ignore any commentary, enjoy the music.

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

 

[gdboytyler]

The compression/extension shown in Cirigliano's videos I think are analogous to pumping on a surfboard. So instead of a waste of energy, it adds energy which increases speed.

The quiet COM that Beckman is talking about seems closer to the technique used by Carve Master Curt in the clip below. However, I don't see any world class racers that ride like CMC. I applaud the riders that are trying to find better techniques, but for the average recreational rider, I say copy what is currently winning.

[nigelc]

"If you look at a race course as a closed loop, from start to finish"  which I struggle with as presumably the rider can add some energy and possibly (I don't know) gain from that.

 

Is there any video of a snowboard racer tending toward the liggetty/shiffrin style?

 

Also does that mean that an exaggerated movement of COM can be an effective way to control speed on steep slopes i.e. pushing the COM uphill strongly on transition?

[Beckmann AG]

^

^

Surfboards and snowboards are not analogs. The rider on snow cannot add appreciably to the system by way of caloric burn.

 

If you believe that skis and snowboards function differently, then you can conveniently ignore the evolution of ski racing over the last 25 years.

If not, then you can conclude that snowboard racing should more closely resemble ski racing, but the athletes/coaches have not yet figured out how to get it done.

That the description does not match the action in your original post suggests that there is a disconnect between knowledge and understanding, and that you might look elsewhere for guidance.

 

The average rider has little at stake, and can do whatever they choose, and be happy with that choice. Time is generally not a factor.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

"If you look at a race course as a closed loop, from start to finish"  which I struggle with as presumably the rider can add some energy and possibly (I don't know) gain from that.

 

A rider can try to add energy by way of selective muscle contraction, but the odds are good it will result in a net loss. If the rider pumps, they have to push against something. If that action distorts the surface they push against (and it will), the question is, did the work done on the snow exceed the increase in propulsion?

Similarly, if you try to skate (on skis) down a shallow grade, it takes very few steps before you can no longer move yourself faster than available 'gravity' will move you. And that's in a straight line. Trying to do similar beyond the first few meters of a race course is a fools errand. (Which does not make you a fool for asking, FYI)

 

Is there any video of a snowboard racer tending toward the liggetty/shiffrin style?

Every so often I'll come across a moment or two where this is taking place, though it looks to be by accident and not by practice.

 

Also does that mean that an exaggerated movement of COM can be an effective way to control speed on steep slopes i.e. pushing the COM uphill strongly on transition?

One way or the other, you have to dissipate energy to slow yourself. This is either friction/surface disruption, or increasing the horizontal component of every turn such that you have time to dissipate momentum. In other words, if you hook the end of every turn, then part of what you gain in the fall line is used to lift yourself back up the hill, and this resolves to an average speed that works out for the best. You can lift your entire body uphill, or just your board/lower extremities, or some combination thereof.

 

I don't think, however, that you'd want to think of it as 'pushing the COM uphill' as that might risk a pressure spike at a place in the turn where the snow is just about to give way.

[gdboytyler]

^

^

Surfboards and snowboards are not analogs. The rider on snow cannot add appreciably to the system by way of caloric burn.

 

If you believe that skis and snowboards function differently, then you can conveniently ignore the evolution of ski racing over the last 25 years.

If not, then you can conclude that snowboard racing should more closely resemble ski racing, but the athletes/coaches have not yet figured out how to get it done.

That the description does not match the action in your original post suggests that there is a disconnect between knowledge and understanding, and that you might look elsewhere for guidance.

 

The average rider has little at stake, and can do whatever they choose, and be happy with that choice. Time is generally not a factor.

 

Relative to pumping to gain speed, surfboards, skateboards and snowboards can be analogous.  When the SB racer extends his legs through the turn, he creates an angular impulse which changes his angular momentum.

 

I would agree that skis and snowboards function very similarly.  However, if the current world class coaches/athletes can't figure out how to make a SB racer look like a ski racer, then it will be even more difficult for a recreational racer/rider. 

[nigelc]

"I don't think, however, that you'd want to think of it as 'pushing the COM uphill' as that might risk a pressure spike at a place in the turn where the snow is just about to give way"

OK that sounds pretty obvious now you say it that way, and thinking about how I ride steeps I do exactly the opposite.

Is there ever a place then for a true "cross over" turn ?

[Beckmann AG]

Relative to pumping to gain speed, surfboards, skateboards and snowboards can be analogous.  

 

A playground swing is a more suitable analog to the surf and skateboard, than they are to a snowboard.

The effect of pumping on a snowboard will be limited to circumstances where the rider is moving relatively slowly. And even then, the gains are more likely to be perceptual than actual. I.e., "I'm doing something, therefore I must be doing something effective".

Given the momentum of the average racer in the average course through an average turn, the notion of ‘gaining speed’ by way of pumping is wishful thinking.

 

 

When the SB racer extends his legs through the turn, he creates an angular impulse which changes his angular momentum.

 

The question though, is whether or not that action creates a net gain, or net loss.

More to the point, Shiba, the rider in the original video, is bouncing himself ‘up’ more than ‘forward’ . Therefore it’s a little specious to claim that he (or anyone using similar technique) is pumping himself toward the finish line.

 

 

 

 ....if the current world class coaches/athletes can't figure out how to make a SB racer look like a ski racer, then it will be even more difficult for a recreational racer/rider. 

 

To the contrary, it’s easier for the recreational rider. (Though I can understand why you would think otherwise.)

In the event that a coach understood the implications of this discussion, they would be smart enough to realize that one cannot simply change the way an established racer rides, not without an enormous amount of time spent de- and re-programming. The average racer cannot take that much time out of their race/training schedule, and even if they did, they would be taking a pretty good risk, as would the coach responsible for that course of action. 

Sooner or later, a younger rider will begin to figure out a better technique on their own, and a smart coach will encourage this, rather than trying to fit them into the existing mold.

Bode Miller is a perfect example.

The recreational rider, by comparison, has nothing at stake if they choose to alter their movement strategy. They have the luxury of trying and failing until they succeed, and the only risk is the cost of their lift ticket and sense of identity.

 

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

"I don't think, however, that you'd want to think of it as 'pushing the COM uphill' as that might risk a pressure spike at a place in the turn where the snow is just about to give way"

OK that sounds pretty obvious now you say it that way, and thinking about how I ride steeps I do exactly the opposite.

Is there ever a place then for a true "cross over" turn ?

 

Certainly. Crossover is by nature, the simpler, slower path from edge to edge, so it just depends on the size of the turn you want to make, and how much area you have in which to make it. 

 

And also when it’s the last available option.

Blue to red @ 3:04

 

Also @ 2:24,3:58

[nigelc]

I note that the scr of gs skis is a mismatch for the course. Pgs courses are considerably tighter. Is there a greater mismatch between the gs snowboards and the courses. And in this Era of progressive screen has anybody experimented with a board that will carve all the way down the course? Is that even possible?