Fleaman Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I use a file guide that slides on the file and raises it one degree on the base. I also use it on my DMT diamond stones (4") I was just wondering if my file is quite a bit longer and the file guide is further away from the edge, do the two tools work at different angles? For instance with a file, the guide is approx 8" away from the edge, and with the diamond stone, it is about 3" from the edge. If they produce different bevels, how do I use my diamond stones to hone the 1 degree bevel made by the file? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelP Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I'll use the Beast as an example here. The Beast has a metal section that slides on the base. The thickness of that (the lift of the file) is what sets up the edge angle. The idea is that the file cuts until it gets to the base and then you have your degree set. That all works fine and dandy as long as your base is flat because the angle is set off your base. So if your file and Diamond are both resting on that then it is the same no matter how long they are. The angle from the metal lift is the same. Be sure to put pressure on top of that metal slider and the file hanging over the edge. do not bend the file or you'll get more angle. that all said another thing to think about is that the file cuts and the diamond polishes. So in reality the diamond does not need to go in the tool. It helps but isn't mandatory. You can by hand just polish the edge by using your thumb on the diamond and pushing against the edge. The diamond will follow the edge and not cut anymore because it isn't a cutting tool. You can do this on the hill at any time too by running your diamnod along the edge faces if you want to to help keep it polished. I am also taking for granted you are not using a super coarse diamond. Any medium diamond will work good. It can get more complicated but this is the basics of a good edge. Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 That it does not make a difference seems to go against the rules of geometry. If you use the guide for both tools at 3 inches from the edge, then they would be the same. I don't know what bevel that would give you though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 The file guide has an angled support. That angle is the same no matter how far the tool is from the edge, unless the base isn't flat. If you were starting with a flat edge, the initial angle of the tool would be different depending on how far away you are, but as you remove the material the angle will increase until the file is resting completely on the support and then the edge angle will be the same as the support angle. See the below crude picture for illustration. Note that how far away you are does determine how much of the edge gets filed, but the angle stays the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Yeah, I was not thinking of that kind of guide. Good call. What kind of guide do you use Fleaman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I've got some cheapy Kuu thing that I used to use for the side edges but I wanted to do base bevels too. I had a look at Reliable Racing and added up all the prices to do it "right" and said, to heck with it and ordered one of these off ebay for $US35. You can get them direct from the seller for $US57 but as they auction them off for cheap all the time why pay full price? Anyways, hasn't arrived yet, we'll see how it works. If I rode hundreds of days/year and had a huge quiver I would have gone for more professional tools, but seeing as Bruce says he just uses a file with some tape wrapped around one end I figure I can make this work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelP Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Note that the base is just done the one time you grind it or when new. After that doing anymore to the base will not do anything unless the base is lowered to the edge. You would have to bend the file and give it more angle. So for touch ups you just do the sides tho get it sharp again between grinds. So the side tool is actually what you use more often. Hoepfully we do not grind often ;-))))). Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Originally posted by JoelP Note that the base is just done the one time you grind it or when new. After that doing anymore to the base will not do anything unless the base is lowered to the edge. You would have to bend the file and give it more angle. Yeah, Bruce sends his boards ground flat. I contacted the local shops about doing base bevels and the reaction was "huh? what dat? we grind! grind good!" So a tool investment was in order... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelP Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I just got my 2 new boards from Bruce 2 weeks ago. the grind is perfect!!!! he had a 1/2 deg on base and I put my own 3 deg on the side and then polished both bottom and side up to a 600 stone, like a mirror. My Prior 4WD had a basic finish so I did bring that in for a grind...major better. I am lucky enough that I live just outside Aspen and bring my boards up there to the same place Klug has his ground. Once I have a 1 deg bottom they need no further bottom work other than waxing and then I just polish the sides every 2 or 3 days use. that keeps them buffed. I never touch the bottom again after that. I left Bruce's boards at 1/2 to try and it works fine so I've left them alone. once you get the bottom then there is no need to do it again. that's why lots of people use the tape method over the file because they do not want to invest in something they will not use much. but you have to be careful with the tape and be sure the file/tape stays the same distance away from the edge. If the tape moves closer or farther away from the edge then you have a different angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Really, it's a half-degree? I haven't checked - he told me it would be flat. I was considering putting a half-degree between the bindings and one degree on the tip and tail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelP Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 The base, p-tex, as hard as it is is not as hard as the edge so it is almost impossible to get perfectly flat, the base does compress while grinding and even expands from the grinding heat. there is always heat even though it is drenched in grinding fluid. 1/2 a degree on an edge barely fits a human hair thickness so it's really no big deal, at least for me. I usually like a bit more so that if I put on the brakes for some reason and when I do, hopefully rarely, have to slide the base in traffic or at the lift etc etc then the edge is at least off the snow a hair. Also the edge in reality is much more slower than the base. that is why a downhill racer has his edges so they are not in contact with the snow when running flat on the base for glide. So edge angle off the base is good, but to much is bad. Plus we, or I, are usually high on the edge and when I switch I am over to the next edge so fast that it doesn't matter between 1/2 or 1. Slalom racing is a different animal so maybe there as flat as possible. I used to tune WC skis and to get perfectly flat bases we even froze the skis then went direct to the grinder to help minimize the compresion of the base....stupidly anal...but every.001 counts on the clock!!!!. Then you have to finish grinding by going lighter and lighter on the grinder pressure to get base and edge level. Then we were almost dead on...lot of work... Maybe others have found other ways to get 0 flat but my eperience has been there is always some deg of base bevel off the grinders. I found Bruce's boards were near 1/2 deg with my tools. The 1/2 deg bevel caught in a few places lightly but the 1 deg bevel wanted to slightly cut so I stopped. Try keeping your bottom bevel consistent, I think the edge will cut better by following through smoothly. If you want sharper just add more side edge bevel but keep that consistent too. The most important part is really the polishing. We used to have magnifying glasses to check the polish. Little edge grooves left behind do drag. A dull but highly polished edge will cut better than a sharp and burred edge!!! have fun playing with your edges Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Mine both seemed to be about a half degree as well, based on the fact that I ran a half degree beveler on one and it was like doing a maintainenece tune and a one degree on the other and it took a little more metal off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted February 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I use the 1 degree file sleeve that came with a KUU file. So if I put it closer to the edge, I will get more bevel and further away, less bevel, is there any way to find out the right distance to keep the sleeve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Hey Fleaman, I don't know the answer to your question - and for that I am sorry. Isn't it funny how quickly people underestimate your intelligence when you ask a question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted February 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I dont think so, I did learn something in this thread, so for that I am greatfull. Neil's diagrams answered my question. Upon further inspection of my guide I now know how to use it and now it makes more sense. I found it hard to convey my question in writing. I am more of a show person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I know a guy that uses a guide that is just a slip on sleeve that does not have a bevel. It just lifts the file a little bit. That is what it sounded like you were talking about. So you are saying that there is a built in bevel? Sorry for getting smart guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted February 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Here is a description of the bevel sleeve, I thought it was like you described but it has a one degree bevel built into it. I will work like Neil's diagram described.(Thanks Neil) Base Bevel Sleeve Sorry for getting smart guys. I wasn't really sure what you were getting at in the other reply. But it's Ok, Fleaman has big shoulders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 I figured that you had the kind of sleeve that did not have a bevel built in, but just raised the file. In this case, moving it closer to the edge would give you a higher angle. Many times when people ask questions, they are given answers that do not pertain to their question. That is what I thought had happened here. Since you thought that moving it closer would make a difference, I thought that you had the cheap sleeve. Apparently you had the one listed above, and my assumption was wrong. I was not ribbing you, but the other guys - and they turned out to be answering your question correctly. I was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted February 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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