How to bring a never-ever to the sport?

[Unicorn Poop]

A friend of mine wants to get into hard booting next year, and has never been on a snowboard or a pair of skis before. He races motorcycles and is very mechanically and analytically minded, and I have little doubt he'd catch on quick. However, I'm a bit stuck on how to start him out. My plan was to throw some plates at relatively low angles on a junk Burton 151 freestyle deck I have laying around and let him use that to learn how to do the basics- skating, turning and stopping with a foot on the stomp pad, getting on and off the lift, floating leaf, linking skidding turns, ect., and once he's able to make some basic carves, move him on to my Kessler 1.68 until he buys his own board.

I've taught off and on since '96, so I have a solid lesson plan, but it's always been on soft boots, and I'm unsure if I should start him out in soft boots or hard boots. I know the softies would be a lot easier initially, but generally speaking, if someone starts in hard boots with the intention of staying in them, is the curve more linear since there's no soft to hard boot transition period?

Those of you who've been down this road, what have you done and what has worked?

[dingbat]

I've had some experience starting people with a skiing background on hard boots. I think you can do it without much issue even for a complete never-ever. The soft freestyle deck isn't a bad idea, at the very least, use an all mountain shape if going with an alpine board.

I think the real key is as soft a hard boot as you can get your hands on to start. Try setting the front up around 50-55* and the back 25-35*. That lets you get some leverage off the front boot for heelside work, while still being able to use the back foot to skid around without too much awkward contortion.

Good luck.

[Hilux]

My wife started in softboots for a couple times out and hated it. She was getting the hang of it but found it awkward and she had a perfect setup for her. We sold her gear, I bought her some used Blax (softer HSP) and put her on my Oxygen Apex 165 (medium flexy) and she caught on sooooo quickly. Her atheltic capacilities are also very good, can skate circles around me, recently also picked up downhill skiing again (the edging thing can be transfered someone from skating) and just has a good sense of balance/awareness. She felt so much more comfortable in hardboots and it showed.

I came from skiing and went straight into hardboots. Tried softies for two runs after being in hardboots for a season and didn't like it. Have never had the desire for softboots so I was determined to make hardbooting setup work and consider myself a solid intermediate now. I wanted to hardboot and carve, period. As others will probably agree, the best thing for learning is to just get out and ride on your setup as much as possible, and get familiar with it.

As for teaching, we are very fortunate in my area to have someone with the patience and passion to teach newbies. He's got a level 2 for softies and much of that I believe has transfered over in the early stages of learning. Hope that helps!

[Jack M]

With no experience in either skiing or snowboarding, I would say have him spend a day on skis first. Familiarize him with the whole process of going skiing, and the concepts of hard plastic boots and using sidecut to turn. It is stupid-easy to get a pair of skis to carve on easy terrain. You just stand there and weight the inside edge of one ski. If he knows how to ice skate he may not even need to be told this. Carving is not beginner-friendly on a snowboard, because you can't just stand up without first knowing how to snowboard at a basic level.

So then on the next day teach him how to snowboard. You can start him on hardboots, that's really not an issue. But you will first have to teach him the never-ever basics you listed, and then you can introduce carving. Attempting carving without knowing how to break into a controlled skid is dangerous.

Unless of course he is determined to snowboard in hardboots from the get-go. Determination goes a long way. In that case I would definitely say skip the soft boots. No need.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Jack Michaud

[crucible]

"I know the softies would be a lot easier initially, but generally speaking, if someone starts in hard boots with the intention of staying in them, is the curve more linear since there's no soft to hard boot transition period"

This has been my experience...As someone who started in hardboots in 1987, and who has tried softboots on and off since the 90's, I find that committing to hard boots from the start makes the learning curve much faster.

As someone mentioned earlier, the secret to learning quickly on hardboots is to start on the softest flexing hardboots possible. I also find that having boots equipped with BTS also makes a big difference.

[Unicorn Poop]

Thanks, guys. Hard boots it is. The question then, is which boots are the softest? My only experience has been with Head Stratos Pro's, and I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that they're one of the stiffest out there. However, with the application of BTS and strategic shell cutting, would they be soft enough? He's the same weight as me- about 170 lbs. My boots are stock, but I plan on cutting the shell and adding BTS over the summer to see what the big deal is. :) Would I be correct in recommending a stiff boot and using BTS to tune it down so that as he progresses, he can use stiffer springs to keep the boot in line with his skill?

[michael.a]

However, with the application of BTS and strategic shell cutting, would they be soft enough? He's the same weight as me- about 170 lbs. My boots are stock, but I plan on cutting the shell and adding BTS over the summer to see what the big deal is. :) Would I be correct in recommending a stiff boot and using BTS to tune it down so that as he progresses, he can use stiffer springs to keep the boot in line with his skill?

+ use the orange tongue, not the black one, in addition to the shell/spring/ankle pivot/shell thinning mods

http://vimeo.com/54657654

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1034&start=270

Sure, later on you can start stiffening up the boots using different springs, harder tongue, and Booster straps. That's pretty much what I did until I progressed to wanting very stiff boots. However, considering that HSPs are not in production anymore, Id recommend starting out in some old Raichle boots (the softer ones), and if need be, modify them.

Edited January 23, 2014 by michael.a

[dingbat]

More skill does not equal stiffer boots. Boot stiffness has more to do with what type of riding, what terrain, weight, and strength. Strength and skill often go hand in hand, but not always.

While cutting and adding BTS makes a huge difference with the HSPs, in my opinion, they are still too stiff to be ideal for your purposes, especially for a 170lb noob. This opinion is coming from a 200lb moron who owns and has ridden cut HSPs with BTS. Of course, if it's what you got, I wouldn't not try it, just take it slow and easy at first.

I'd look to some of the softer SB series boots from Raichle/Deelux like the 324 if they are available to you.

[Beckmann AG]

I've got a friend who's a big fan of John McGuinness. Mind you, he's never ridden a motorcycle, moped, or even a bicycle. He knows how to snowboard though, has a head for figures, and knows his way around the Youtube.

Should I start him out on a CB175, or maybe just go straight to the CBR1100RR? (He found a good deal on a 'scratch and dent', and that's what he wants to ride anyway)?

Maybe if I lower the tire pressure and use low-octane petrol? Maybe wrap some foam pipe insulation around the pegs and grips?

-----

UPoo,

Your intentions are good, and no doubt your friend may be a singular talent for whom this should be a cake-walk.

Respectfully, it doesn't read like you have a full wrap on all of the variables that will lead to either success or failure of this endeavour.

Start him off on soft boots, on a directional cambered board, with sensible forward angles (on both feet) and a sensible stance width. He'll have some leeway to make the necessary mistakes, and you'll be operating in a familiar instructional context.

If he finds it too easy, that ease will keep him on the throttle, which is a preferred learning mode.

Explain carefully the distinct similarities between inducing a lean angle on a motorcycle, and inducing lean on a snowboard, complete with geometric assessment of the respective steering axes, and you'll come off a hero.

Quite often the learning curve on hard boots goes off into left field; on account of misunderstandings, misinformation, and habits formed of a desperate need to avoid tipping over at the wrong time.

There should be no significant 'transition period' between carving on soft boots and hard boots, unless the approach to either is flawed.

Good luck, regardless.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Beckmann AG
spelunking error

[Unicorn Poop]

Thank you for those links, Michael. That saves me some googling. :) I do use the orange tongue.

Dingbat- that's sound advice. I started out on HSPs, so my boot experience is pretty much non- existent. They definitely worked against me for a long while and there's still some times where they bite me, which is one of the reasons why I want to do the mods and install BTS.

[Unicorn Poop]

-----

UPoo,

Your intentions are good, and no doubt your friend may be a singular talent for whom this should be a cake-walk.

Respectfully, it doesn't read like you have a full wrap on all of the variables that will lead to either success or failure of this endeavour.

Start him off on soft boots, on a directional cambered board, with sensible forward angles (on both feet) and a sensible stance width. He'll have some leeway to make the necessary mistakes, and you'll be operating in a familiar instructional context.

If he finds it too easy, that ease will keep him on the throttle, which is a preferred learning mode.

Explain carefully the distinct similarities between inducing a lean angle on a motorcycle, and inducing a lean on a snowboard, complete with geometric assessment of the respective steering axes, and you'll come off a hero.

Quite often the learning curve on hard boots goes off into left field; on account of misunderstandings, misinformation, and habits formed of a desperate need to avoid tipping over at the wrong time.

There should be no significant 'transition period' between carving on soft boots and hard boots, unless the approach to either is flawed.

Good luck, regardless.

Admittedly, I'm a relative noob when it comes to hardbooting, especially compared to most around here. I don't try to make any claims beyond being average given my time on the hill. Motorcycles, though, I do know a thing or two about a thing or two. The part about John McGuinness and foam pipe insulation clicked. That there was the perfect analogy. Thank you. I know now the path that must be traveled. Also, your in- depth analysis of binding and anatomy on your site helped me make some huge strides this year in my abilities. Thank you for that as well.

[Beckmann AG]

^

UP,

You're welcome. That stuff is there to make life easier.

If you need more information, just ask.

[kinpa]

I think soft boots are more forgiving. Greater margin for error. Hardboots are so responsive which we all like for carving, but for a beginner, it might be too much.

I do agree with the determination thing... so, if he REALLY wants to.... go for it!

I've been an instructor for a long time and I have seen so many beginners struggle with the fine muscle control (ie, very jerky movements even in soft boots) which is so necessary in a hardboot setup.