teach Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I would like to become halfway good at skiing (no freeskiing...), partly to be able to still slide when conditions are poor. The hard boots that fit me best (so far) are M29 UPZ RTRs; Deeluxe are just too roomy in the heel (and narrow in the toe box). Does anyone have a recommendation for a decent ski boot with a similar fit? Any ski recommendations (east coast ice, bumps, slush, no powder)? Other advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I would like to become halfway good at skiing (no freeskiing...), partly to be able to still slide when conditions are poor. The hard boots that fit me best (so far) are M29 UPZ RTRs; Deeluxe are just too roomy in the heel (and narrow in the toe box). Does anyone have a recommendation for a decent ski boot with a similar fit?Any ski recommendations (east coast ice, bumps, slush, no powder)? Other advice? If you are going down the "do it yourself" route, I would go to a big chain ski store and spend a happy hour trying on boots, with and without liners (to get an idea of different fits). Ski boots come in a variety of widths. Some web sites give you more info on this than others. I like http://www.levelninesports.com/ as they give the most complete info and have great prices. As you'll likely be ripping carves on skis as well, be aware that as you go wider in the toe box, boot out can become an issue. Also some brands are worse for boot out than others. In my experience, if you just carve, alignment is not an issue on skis. If you want to do more on skis than carving, alignment issues that didn't show up in snowboard boots can become a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 The best ski boot for YOU, will be the one that fits YOUR foot the best. Find a fitter in your area, or close to a local hill & take the time to try stuff on. Don't take advice from an online forum on what might be best. No one else can be in that boot, except you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 The best ski boot for YOU, will be the one that fits YOUR foot the best. Find a fitter in your area, or close to a local hill & take the time to try stuff on. Don't take advice from an online forum on what might be best. No one else can be in that boot, except you. If you have the money, that's good advice. Show the boot fitter some pictures of you alpine boarding, so when you say you are concerned about boot out, he'll believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy12 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Boot-out is rarely ever an issue. Other than that, what Steph said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 While I agree to some extent to what was said about boot fitters, make sure your boot fitter works with more than 1 brand of boots. I made the mistake of spending 3 hours with a fitter in Winterpark that worked only with Dalbello and, believe me, those boots hurt in the store and, while I was there, 3 people came in with painful boots wanting adjustments. I did not take the boots-just the molded insoles.... That being said...I'd look at reviews on epicski and ski review.... My experience has been, for my narrow feet, Salomon fits well. My son has bulky calves and wide feet and Nordica fits him better. Before I go to a boot fitter, I'd at least try on some brands to get an idea how they fit before you do to a boot fitter....the boot fitter molds insoles and liners and stretches the shell. He can't make a boot narrower or wider My Salomon liners never packed out (my husband lost those boots). I bought a pair of Dalbellos that packed out the second day I wore the boots (this was prior to trip to boot fitter). Dalbellos run really big but people love 'em, too-just not me:freak3: As for liner packout, I've seen people rave about the Intuition liner. If my new Salomons ever pack out, I'm going to replace the liners with those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 In my experience, if you just carve, alignment is not an issue on skis. If you want to do more on skis than carving, alignment issues that didn't show up in snowboard boots can become a problem. Politely disagree. If your alignment is off, that means you are not on flat skis. Which also means, no matter what you are trying to accomplish on skis, it will be more difficult...carving very much included in that. Agree w/Skatha in trying on more than one brand for sure. As a fitter myself, I always give the customer 3 options to compare against one another. Each brand will have a variety of boots built to cater to different foot shapes, sizes, ranges of motion and such. There are many things to take into consideration here. While I completely appreciate the desire to save $$, I also see a huge value in a good fit that lasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 What I was mainly referring to was the fact that most of us don't get snowboard hard boots fitted, but don't really notice the alignment issues we might have, or we compensate for it. Just my experience with skis, but with my alignment issues uncorrected, I struggled to skid turns, but never noticed any problem carving because I was never on flat skis (real world carving for fun, not PSIA stuff). Of course this would depend on the specific issue and I think this is maybe only true for alpine snowboarders starting to ski, because they miss out on the normal ski learning curve, and move almost immediately to carving. Now my boots are set up perfectly I can do any kind of buttery skidded turn, but it has not made one iota of difference to pure carved turns. I would agree though, if you are committing to skiing well in all types of turn/terrain it is essential to have any issues corrected. And if you have the money, why not? As for boot out, I have had real problems with it, and having tried many different boots, have found that the design of a boot makes a huge difference. Carving with alignment that would not allow good skidded turns (flat skis). (carving cup photo - speedzilla) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 True about alpine snowboarding boots. We can accomodate alignment issues very easily in many of the bindings available to us. Are both pics you? Nice turns! Im sure that since your boots are set up properly, you don't notice a difference while carving your turns. Alignment issues are felt more in transition, than while on edge. If you have alignment issues that are more significant (more than a degree), you would definately notice a difference in your carved turns, skidded turns, as well as in a variety of snow conditions! Either way, lets not dilute this post from its origin too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Alignment issues are felt more in transition, than while on edge. If you have alignment issues that are more significant (more than a degree), you would definately notice a difference in your carved turns, skidded turns, as well as in a variety of snow conditions! This is very true. At the time of those photos, I was only able to do a locked in, edge to edge transitions, and was not able to easily drift on flat skis between turns. Either way, lets not dilute this post from its origin too much. so back on track Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Any ski recommendations(?) Your weight, current experience, preferred path down the hill? Does anyone have a recommendation for a decent ski boot I've got an 'APP' for that, but not, I think, your email. I would like to become halfway good at skiing... If you only wish to become halfway good, then buy any boot that doesn't cause discomfort. If you want to become more than halfway good, which is to say, effective, then you want to exercise care in making a purchase. Boots with 'dead' plastic, and rubbery toe and heel pads on the binding contact areas, and/or 'shock absorbing' boot boards, will defeat the feedback loop between your brain and your feet. This affects spatial awareness and intuitive sense of 'what goes on down there'. You needn't purchase a race grade boot, but you might consider which manufacturers stand on the WC podiums most often. Don't take advice from an online forum on what might be best. Please disregard everything preceding the previous quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Alignment issues......I adjusted the cuff cant myself with my snowboard boots. My first pair of ski boots didn't have a cant adjustment but the insoles I had molded made up for it to some extent. The bootfitter at Winterpark didn't think cuff cant adjustment was that big of a deal even after I mentioned having no right knee medial meniscus and having 2 screws holding my left ankle together with a permanent post-op contraction medially..... My current pair of Salomons are aligned correctly.... Skiing with no poles.....seeing those pics make me feel better about not using my poles either....:D...except, of course, in the lift line Skiing halfway decent.....depends on what your definition is. I took my first lesson after skiing for a season with no lessons and coming fresh from snowboarding. I also could ice skate so that helped. A lot of what instructors cover with newbie skiers you've already overcome-slipping down a slope on wooden plank(s). If I were you, get some boots, demo some skis, and just experiment. You can always get lessons later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thanks to all the posters. Yes, I should have given some more information: I'm about 190-200 lbs w/o gear, slight experience skiing. I am not very comfortable on skis--they don't feel very natural right now. My interest in skiing isn't anywhere close to my interest in snowboarding, but I'd like to be able to carve nice turns on skis and ride (having fun) in conditions like slushy snow, bumped-up soft snow, etc, when I put the board away. I'll check out the store near me. I am in the habit of not even thinking of going there, as they invariably don't have what I need. Also, ski boots look a lot more gimmicky than alpine snowboard boots--I'm not really feeling up to the challenge of filtering out the hype. Thanks for the tips on what to avoid. I wouldn't have thought about those things. What do you mean by "dead" plastic? I am sure I will have alignment issues! I do even in ordinary shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 What do you mean by "dead" plastic? Some manufacturers, notably Tecnica, use a plastic that blocks much of the vibration generated between the ski and the snow. The effect is that your feet are now 'in the fog' so to speak. Proprioception suffers, and skiing becomes 'mechanical' as a result. The ride might be smoother, but you certainly won't ski any better. Other boots have a much 'brighter' signature. Avoid the gimmickry and look for a simple four-buckle overlap shell. If you know you have tibial curvature issues, you should at least look for movable cuff rivets. Regarding skis, as you anticipate alignment issues, you should look for something without a dedicated integrated binding system. Otherwise, you can't cant, at least not without grinding the boot sole, which is often a crapshoot you cannot easily reverse. A used sporting goods store might have something usable from 5 or 6 years ago. The K2 Axis and Escape series are fine for low speed use, and I think both have a wood core. For hard snow, JR GS skis from Rossignol and Dynastar are rather effective, particularly for learning. Half the price of adult gear, with the same quality construction. The only drawbacks are the upper speed threshold, and the fact that they will sink like the Kursk in powder and deeper slush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 I think of ski carving as just endless heelsides, except you do it both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Posted January 27, 2012 Report Share Posted January 27, 2012 I think of ski carving as just endless heelsides, except you do it both sides. Isn't that funny? I think of it as endless toesides (or more accurately, a toeside turn feels to me like a ski carving). Probably means I'm too front-footed on a board. With respect to the OP's question, I think the fitter's skill, knowledge and familiarity with the product is more important than the brand, as you're getting started. The key is to get shells which are SMALL enough, or progress will really stall at about the level you see most skiers stay at their whole lives. You really should be able to ski pretty well with the boots unbuckled completely. A boot which really holds you whole foot down can make intrusive heel-hold-down add-ons unnecessary. Next most important for me is always to have a cuff structure which really tracks with my leg. My skiing has a lot of range in ankle flex, and if the cuff doesn't come along you get poor response and also shin-bang. In the same area, too stiff a boot will slow your progress down, but too soft a boot can put a real ceiling on it. If you know you're going to be skiing a lot of bumps, go softer. Lateral flex should be essentially nil no matter what. Next most important is the angle of the sole, for me. Too much heel-lift and I'm never in a happy position. Sole canting which angles your whole boot-binding assembly in or out CAN be important, and addresses a different issue than shaft-angle adjusting. The more you ski on ice the more important canting becomes. You'd wait to deal with that until your skiing advanced quite a bit, assuming you're not really bow-legged or knock-kneed. It's rare that you'll find a fitter in a big city as good as those you'll find near the hill. Steph's setup at Stratton (Equipe Sport) looked really good when I stopped in last week, and my experiences at The Starting Gate in the valley and at Great Outdoors near Mt Snow have been successful also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I went to my local ski emporium and tried on boots. They put me in 29.5s, which is one size too big in most shells, in my humble opinion. All the boots were comfy as slippers (red flag raised!), but sloppy in the midfoot/heel. Same problem as Deeluxe snowboard boots for me. I solve that with UPZs and boot-fitting foam but did not find the ski-boot version of UPZs. Then again, they didn't seem to have Lange, and maybe the Lange RS is what I'm after? Sounds like the right shell shape, but without trying it on who knows. The best-fitting seemed to be Dalbello Viper 12s. Anyone??? Maybe in a 28 they'd be OK. I didn't try any Nordicas, either... not sure why. I think the fitter reflexively fit me as a beginner, even though I told him I ride hard snowboard boots so am familiar with some of the issues. He didn't even want me to try on the shells w/o liners, and when he relented, he wanted it with socks and never asked about footbeds (even though he clearly saw the green Superfeet in my shoes...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I hope you didn't buy any of those boots! I'd go to another vendor if there's one available to try on some more shoes.... Superfeet also makes a moldable insole out of cork-my lost boot set up had some of those in them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I just use those big sports stores to try boots on for myself. Specialist ski stores don't normally have all their boots out, and I'd feel bad letting them get a bunch out if I weren't going to buy there. I don't expect a big sports store to have any staff who know what they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 This was a dedicated ski/snowboard shop. But that's an idea I didn't think of and will do--much better with no one to bother me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I am so glad I tele. This alpine stuff sounds WAY to complicated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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