Thoughts on (wheel) edge pressure, sliding, and carving

[Guest]

Interested to see what others think about this. So to start, I have a vague idea of how to EC on the alpine. This year I've really been working on my push/pull technique, and while that isn't dialed in quite yet, I had a few "Ah ha!" moments during the season. Anyways...

when I'm on the longboard and I start using push-pull-esque (arguably you can't really pull the board back to you without bindings) technique, I find that the harder I extend the easier the wheels break loose into a slide. At first I thought nothing of it, and I'm actually working on using the technique to speed check.

But now...I'm wondering if the extra force I'm putting to the wheels that makes them slide out would at all correlate to how the edge would grip, if I was on an alpine snowboard. Could you essentially "get some feedback" on how effective your push/pull edge hold would be based off of the point at which the wheels slide?

Here's my thinking - the force that causes the wheels to slide out actually represents what would be good grip in snow, because you're showing that a ton of pressure is being placed on that edge/wheels.

Timing is a problem, however, as my wheels are sliding at around 7 and even 6 o'clock, rather than 11/10/9 o'clock. Thoughts? Going to setup the tripod today and get some rudimentary video (read: too lazy to edit it nicely)

[Emdee406]

Another factor to consider is also the durometer (hardness) of the wheels relative to the grip available given by the surface. My background is as a slalom skater rather than a longboarder per se. Therefore I am more grip-orientated rather than slide-orientated.

Temperature is also a factor too, as in very warm conditions, a soft normally grippy wheel will mush out and slide like a greased pig, where a harder wheel won't deform and grip like poo to a blanket.

Wheel profile too can decide whether a wheel will grip, slide and go or slide and lock back on.

Technique-wise, it would be cool to see footage as if you are inclining rather than angulating, you will actually be applying lateral rather than downward pressure and forcing the board to slide. It would IMHO be almost impossible, without the use of an inclined bank, to EC on a longboard because where a snowboard edge is embedded in the snow, the wheels are resting on the surface of the ground and therefore cannot achieve the same level of grip.

That's my gut feeling, but I'll give it some more thought...

[tpalka]

(arguably you can't really pull the board back to you without bindings)

I think that push-pull is a bit of a misnomer -- in EC you don't really pull the board back to you, you just allow it to get closer to your body, from the point where your body is max-extended. I think extension-retraction is a better term for this.

That said, with my meager longboarding experience, I use a push-pull type of movement when I'm pumping the board -- but that has nothing to do with EC'ing...

[Guest]

I completely agree with everything that has been said. And my goal here is not to lay out on the road (ow?) but rather to (1) understand, (2) practice, and (3) get the timing for, correct extension-retraction technique for a snowboard. To the point that that is possible on the street, I was wondering whether you could know if you were "on the right track" based upon the point you got the wheels to slide out. The connection being that sliding out meant tons of "edge" pressure, and IF you had done the same on a snowboard that pressure would rather have made you dig in and hold your line.

When I feel good enough to put up a vid I will try (need more full body-armor practicing tonight)

[tpalka]

Sounds cool -- I look forward to seeing the vids. If your aim is practice EC push-pull, then I think pumping would be the best. A bit part of EC'ing is the body rotation, too. I'd work on getting a good timing on doing the transition with bent knees, then extending the legs until you're max-rotated at the apex of the turn, then rotating back while sucking the legs in, so that you're in starting position at the end of the turn. If you take the extension/retraction to be the pumping movement, you'll be in great shape for EC practice on the snow...

See Patrice around 0:18 in this video:

I have a feeling that Emdee406 is the pump master, so he might have better thoughts on how to get there :)

[Gecko]

While I am by no mean a master at sliding I have been adapting my snowboarding skills to my freeride skateboarding...the differences with a skateboards however lie in not just the wheels (and their varying shapes and durometers) but also the trucks.

Before I talk wheels I will discuss trucks in rather simple terms RKP trucks Randals, Paris and the like are more stable and require a lot more input to make them slide than Conventional "Indy" style trucks. This is because RKP trucks turn more the further you lean them. Indy's on the other hand cease to increase theit turning once you pass a certain point and you just get more lean....this give you more leverage to make a slide. This is one reason many people chose to run Indy's on a dedicated freeride boards. All things being equal indy's are easier to slide.

Of course rarely are al things equal which brings my to wheels....there are two basic shapes, round lip and hard lip and two basic urethanes, slidy and sticky. Race wheels have hard lips and sticky thane (Retro Zigs, Venom Canibals, Otang Inheats, Earthwing Smokers are examples). these tend to be more expensive and made from higher quality thane. Then there are the Freeride wheels which have slippery thane and rounded lips (Gravity Drifters, Hesher Snowballs, Venom Sidewinders, Abec11 freerides are examples) they are primarily designed for slide life, and tend to be less expensive (though not always) because you are going to destroy them pretty quickly. Next there are wheels that use a grippy shape but a slippery thane, Sometimes used for racing though more commonly used for highspeed freecarving/freeriding (Divine Touch, Abec11 Classic Zigs & Flashbacks, Phat Deans are good examples) they hold well in turns but are easier to slide than race wheels, basically go fast wheels for people who lack the Skills of a Kevin Reimer. Lastly there are the other side of freeride wheels sticky thane and rounded lips (Retro Freerides Metro Motion, Otang Stimulus are good examples) they tend to wear better than regular freeride wheels are usually more expensive. I'm not a fan of the slide as I consider it choppy though I have a set of Retro freerides for slippery garages....One could quite easily have a single board and a couple sets of wheels and get by in a variety of disciplines

Now sliding requires that you unweight the board, lots of ways to do it but you have to get your weight off the wheels. Hands down slides are pretty easy transfer your weight to your hand and keep the board moving as you feel it slow down get it under you. For standups I like to initiate a turn and then push. the board breaks loose both heelside and toeside controllably and as I slow down my weight transfers back over the board and I rotate back forward to carve away from the slide. 180s and the like require more mechanics but its still unweighting the wheels. Kevin shows the mechanics quite well in this short clip

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/abrMxdJgqVs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

though James puts on clinic in this

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/22212602?title=0&byline=0&color=9e0000" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="

">Raw Run: Gnarbomb</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/skatehousemedia'>http://vimeo.com/skatehousemedia">SkateHouseMedia.com</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Drifting is a different though related thing the difference is in a drift you aren't initiating a slide you are responding to the wheel's loss of traction. How you respond is similar but the setup is completely different and has more to do with line choice than sliding...Brian and Kyle are mostly drifting (with a couple of speedchecks)

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/22382434?title=0&byline=0&color=9e0000" width="400" height="225" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/22382434">Hey Ma'</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/skatehousemedia'>http://vimeo.com/skatehousemedia">SkateHouseMedia.com</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

[Emdee406]

You can see very similar movements here to the Swoard video, obviously a little faster;

There are 3 BOL members on there too!

Towards the end there is some action from a "Hybrid " course which is halfway between slalom and GS. On a full GS the similarity would be more obvious. I'll try to find some.

[Emdee406]

Great post Gecko (that's the name of my board sponsor incidentally! ), but I think is more wanting to carve rather than slide.

Trucks definitely make a difference, for carving the more precise the better... I use GOGs which give me more of an Alpine board response. Ironically a lot of Tight Slalom riders use Indys due to their high angle of attack and maneuverability. Trackers too will make carving easier.

[Gecko]

Great post Gecko (that's the name of my board sponsor incidentally! ), but I think is more wanting to carve rather than slide.

Trucks definitely make a difference, for carving the more precise the better... I use GOGs which give me more of an Alpine board response. Ironically a lot of Tight Slalom riders use Indys due to their high angle of attack and maneuverability. Trackers too will make carving easier.

yeah I have a Geezerized Indy 109 (now 90mm) on my Fullbag Hybrid slalom. I can't slalom much these days as the action still makes my ankle (and the screws in it) light up with pain but that's slowly lessening so maybe this summer I'll get back to cone dodging