BOL Sailors

[KingCrimson]

Who sails?

I know Boris has done some quick little trips here and there..

I've got a 74 Laser, sail number 14565. Still cooks along, dry and fast!

[RideGuy]

I have an old Laser as well and I love it. I have a cottage on Lake Couchiching. Couchiching is a native Wendat word that means "Lake of Many Winds". The perfect sailors lake. :)

[KingCrimson]

San Diego Bay translates to "Water of Many Carcinogens" in the native language of Oncologists.

Do you race it at all?

[softbootsurfer]

Softbootsailer...Sails down the mountain... :)

[Gecko]

My brother and I own Laser # 100595...I don't think it's been in the water in 20 years but his daughters will probably use it next year

[CarvingScooby]

Who sails?

I know Boris has done some quick little trips here and there..

As little as 6 months:eek:

Cheers

RT

[kipstar]

I own and race a Shaw 650 sportsboat, as attached.

6.5m long, sail 3 or 4 people, has a keel, all up weighs 350kg approx (excluding people) and we sail similar speed to a keelboat racer./cruiser leadmine 30-45 feet depending on wind and direction. No cabin. We race with keelboats and multis, we don't sail with dinghies (usually).

This is a day we went out and cruised around; nice warm weather around here.

THis is my brother's (we build them in NZ also) new boat called Moneyshot

[KingCrimson]

Wow! Do you have any pictures of the bowsprit outhaul? That is BIG bowsprit.

And it's super inexpensive! What a cool toy.

I love this somewhat new generation of sportboats that expand on the idea of a ballasted skiff. Much better than the original concept that is epitomized with the J24 and S20.

[Gecko]

Wow! Do you have any pictures of the bowsprit outhaul? That is BIG bowsprit.

And it's super inexpensive! What a cool toy.

I love this somewhat new generation of sportboats that expand on the idea of a ballasted skiff. Much better than the original concept that is epitomized with the J24 and S20.

conversely the J24 was the first truly worldwide one-design keelboat that wasn't associated with the olympics...yes its dated and slow these days but when compared to the Ensign, Echells, Star, Shields and countless other attempts at one design keelboats the J24 is the hands down best for most people. Remember not everyone wants or needs to plane upwind

[kipstar]

well no lead carrying keelboat will plane upwind; this is the quickest/2nd quickest sportboat in NZ (pic attached of the most extreme NZ sportsboat - somewhere around TP52 performance overall, smokes everything including TPs downwind) and it won't plane upwind (huge sail area, 4.5m wide, tiny bulb) - you can read Bethwaite's book on the reasons why; it is to do with centre of lateral area vs. the sail area and righting moment (horsepower) relative to displacement. Basically, the lead on the custard truck is dead weight - on all sportboats the bulb is dead weight because we sail them flat; we need it for when everything goes badly and we tip over in a broach!

I am not so familiar with the J24 as it didn't exist in NZ growing up (at that time NZ boat industry was a bit in advance of the J24 and also there were very few imports back then) but there is a OD fleet now and recently a OD fleet of this little painbox called a Platu, which is basically along the lines of a J24 but from 1991 as opposed to the 80s. Massive OD class though; sadly also dead here in Thailand, there are a few of them all rotting. Once the OD is gone, they struggle a bit as they are so small to race with the majority of boats here which tend to be 32 feet or longer.

To learn how to race keelers OD though, the J24 its a great boat with huge depth in fleets.

But by comparison, this type of boat, is fast out of the box. We plane in 10 knots true downwind; we sail faster and higher than the substantially longer/larger J24, we are a bit more under control in a blow and we can have the mast down and the boat on a trailer ready to drive home very very quick; our rig is under 20kg including all the rigging. For beginners, the asym is dead simple. It's basically what a J24 (IMHO) would look like if you designed it today and made it lifting keel. So you cannot really compare it to 30+ year old designs some of which were truly hard to sail and rather difficult to keep under control (e.g. some of the old quarter tonners in NZ, a very popular class 30 years ago).

Kingcrimson - the bow sprit is dead simple. Unlike skiffs (which have a permanent prodder fixed in place) we have a retracting one. Upwind the prod is inside the boat, and comes back to the trailing edge of the keel about. We then send it out downwind, and that is a single line which runs from the back end of the prod to a turning block mounted inside the bow are about 2 feet aft of the bow then back into the cockpit to a cleat. So this extends the prod out. The kite is tied to the tack line which is a 2nd line running to a turning block in the tip of the prod then down the centre of the prod to a cleat.

So you can control the tack and prod independently.

To hoist, we can get the kite up and set in around 10-15 seconds - we sneak the tack line to a mark that the kite would be to the prod tip if the prod was extended - premarked - that's just past the mast....we then hoist to the mast tip and then we extend the prod which because the tack line is going out and back tacks the tack out with it at double speed (2 purchases).

The prod itself is housed in a carbon case which is marginally larger than the prod, so this means the inside of the boat doesn't fill with water.

Speedwise, we are pretty tiny, but the one in Newport rates about even with a Melges 24 if you know what that is; a boat 1m longer and a lot more expensive/heavier - in NZ the top Shaw (manic) was a lot quicker than the Alinghi guys in their M24, so they never sailed it again; I am sure overall the M24 and Shaw are similar. That's despite the hiking system used on the M24s which is a bit questionable and a whole lot less comfortable....that weight on these boats....it costs money. You get rid of the weight, you can make the sails smaller, which saves weight, which means you can get rid of lead, which means you can make the structure smaller, which means you can sail with less people etc etc. It's the same as the 18s; they used to be 28 feet wide with massive sails in the grand prix era; all those boats are slow by today's standards compared to the current 18s.

That said they look pretty awesome downwind in a blow:

www.shaw650.com

that's the site where we make them. We basically took an existing design, improvde it slightly and mass produce it. We have a few going to USA in 2011 around Feb actually.

[KingCrimson]

Thanks for the bowsprit explanation.

Played around with a J130 that used a true outhaul for the bowsprit, and shock lines to pull it back in.

I have a good amount of Catalina 22 racing under my belt, but for racing the C22 is a joke compared to the J24.

I appreciate the discussion on hiking vs. ballast, quite an interesting philosophy.

Hopefully I'll see some kicking around San Diego!

[kipstar]

yep, I hope so. Great sailing around there.

The J130 is a much larger boat and I am not sure if it planes up or just surfs so the loads on the prod must be far greater.

Our kite is 52sqm; my 90lb girlfriend can trim it in 20 knots for about an hour no problem. Basically the loads drop a lot when planing as we sail to the kite, not to where we specifically want to go; we raise or drop the kite (or use the reaching kite) to assist us to go in the right direction, but these boats with asym kites, pressure is king, so you do what you can to stay in pressure.

The early generation sportsboats used big sails and big keels to keep the boat on its feet. Basically, the southern hemisphere boats like the Viper, Shaw, the Carwadine Stealth designs and a few others tend to use less sail area, smaller keels and a more active crew to keep the boat on its feet. Also, this means the displacement is less, so the hull shapes end up with much less rocker in them - they plane up earlier which is good. But they need to be flat on the planing surface to do so.

If you can handle a sym kite on a slower displacement boat, then these sport boats are far easier to sail; it is like you learned to carve in softboats then get onto a hardboot alpine setup.

Our target boat speeds approx 6.5 knots upwind and in 10 knots or more we aim to do the windspeed, or at worst, windspeed - 1 knot. Basically around 12-14 knots windspeed is where we start getting serious depth in the gusts; the boat we will often be steering through 20-30 degrees downwind as we run into each gust/wave - the aim is stay planing; take chunks of depth when possible, keep the boat flat.

Anything more than 15 I would say we run riot downwind; we have tons of depth and are sitting on 14 knots absolutely effortlessly. Pic attached is in about 18-20 knots; windward leewards; we are sailing at around 160 degrees at a guess, one guy on the leeward side because it is impossible not to plane; boatspeed is around 14-15 knots and we take all the depth we can; typically we are sailing almost the same angles as a sym kite, but doing close to 2X the speed on the similar sized boats, and 1.5X the speed on larger ones.

Ah yes, great fun to talk sailing.

Do you have a thing called an RS100 yet over there? It is a one man dinghy similar to a laser, with wings and it runs a small kite. Looks like great fun.

[KingCrimson]

J130 I'm sure stays firmly planted in the water.

Lasers will rarely plane beating, you usually have to get speed on a better point of sail and then head up. I had it out today, and couldn't keep it flat enough to plane close hauled.

Thanks for the angle descriptions. Do you know if the asym kite was born out of multihull boats essentially outrunning "windbag" style spinnakers? Or was it more just an evolution of cambering jibs more and more?

To expand on how you keep talking about "less is more", what do you gain in going to a Shaw style sportboat over something like a 49er or other unballasted skiff? Obviously the self-righting after a broach is a big plus, but I fail to see advantages beyond that. Bear with me if I'm missing something obvious, I have essentially no experience sailing outside of older style sportboats and one design dinghies.

As for the RS100, I haven't personally seen any. There's a few foiling RS600s, which are cool to watch but from what I've seen they really can't hang with the Flying Moths to windward.

[kipstar]

basically this sort of sportboat:

- you sail with keelboats and other sportboats (rather than dinghies) so here in Thailand (or in Auckland) that means racing at all/racing 5 days a week year round if you want respectively

- it is a 3 or 4 person boat, not a 2 man, so individual crew less critical

- it is very easy to sail relative to a dinghy; as in even 3 people who don't know much will make it around the race course ok; as in I'd say it is easier than a laser to sail it (to sail either boat well is hard)

- it can be taken cruising for a day; it is easy to sail with the pedal off the floor

- it doesn't capsize, and if broaching, it will self right

- you can not sail for a few months, and the fitness levels and coordination required aren't anything like a 49er so you can go straight out and have fun - its less physical than a laser also - which means it is a lot less physical than a skiff

- cost to campaign one is less than an 18, maybe over 5 years similar to a 49er or a brand new 12

- it is much less fragile than a skiff

In short.....its slower and easier/more forgiving to sail than a skiff, and has a ton more space on it plus if you screw up, you don't get wet. Basically, a J105 or J24 or J80, without a cabin (that on these Js are all a bit small to use anyhow) and more speed. This size is close to the minimum you can sail easily in the open sea but all the sheet loads are small. There is a boat called an Open 570 which is just under 20 feet, but it is way slower, a lot of the reason I suspect is upwind it can't get through chop as it is simply too short. Slightly longer and then you need winches and so on so the fun is gone.

The asym kites if you listen to J boat were born on the J105 I think in the late 80s in USA. my guess is they introduced it because it was easier to sail with, and simpler, despite possibly being a little slower.

In NZ and Aussie, they were born in large numbers maybe in the early/mid 80s when the skiffs got so quick they were constantly outrunning the wind and luff on their sym kites; in addition they used such long poles, that it was a battle to get the thing set and gybed; by running a fixed pole, they solved all these issues, and it enabled them to go from crews of 4, to 3, and then in some cases, 2 on the 18s; on the 12s and the R classes and 16s and cherubs etc the same things happened at roughly the same time as the 18s.

In the keelers, NZ's early sportsboats Gorilla Biscuits and some of the Youngs were launched with Sym kites, but quite quickly discovered the same issues off the wind of struggling for height due to the higher speeds they were suddenly doing (20 knots) - so they also went to prods and asyms in about 1988/89? around then.

All the southern hemisphere boats that were light enough were quicker with the asyms, not slower, except possibly in a limited sub planing range; however with the big shoulder running kites used now, this has mostly disappeared. Like on a formula windsurfer, area downwind is king, and can be used to get around the issue of not squaring back the pole. A lot of other sportboats have poles you can square back, but that's not our approach; instead of a stubby short pole which can articulate to the sides and sail sub planing mode longer; we go for max extension and sail area with less weight, to plane up earlier. Ditto on mainsheet adjustment; no traveller, just a bridle so we sheet in (not down) and a powerful vang. Ditto on the gooseneck (a stainless pin sticks out the mast on a universal joint, and slots into a hole in the boom). Ditto on the prod (no support, it is carbon and supports itself). Everything simple and skiff style where possible to stay light.

As for multis, I am fairly sure they went asym around the same time, and yes, I suspect it was basically the kites got more and more useless as the apparent wind swung forward and increased as the boat speeds shot up; they adjusted the kite shapes from there.

Interestingly, we have a seacart 30 here (a very very quick full carbon flies 2 hull tri) and the kite they use looks more like a code zero; it has almost no depth to it at all. Downwind, they are always sheeted in basically, even in very light winds. The cat and the tri in the Amcup recently were both similarly flat kites it seemed, I was even surprised they could carry them at all.

Musto skiff or foiler is the kind of thing that will plane upwind. I am pretty sure an RS 100 won't; bearing away a bit to plane, that's not quite the same. The moths are wild....I used to race formula windsurfers (which are very similar in performance to a foiler) which plane up in about 8-9 knots (using a 11sqm); its great fun going so fast in such a small amount of breeze.

[Arje_Vandemeer]

but when compared to the Ensign, Echells, Star, Shields and countless other attempts at one design keelboats the J24 is the hands down best for most people. Remember not everyone wants or needs to plane upwind

Eh, everybody has their opinion, but I would prefer an Etchells 22 ANYDAY over a J24. I wouldn't call an "Etchell 22" an ATTEMPT at a one-design keel-boat. They are fabulous one-designs...MUCH higher performance than J24 could ever hope to be. I would say "they're not even in the same class"...literally.

Now don't get me wrong, the J24 serves a good purpose in getting MANY recreational sailors into competive one-design keelboat racing....but PLEASE don't put the J24 in the same performance category as an Etchells. That is like comparing a Hobie 16 with a Tornado 20!!

[KingCrimson]

basically this sort of sportboat:

- you sail with keelboats and other sportboats (rather than dinghies) so here in Thailand (or in Auckland) that means racing at all/racing 5 days a week year round if you want respectively

- it is a 3 or 4 person boat, not a 2 man, so individual crew less critical

- it is very easy to sail relative to a dinghy; as in even 3 people who don't know much will make it around the race course ok; as in I'd say it is easier than a laser to sail it (to sail either boat well is hard)

- it can be taken cruising for a day; it is easy to sail with the pedal off the floor

- it doesn't capsize, and if broaching, it will self right

- you can not sail for a few months, and the fitness levels and coordination required aren't anything like a 49er so you can go straight out and have fun - its less physical than a laser also - which means it is a lot less physical than a skiff

- cost to campaign one is less than an 18, maybe over 5 years similar to a 49er or a brand new 12

- it is much less fragile than a skiff

In short.....its slower and easier/more forgiving to sail than a skiff, and has a ton more space on it plus if you screw up, you don't get wet. Basically, a J105 or J24 or J80, without a cabin (that on these Js are all a bit small to use anyhow) and more speed. This size is close to the minimum you can sail easily in the open sea but all the sheet loads are small. There is a boat called an Open 570 which is just under 20 feet, but it is way slower, a lot of the reason I suspect is upwind it can't get through chop as it is simply too short. Slightly longer and then you need winches and so on so the fun is gone.

The asym kites if you listen to J boat were born on the J105 I think in the late 80s in USA. my guess is they introduced it because it was easier to sail with, and simpler, despite possibly being a little slower.

In NZ and Aussie, they were born in large numbers maybe in the early/mid 80s when the skiffs got so quick they were constantly outrunning the wind and luff on their sym kites; in addition they used such long poles, that it was a battle to get the thing set and gybed; by running a fixed pole, they solved all these issues, and it enabled them to go from crews of 4, to 3, and then in some cases, 2 on the 18s; on the 12s and the R classes and 16s and cherubs etc the same things happened at roughly the same time as the 18s.

In the keelers, NZ's early sportsboats Gorilla Biscuits and some of the Youngs were launched with Sym kites, but quite quickly discovered the same issues off the wind of struggling for height due to the higher speeds they were suddenly doing (20 knots) - so they also went to prods and asyms in about 1988/89? around then.

All the southern hemisphere boats that were light enough were quicker with the asyms, not slower, except possibly in a limited sub planing range; however with the big shoulder running kites used now, this has mostly disappeared. Like on a formula windsurfer, area downwind is king, and can be used to get around the issue of not squaring back the pole. A lot of other sportboats have poles you can square back, but that's not our approach; instead of a stubby short pole which can articulate to the sides and sail sub planing mode longer; we go for max extension and sail area with less weight, to plane up earlier. Ditto on mainsheet adjustment; no traveller, just a bridle so we sheet in (not down) and a powerful vang. Ditto on the gooseneck (a stainless pin sticks out the mast on a universal joint, and slots into a hole in the boom). Ditto on the prod (no support, it is carbon and supports itself). Everything simple and skiff style where possible to stay light.

As for multis, I am fairly sure they went asym around the same time, and yes, I suspect it was basically the kites got more and more useless as the apparent wind swung forward and increased as the boat speeds shot up; they adjusted the kite shapes from there.

Interestingly, we have a seacart 30 here (a very very quick full carbon flies 2 hull tri) and the kite they use looks more like a code zero; it has almost no depth to it at all. Downwind, they are always sheeted in basically, even in very light winds. The cat and the tri in the Amcup recently were both similarly flat kites it seemed, I was even surprised they could carry them at all.

Musto skiff or foiler is the kind of thing that will plane upwind. I am pretty sure an RS 100 won't; bearing away a bit to plane, that's not quite the same. The moths are wild....I used to race formula windsurfers (which are very similar in performance to a foiler) which plane up in about 8-9 knots (using a 11sqm); its great fun going so fast in such a small amount of breeze.

I see Nacras flying around with flat kites all the time, it's quite a site to be sailing by the lee, and get passed by a close hauled boat with the same heading. Moths get close to this, but they are in stealth mode, and are long gone before I ever see or hear them.

It's interesting that Skiffs, and not multis caused the proliferation of asyms in NZ. I'm really not aware of the small cat scene down there though.

Arje- The J24 and Etchells have very similar PHRF numbers, with the J24 being something like 80, and the Etchells 78. Hardly a Tornado vs. Beachcat scenario.

[Arje_Vandemeer]

Arje- The J24 and Etchells have very similar PHRF numbers, with the J24 being something like 80, and the Etchells 78. Hardly a Tornado vs. Beachcat scenario.

There are many flaws to the PHRF system, KingCrimson. The ratings are based largely on mathematical data-sets that don't take into consideration so much the subtle variations in hull shape and other hydrodynamics.

The Etchell is a top-shelf, fairly lightweight, very high-performance all-out professional racer. The J24 is a well-designed recreational racer. I have no idea how in the world their PHRF numbers came up so similar.

By the way, I see you sail Lasers. I love Lasers. They and Force 5s are some of my favorite small boats! I truly love boats like the 505s and their smaller cousins, the 420s, but I have always had a special place in my heart for Lasers and Force 5s, due to their simplicity of rig.

Even though I unfairly put Hobie 16s against Tornado 20s, in terms of aesthetics, I actually LOVE the Hobie 16 more than the very fast Tornado. I just love the shape of those hulls. I think Hobie Alter is a genius of design aesthetics, his 16 is a classic and a class-act!

I sail large, very traditional, very full-keel boats, but I ALWAYS jump at the chance to sail a well-designed, quick and light planing hull!!

[KingCrimson]

In watching handicap races, they are similar to the line. The Etchells is consistently faster, but I think it's representative of the PHRF figures. I'd still not call them in a different league.

I watched a J24 DESTROY an Etchells in a match race, but I think the beat up J24 took a lot more chances than the shiny new Etchells! That's my kind of racing.

Something to bear in mind with the Etchells is its considerable size advantage. 22 refers to the wetted hull, which gives us a hull speed of 6.29 knots (using 1.34*LWL^1/2). I think the boat is more like 28 or 29 for the [heavily rockered] hull length. The J24 is 20 feet on the wetted hull which is 5.99.

Using the Etchells like an IOR design boat, excessively heeling it when beating to get a MASSIVE increase in wetted hull is paramount. I'm sure this is why you are surprised by the similar PHRF numbers, as you end up with significantly more "boat" on the upwind leg. However, my guess is the J24 makes up for this on the downwind ride, as it is only riding 2 feet shorter at the waterline, with a 600 pound advantage. This is on top of a shallower hull draft, and a flatter, "planier" bottom.

The above is all speculation, I've never sailed an Etchells nor raced against one so I haven't witnessed where they pull ahead or fall behind.

NOW, to the dinghies. :D

I always wanted to like the Force 5, but I could never warm up to it. In my mind, it's just a beamier, bermuda rigged Sunfish. It's like 20 pounds heavier than the Laser with a 15 sqft sail advantage and a MUCH more sophisticated rig. I've never seen one compete against a Laser, but its PHRF does place it squared behind the Laser at a 95 vs. 91

Going out racing right now, I'll banter more later.

[Gecko]

I believe they are similar in PHRF umbers due to rigging and the increased waterline the Etchells has when it's healed over....that said the Etchells is a 44 year old wanna be olympic boat (better than the Soling or the Starr IMO) that shares more in common with the Shields than anything modern....narrow beam oldschool racer about 50 fleets worldwide

"The International J/24 class has more than 50,000 people sailing 5,300 boats worldwide; is established in nearly 40 countries with well over 150 active fleets; and is still considered the "gold standard" for modern one-design keelboats around the world."

the J24 is 200lbs lighter and has nearly twice the sail area but it's got about 2/3's-3/4's the length....it doesn't point anything like the Etchells but is much more fun off the wind Fore deck on an Etchells is cake in all but the most hairball conditions, on a 24 it can be trying in 15 knots...my first Keelboat racing was on a J24 and I still have a softspot for it I crewed on etchells for a season but I never really enjoy'd it

[kipstar]

It's interesting that Skiffs, and not multis caused the proliferation of asyms in NZ. I'm really not aware of the small cat scene down there though.

Arje- The J24 and Etchells have very similar PHRF numbers, with the J24 being something like 80, and the Etchells 78. Hardly a Tornado vs. Beachcat scenario.

The big multi classes in the 80s were HObie 16s, the top guys raced tornados (which I think were not running kites in that period) and there were various other beach cats, but none that popular.

Most of the development, because NZers and Aussies love to fiddle with stuff, came out of the skiffs/high performance dinghies - there are the javelin and Cherub for 14-18 years old (single wire), the 12s 14s and Rs which are for adults are a 2 main twin wire boat (the 14 being the least advanced/heaviest in most respects other than the foiling rudders), the 16s and 18s for 3 man.

All these plane upwind, and would be an alternative to the olympic classes; the 49er and 29er has been a parasite in some respects on this scene. In particular, the R class which is a NZ only class the same as a 12 but with a sail area restriction is right now probably one of the quickest dinghies around; it is a 2 man kite running foiling twin trap boat which unlike the moth has no rules stopping them from sailing without foils in strong or weak winds.

NZ has had a one man single wire dinghy called a 3.7 designed by Bruce Farr for something like 30 years as well.

All the 2 man boats and the 18s are box rules, so there wasn't really any restrictions to stop them from going to asym kites. They did this in a major way in the 80s, which was probably the same time/prior to NZ seeing a bunch of asym kite carrying cats. Also, all the skiffies in Auckland sailed out of one club with the cats usually sailed in other places (and keelers somewhere else)

this is the foiling R which is lapping the low riders, just like what happened in moths

you can see him just sail right past, this is foiling but marginal planing conditions I guess

Love sailing, just love it.

For me personally, I am steering, and the idea of someone frigging around the bow is not my idea of fast or fun on a sub 25 foot boat.

Fully respect a good bowman, but the modern larger boats are ditching poles and sailing on apparent; the only reason IMHO to keep a sym kite is:

- historical heavier boats designed for them

- cruising boats used for racing which are too heavy to sail with an asym

- rating rules which encourage them (e.g. IRC in sub 40 footers)

The tactics of sailing one vs. the other downwind is fascinating though - the only type of boats I sailed in the sym kite era were all leadmines, so we would just plow our way downwind digging a bigger and bigger hole in the water. Being able to lift off and go, then hunt puffs all over the course.....it's frigging awesome. What a pity I am so bad at it!

[Arje_Vandemeer]

NOW, to the dinghies. :D

I always wanted to like the Force 5, but I could never warm up to it. In my mind, it's just a beamier, bermuda rigged Sunfish. It's like 20 pounds heavier than the Laser with a 15 sqft sail advantage and a MUCH more sophisticated rig. I've never seen one compete against a Laser, but its PHRF does place it squared behind the Laser at a 95 vs. 91

Going out racing right now, I'll banter more later.

LOL...now that is cutting hairs. The Force 5 and Laser hulls are VERY similar, especially at the bow. They have a very similar entry. Their sterns are different, but besides that, their beams and length are within inches. True, the Force 5s ARE heavier by 7 or 8 kilograms or so, but not really sure why, as their hulls are so similar. It cannot just be the weight of a couple more blocks, etc.

I happen to think the Laser should carrry slightly more canvas than it does, as it shares the same sail square area as the Sunfish (7 sq metres or so?).

Given all that, though, the Laser DOES seem to outperform the Force 5 in heavier air. The Force 5 seems to have the advantage in lighter air, according to some who regularly sail both. I've sailed on Force 5s, but in Europe, Lasers ARE much more popular. I think they are an Olympic class now, no? That makes a difference in popularity. Plus the Laser is STILL being produced...I read over 200,000 hulls now! Second only to Sunfish in number produced, and it doesn't seem they are TOO far behind, as well.

Force 5 WOULD still be produced now, but if I am not mistaken, Lasers were produced by Vanguard and when Vanguard bought AMF/Alcort, the manufacturer of the Force 5, Sunfish, Minifish and some boat called the Puffer, Vanguard quickly shut down production of the Force 5, as it was too close in design to the Laser.

In my eyes, they are BOTH good boats, and excellent boats to learn on, given their simple rigs.

Kipstar: Your and your brother's boat seem very fast in light winds!!! What is the hull weight of your boat? Sail area?

My favorite small dinghy has become the 505 and her little sister, the 420.

Nederland is most grand for sailing these dinghies, given the tendency for lots of wind and lots of protected, shallow waters!! Nothing beats the feeling of soaking 4 or 5 sweatshirts with water and going out on trapeze on a 505!!

:1luvu::1luvu:

[skatha]

Hmmmmm...anybody sail a nonracing boat???

Or is that too much to expect on an alpine site?

[KingCrimson]

LOL...now that is cutting hairs. The Force 5 and Laser hulls are VERY similar, especially at the bow. They have a very similar entry. Their sterns are different, but besides that, their beams and length are within inches. True, the Force 5s ARE heavier by 7 or 8 kilograms or so, but not really sure why, as their hulls are so similar. It cannot just be the weight of a couple more blocks, etc.

I happen to think the Laser should carrry slightly more canvas than it does, as it shares the same sail square area as the Sunfish (7 sq metres or so?).

Given all that, though, the Laser DOES seem to outperform the Force 5 in heavier air. The Force 5 seems to have the advantage in lighter air, according to some who regularly sail both. I've sailed on Force 5s, but in Europe, Lasers ARE much more popular. I think they are an Olympic class now, no? That makes a difference in popularity. Plus the Laser is STILL being produced...I read over 200,000 hulls now! Second only to Sunfish in number produced, and it doesn't seem they are TOO far behind, as well.

Force 5 WOULD still be produced now, but if I am not mistaken, Lasers were produced by Vanguard and when Vanguard bought AMF/Alcort, the manufacturer of the Force 5, Sunfish, Minifish and some boat called the Puffer, Vanguard quickly shut down production of the Force 5, as it was too close in design to the Laser.

In my eyes, they are BOTH good boats, and excellent boats to learn on, given their simple rigs.

I have to say, even at 190 pounds, the Laser's 76 square feet can be a handful. I spent the day staring at the underside of my gunwhales I had to hike out so far. No weather helm on the Laser, such a great design. Still had a few dry capsizes, but I could plane around on beam reaches.

Force 5 is still produced, by the way.

Couple of guesses on why the F5 is a better light air boat:

-The sail has a lot more roach, and will hold a ton of camber in comparison to the relatively straight leech on the Laser. Conversely, pointing in higher winds will result in a floppy roach that is providing no lift; this is akin to not sailing "block to block" or with an overly stiff mast. I suppose this gives you the advantage of the sail depowering well, but in my experience, a small dinghy does not sail well on autopilot.

-The pile of extra cloth you have helps as well!

-The higher center of effort because of the sky high boom is probably easier to get over the boat on a run.

Not sure about all the above, only seen one a handful of times. Just my best guesses.

Looking at numbers, the draft is like 7 inches deeper on the Force 5. I'd be curious if this attributable to a longer daggerboard, or the different buoyancy balance caused by the hard chines on the F5.

It may just be that it's an overpowered boat, and heavy winds force too flat of a sail. A fully powered Laser Radial will beat an excessively flattened Full Rig everywhere except downwind. The F5 vs. Laser is probably the same story in heavy winds. I tend to think this is the biggest factor, just from my experiences as a sailor on the upper weight range of "competitive".

The Laser just has the critical mass to keep a hugely active fleet. I doubt there was room for a boat with such large sail area back when the F5 was current, and now nothing can compete with the legacy of the Laser.

In regards to the Laser needing more firepower, there are 180 pound guys who can race the Radial rig and do it well.. I really don't know whether more sail could help. I'm not good enough for numbers to matter anyway!

The tactics of sailing one vs. the other downwind is fascinating though - the only type of boats I sailed in the sym kite era were all leadmines, so we would just plow our way downwind digging a bigger and bigger hole in the water. Being able to lift off and go, then hunt puffs all over the course.....it's frigging awesome. What a pity I am so bad at it!

I love watching an overpowered sym chute boat just beat the crap out of itself.

You might like the articulating spinnaker pole design on the Antrim 25. This is a cabin sportboat, but it planes like anything else.

http://www.ultimatesailboats.com/articulating-pole.html

Hmmmmm...anybody sail a nonracing boat???

Or is that too much to expect on an alpine site?

MANLY MEN RACE. DAYSAILING IS FOR LITTLE GIRLS.

I mess around on Catalina 22s and 16.5s for daysailing, nonracing purposes. What do you have?

[Arje_Vandemeer]

Looking at numbers, the draft is like 7 inches deeper on the Force 5. I'd be curious if this attributable to a longer daggerboard, or the different buoyancy balance caused by the hard chines on the F5.

Interesting question....however, I think due to the relatively small surface area of both hulls, any quantitative differential in bouyancy between the hulls would be small indeed and would only reflect in a VERY small displacement differntial, if any at all, as the actual height between the bottom of both hulls and the top can't be much over 10 inches or so. What's their draft? Like 6 inches, maybe? I can't remember. So any difference in bouyancy would certainly not add up to seven inches. Maybe an inch? Any naval engineers out there able to answer?

Yes, the Force 5 does have a hard chine in the stern, but in such a small boat, I don't think the chine would reflect in the relative bouyancy and thus the displacement. I guess if one wanted to get technical, they would have to determine the displacement of both hulls...ha ha.

So, anyway...no. The difference in draft is attributable to the longer daggerboard on the Force 5. I guess a way to determine would be to float both side by side without their daggerboards.

I wonder how the performance of both boats would increase with the addition of a nice stiff triaxial weave silver racing sail? Might be able to point slightly better....but here too, I think the actual speed difference would be very minor, due to the relatively small amount of sail surface area we're dealing with.

Anyway, I just love sailing ANYTHING with a sail. There is pure joy in moving by the quiet power of the wind. LOL, even a sailing canoe would be fun.

[KingCrimson]

Interesting question....however, I think due to the relatively small surface area of both hulls, any quantitative differential in bouyancy between the hulls would be small indeed and would only reflect in a VERY small displacement differntial, if any at all, as the actual height between the bottom of both hulls and the top can't be much over 10 inches or so. What's their draft? Like 6 inches, maybe? I can't remember. So any difference in bouyancy would certainly not add up to seven inches. Maybe an inch? Any naval engineers out there able to answer?

Yes, the Force 5 does have a hard chine in the stern, but in such a small boat, I don't think the chine would reflect in the relative bouyancy and thus the displacement. I guess if one wanted to get technical, they would have to determine the displacement of both hulls...ha ha.

So, anyway...no. The difference in draft is attributable to the longer daggerboard on the Force 5. I guess a way to determine would be to float both side by side without their daggerboards.

I wonder how the performance of both boats would increase with the addition of a nice stiff triaxial weave silver racing sail? Might be able to point slightly better....but here too, I think the actual speed difference would be very minor, due to the relatively small amount of sail surface area we're dealing with.

Anyway, I just love sailing ANYTHING with a sail. There is pure joy in moving by the quiet power of the wind. LOL, even a sailing canoe would be fun.

Well I'm curious about the buoyancy of the stern on the F5, because much of Laser sailing instruction involves the instructor yelling "SIT NEXT TO THE BOARD!"

This is because you can actually get a lot of boat out of the water by sitting as far forward as possible. If the F5 isn't as buoyant from board back, the boat will be sitting lower in the water, with more drag. This makes a HUGE difference in dinghies.

I find with Lasers, I can sail upwind a lot faster than the lighter folks. This is because I can keep it flatter, but with a lot of apparent wind, you are actually further off the true wind. I think my VMG is still better though. I wouldn't want any fancy sails in the Laser class, I can barely keep up with paying for Dacron! :lol:

Sailing is great... If you want to sail a Kayak, check out the Klepper Kayak with a sail http://www.tropicalboating.com/kayaking/sailing-foldable-kayak.html

Not a great performer, but it's cool and fits in a bag!