Ankle Injury Part Deux

[Bubba]

I am on my second ankle injury in three years and am trying to figure out why this is happening. Am in PT and Sports Med at Mayo and as the vicodin is kicking in my mind is going. A little history....first one I stuffed the nose and kept rotating as I felt my ankle twisting all over the place. Ski Patrol took me in on that one. This time fast heelside, board started chattering out and flopping all over the place as I again felt my ankle moving. Not really any pain, took a break, kept riding. Both cases resulted in high-grade tears in tendons and ligaments primarily on the inside of my ankles. I am in Fire's with the stock liners and ride with them tight. My questions for those who have suffered a similar injury:

1. Are you in a stock liner or moldable with custom footbeds?

2. How much movement do/did you have in your ankle?

3. Is this a fairly common injury for a rec rider? Pro's?

4. If injured, were you told that the custom footbeds/liner would possibly help prevent an injury of this nature in the future?

5. I do not have any congenital issues that I know of...ride bike alot, but do no specific conditioning for my ankles. Does anyone do specific strength training for the ankles to prepare for riding season?

I have been in hardboots for about 20 years and am in softies while I ride with my young kids and while coaching but have never suffered this type of injury while in a soft setup. I am in hardboots about 95% of the time.

Sorry this got so damn long. I am sick of the the couch and another riding season cut short. Thanks for any insight provided!

[vapor]

Seems to be alot of ankle injuries going around. My injury to the ankle is similar to yours, just done in a different way.

While riding steep trees in tracked out heavy snow the nose of the board sliced in and caught while doing a heelside jumpturn.I end up compressing and rotating at the same time while off balance which stressed both the med colateral in the knee and whatever ligaments that keeps the ankle from rotating.

Myself i wear custom footbeds with thermoliner so im not sure how you can prevent this with gear.

[Beckmann AG]

im not sure how you can prevent this with gear

You can prevent this with gear by taking pains to ensure that you can ride with the absolute least amount of tension on your joints at all times. Tension in this case can be either muscular, such as when several limb segments are tied together while working toward a particular outcome; or the result of leverage, such as when the rear foot is excessively dorsiflexed, placing undue stress on the achilles tendon and ankle assembly.

Another example is excessive inward canting of the front foot, which, while it may make a wide stance somewhat more comfortable, will also serve to collapse the ankle joint medially while under load. Inward cant of the front foot, as well as poor cuff alignment, can cause the tip of the board to bite harder than the tail on a heelside turn, which may lead to a nasty speed wobble, the brunt of this may be taken by the ankle if it is not properly supported by the boot.

Quality foot support can help, in that a supported foot will often contribute to a more relaxed posture, and also provide a better 'read' on what is going on down there, which in turn will reduce 'nervous' tension through the lower extremities.

One problem with alpine boards is that it is possible to capture a fairly large amount of energy with each turn, energy which can be damaging, as well as useful. This tends not to occur with softboots, due in part to the propensity for 'leakage' with that interface. With regard to your current injury, Bubba, it sounds like you encountered another situation whereby the board was riding you, rather than the other way 'round.

Set your gear up better, and circumstances of this nature can be avoided.

[vapor]

Setting equipment up to put the least stress on your joints is pretty much a given. I myself have no cuff adjustment and dont run inward cant on my front foot.

Of course there is that whole duck stance thing so that throws that theory out the window.;)

[Bubba]

You can prevent this with gear by taking pains to ensure that you can ride with the absolute least amount of tension on your joints at all times. Tension in this case can be either muscular, such as when several limb segments are tied together while working toward a particular outcome; or the result of leverage, such as when the rear foot is excessively dorsiflexed, placing undue stress on the achilles tendon and ankle assembly.

Another example is excessive inward canting of the front foot, which, while it may make a wide stance somewhat more comfortable, will also serve to collapse the ankle joint medially while under load. Inward cant of the front foot, as well as poor cuff alignment, can cause the tip of the board to bite harder than the tail on a heelside turn, which may lead to a nasty speed wobble, the brunt of this may be taken by the ankle if it is not properly supported by the boot.

Quality foot support can help, in that a supported foot will often contribute to a more relaxed posture, and also provide a better 'read' on what is going on down there, which in turn will reduce 'nervous' tension through the lower extremities.

One problem with alpine boards is that it is possible to capture a fairly large amount of energy with each turn, energy which can be damaging, as well as useful. This tends not to occur with softboots, due in part to the propensity for 'leakage' with that interface. With regard to your current injury, Bubba, it sounds like you encountered another situation whereby the board was riding you, rather than the other way 'round.

Set your gear up better, and circumstances of this nature can be avoided.

Myself along with most everyone else on Bomber, I assume, is quite meticulous about the set-up of our gear including cuff alignment of our boots. I have been on hardboots long enough to know what feels right or wrong. The only thing I have not done is customize my liner and footbed. Never thought it was an issue until now. I do not have inward canting on my front boot. I run 0 on the front and 6 in the rear. It was my rear foot that was injured this time. I think it was the mechanics of both crashes plus boot slop that led to the injuries. The current was a high speed heelside washout with me trying to compensate and maintain the turn which turned bad. I should have just sat down. Which leads me back to what you mentioned...quality foot support. I suspect that this may be the underlying cause of both of these injuries.

[Bubba]

Setting equipment up to put the least stress on your joints is pretty much a given. I myself have no cuff adjustment and dont run inward cant on my front foot.

Of course there is that whole duck stance thing so that throws that theory out the window.;)

Maybe it is because I ride duck in softies that led to it all?

That is a discussion in another thread.......softies that is. :)

[Bubba]

I guess what I am am really driving at with this post is custom boot fitting vs stock liners and this type of injury. In which case is it more prevalent or is it the method of injury or a combination of the both?

Thanks for the info so far....

[Beckmann AG]

Upon reflection, I can see how the last sentence of my previous post could be read as being condescending.

Sorry about that. And also about your respective injuries.

That having been said, without quality foot support, adjustments made to the boot/binding interface are based upon what 'feels right' with a collapsed foot.

Foot splay determined without foot support will often feel wrong once support is added. The same can be said of cant and lift.

It is certainly possible to be precise/meticulous without being accurate. (Or vice-versa?). So while any number of forum members may be meticulous about setting up their gear, there is also the possibility that such efforts may not be truly effective.

Carpet carving, for instance, can be misleading in that it does not account for the dynamic nature of the snowboard in motion. So the posture/configuration that feels comfortable in a static context may lead to untenable loads on the joints once the board 'powers up'. Similarly, a setup that works on the groom may lead to disaster when the snow goes clear or deep.

[Bubba]

Upon reflection, I can see how the last sentence of my previous post could be read as being condescending.

Sorry about that. And also about your respective injuries.

That having been said, without quality foot support, adjustments made to the boot/binding interface are based upon what 'feels right' with a collapsed foot.

Foot splay determined without foot support will often feel wrong once support is added. The same can be said of cant and lift.

It is certainly possible to be precise/meticulous without being accurate. (Or vice-versa?). So while any number of forum members may be meticulous about setting up their gear, there is also the possibility that such efforts may not be truly effective.

Carpet carving, for instance, can be misleading in that it does not account for the dynamic nature of the snowboard in motion. So the posture/configuration that feels comfortable in a static context may lead to untenable loads on the joints once the board 'powers up'. Similarly, a setup that works on the groom may lead to disaster when the snow goes clear or deep.

I did not take what you said as condescending and appreciate your insight. I am just trying to figure out why these injuries happened. Although I have been riding for a long time, whose to say that my set-up is correct? I am no expert nor do I have the time or money for someone to analyze every aspect of my set-up, riding style, etc. I go with what has worked well for me in the past. The sports med dept will be fitting my boots for next season with positive results I hope.

Thanks again.

[vapor]

+1 on getting orthodics. I my self used them long before i even started snowboarding.I used them for cycling to correct a forefoot varus tilt that caused my knees to track off through the pedal stroke.

I can see if your foot isn't properly aligned due to poor mechanics that could put your ankle in a position to be strained.

[figinsguy]

About 4 years ago I was in a hard heelside, lost my edge on a patch of ice in the shade, then caught my edge again during a slide out on my left side. When it caught it sent me over my board doing head to toe somersaults down the mountain. The impact when the board caught its edge again fractured the Talus bone in my ankle. (Not sure of spelling.) They call it a snowboarders fracture. Usually caused by excessive chatter on a heelside. No surgery because it all held together, but had fractures in a few parts of that bone. After being casted up for about 5 weeks, it was tender. Took two years riding slow speeds and quick turns in the trees on softboots avoiding chatter before I would try the hardboots again.

After talking with Fin at Bomber, we are now using the suspension kit (extra elastomer pad under my TD2's) and I have some gel heel pads in my boots to absorb possible chatter and impact. Seems to have helped. Don't know if this info will help in your situation, but may save you from other problems down the road.

Fin mentioned using the BTS kit on my boots to provide some additional give to save my ankles and feet. They seem to be out of them every time I look at the site to order them so I haven't got a report on whether those have helped or not.

[SteveInOregon]

I read the OP and the comprehensive replies very carefully and my situation may ad some clues and probable causative factors to the mix.

My front - lead ankle is fractured

:confused:Could Be Due To:

I had no custom heat mold-able liners.

No custom foot bed.

Boots are sized right, "but" there is not enough what I call "heel hug", to much air space , I pretty much knew a custom liner system would be my next purchase

I have a lot of front boot-toe lift in the front binding.

I have a high degree a tad over over 55 degrees on front boot vs 45 on back .

I has very tired after riding hard all day and the day before, to borrow a quote from above : "The board was riding me instead of me riding the board.

Blue bird day 2pm, weekend, full capacity crowd, soft & slushy, lot of ruts and trenches.

Note: my boots were cranked up tite on all buckles, I like them real tite and then un-clip them on the lift, only to crank them back down before heading down. > I may not need to due this with custom liners<

End Result: > I did a lazy 45 heel side slide to slow down for traffic and the nose caught and slammed to a stop from somewhere about 15 mph or less to a dead stop and then jolting twist with the back end jumped up and swinging around> crunch I could hear it ( obviously feel it ) this was a sudden deceleration fracture.:(

I hope this ad's value to the thread :)

[Keenan]

I broke mine,stuffed the nose and went flying like a rotor. I heard my ankle snap in mid-air. I would advise taking your boot off ASAP. I waited for patrol to sled me down and by the time they tried to pull my boot off my foot had swollen to the size of a small melon. Have you ever tried to put a melon in a hardboot? Taking the boot off was more painful than the actual break.

[SteveInOregon]

I broke mine,stuffed the nose and went flying like a rotor. I heard my ankle snap in mid-air. I would advise taking your boot off ASAP. I waited for patrol to sled me down and by the time they tried to pull my boot off my foot had swollen to the size of a small melon. Have you ever tried to put a melon in a hardboot? Taking the boot off was more painful than the actual break.

Ya I took mine off "immediately" and packed it in snow for the 20 min it took ski patrol to find me, luckily taking mine off was not hard.

So can you advise what you set up was, did you have custom liner system, etc... ?