carving = popular

[kjl]

Also heres some action we filmed last winter jumping.

Bordy:

Good lord that is awesome.

So, I can pop 15 feet or so of air without too much problem on the water - why can't I glide like that (and why don't I see anybody else on the water gliding forever like that)?

[photodad2001]

Photodad,

What a cute little air the guy on the KITEwing does. Is that you? I am quessing you didn't even watch the kite vid since "big air doesn't sum it up"

Here's some more really big airs by myself and my friends

Cool mishaps. Kinda like the big air vid in Hawaii where they are interviewing Tophat and they guy sets sucked up over the beach, then over the parking lot, or the guy in Florida who went out and got overpowered and went flying over the beach onto the road where he was dragged and bounced till he was stopped by a wall. Kite flying lacks a lot of control and brings this image to mind...

Edit: Still can't get images to show up. I've tried changing settings in user cp, edit options, misc. Is there something else it could be?

[tahoetrencher]

or big balls, big falls

Those huge airs look like paraglider hybrids or full tilt paraglider canopies.

Don't try this at home.

P S does anyone else remember the teak mast foot?

circa 1978 if I remember my first ride

[Zone]

ONE: I've searched the intraweb and if you could direct me to a larger forum for windsurfing than this EC forum then post the link.

Great that you're so pumped.

There are lots of forum out there, obviously Europe and Hawaii where the sport is more popular. For example check out (12884 Forum Members)

http://www.boards.co.uk/forum/default.asp

Here's some nice long thread (if you have an Evo 70 for sale let me know!!):

http://www.boards.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16359&PN=44&TPN=1

I'm trying to get into kiting, but conditions around here are not that easy on beginners. The hang time is unbelievable (esp. on those snow videos).

PS: Photodad, try some newer gears, or at least sails/boards/fins from the mid 90's onward, you'd like it even more.

[Bordy]

Bordy:

Good lord that is awesome.

So, I can pop 15 feet or so of air without too much problem on the water - why can't I glide like that (and why don't I see anybody else on the water gliding forever like that)?

Gliding and pop water airs( not true pop unhooked airs) are different the water is on a flat plane so you can only jump from it to it again, but on a hillside the hill fades away in the direction of the landing so as you come to the ground the ground goes away so you can kep gliding into the wind. On water you are drifting down wind while jumping, By sighning the kite hard from 10 till 2 you can prolong your airs but only once you pop about 30 feet plus. Yester day I was rocking about 15+ second airs on water drifting about 200 yards down wind with kiteloops out!!!!

Jesse Richman did a good job of maintaining flight on water by through Heloloops over head in a gust while in San Fran last year!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOwb6sDCZM4

Not very high but long flight time!

[Bordy]

or big balls, big falls

Those huge airs look like paraglider hybrids or full tilt paraglider canopies.

Don't try this at home.

P S does anyone else remember the teak mast foot?

circa 1978 if I remember my first ride

We are just riding regular water kites 13m to 17m. Nothing special! SOme shots on foil kites.

I can glide on as small as 9m but it gets good on 13m or bigger.

[Bordy]

Cool mishaps. Kinda like the big air vid in Hawaii where they are interviewing Tophat and they guy sets sucked up over the beach, then over the parking lot, or the guy in Florida who went out and got overpowered and went flying over the beach onto the road where he was dragged and bounced till he was stopped by a wall. Kite flying lacks a lot of control and brings this image to mind...

Edit: Still can't get images to show up. I've tried changing settings in user cp, edit options, misc. Is there something else it could be?

I think your confused, Eric Eck getting lofted on old out dated gear (behind Tophat) becuase he was using bad judgement and had his kite placed over head, which is something you could not do with old gear. And Kevin, (the guy who gets bounced of the wall) who was a new kiter on older used gear he bought cheap on ebay and had no biusness going out in hurricane wind after only kiting for a few weeks in lite wind. These two accedents in no way represent the current level of kiting or for that fact kite control.

As the tens of thousand of images world wide of people haveing a blast kiting are proof of the postive side of kiting, all it takes is a yahoo or two having a accident on youtube to provide you with enough knowledge to pass judgement with out any other type of education???

There are lots of kiter who post on this website, I am sure they could comment on the precision control the kite provides if properly trained.

[kipstar]

my impression is that the good kiters who have control of their gear are in good control; the ones who think they are better than they actually are tend to be the ones who get in trouble, exactly the same as snowboarding.

Having almost taken kites to the head on the beach multiple times and getting cut off all the time, I now tend to just climb upwind of their lines (which tend to be fairly close inshore so they can ride the chop) and we all get along fine.

Personally, I tend to admire the airtime and skill of riding using the kite or a windsurf sail like a wing:

this guy gets some good airtime. Personally, I am scared s&*tless and stick to the ground when I board and the water when I sail...speed and racing tactics is more my thing.

I have, however, on my boat previously experienced the joy of kiting in so far as we got hooked in a yacht race and dragged sideways. Pic attached. :-) not much airtime and scared to death that I would be showered in fragments of carbon, so in that respect, probably quite similar to the first day of kiting in 30 knots ;-)

[photodad2001]

I think your confused, Eric Eck getting lofted on old out dated gear (behind Tophat) becuase he was using bad judgement and had his kite placed over head, which is something you could not do with old gear. And Kevin, (the guy who gets bounced of the wall) who was a new kiter on older used gear he bought cheap on ebay and had no biusness going out in hurricane wind after only kiting for a few weeks in lite wind. These two accedents in no way represent the current level of kiting or for that fact kite control.

As the tens of thousand of images world wide of people haveing a blast kiting are proof of the postive side of kiting, all it takes is a yahoo or two having a accident on youtube to provide you with enough knowledge to pass judgement with out any other type of education???

There are lots of kiter who post on this website, I am sure they could comment on the precision control the kite provides if properly trained.

So the guy in your video going backwards "meant" to do that? Getting caught in updrafts isn't controlling the situation. Why then the long segment on "possible" ways to get out of an uncontrolled situation along with the quote about praying and all that? It won't be long before a highly respected, well experienced kiter hits one that's too strong and will end up on the news. When you think you are controlling nature, nature ussually gives you a dose of reality. [side note: certain spiders travel through the air just like kiters only with their silk, they've been known to fly as high as 50,000 feet and have been found on weather balloons, scientist believe that is how they populated islands thousands of miles out to sea.] Anyway, I know there is some level of control, I'm just saying it's not enough for me.

[photodad2001]

Bordy, just out of curiosity, what kind of harness do you use and have you made any adjustments to your harness or lines for this type of riding?

[photodad2001]

Personally, I tend to admire the airtime and skill of riding using the kite or a windsurf sail like a wing:

That video was sweet. Bernoulli's effect is splendid thing.

[Bordy]

So the guy in your video going backwards "meant" to do that? Getting caught in updrafts isn't controlling the situation. Why then the long segment on "possible" ways to get out of an uncontrolled situation along with the quote about praying and all that? It won't be long before a highly respected, well experienced kiter hits one that's too strong and will end up on the news. When you think you are controlling nature, nature ussually gives you a dose of reality. [side note: certain spiders travel through the air just like kiters only with their silk, they've been known to fly as high as 50,000 feet and have been found on weather balloons, scientist believe that is how they populated islands thousands of miles out to sea.] Anyway, I know there is some level of control, I'm just saying it's not enough for me.

You just don't get it do You? Everyone gliding in the video ment to be gliding, You are talking about spiders in realation to human in control of a wing? I don't get it, here's a video with some great kiters using great skill to fly with their kites and you are argueeing control issues? The segment were I talk about the possibility of getting caught in a updraft and how to get out of it since this is brand new terratory we are pioneering is there to keep the danger factor in perspective, while sharing the experance several of us have discovered to stay out of updrafts if it does happen, oh yea plus you can make the wing depower and come down!!!

Your last sentance pretty much somes it up..

"Anyway, I know there is some level of control, I'm just saying it's not enough for me."

You base this on what? Have you ever flown a traction kite? How do you know its not enough for you???? Prove to me that your statement has any merit?

Is there not enough control becuase you have logged all the nessacery training hours on a kite to be a kiter and then decided you prefered windsurfing becuase you feel there is much more control based on your personal experance????

Or as I think, you are just guessing since thats the best way to have conversations online??

There is a huge level of control much more then you "imagaine" and let us really cut to the chase here, As with so many of your Post here you are making comments based on you "quessing" this or "assuming" this you also go so far as to come up with your own crazy notions about how spiders drift in the wind or that some day one of us is going to get it wrong? And drift like a spider 50,000 feet high on a high tech peice of gear that I can do anything I want with? really?

And just to answer your question about harness I use a ozone harness and a climbing harness back up, With several extra conections for high flying, If you watch the video i even touch on the subject?

Here maybe this will but it in perspective...

Its not for begginers you cant just go out and do everything needed to go big accedentally.............

You state that the Bernoulli's effect is a splendid thing but cant regonize people using it effectivly????:smashfrea:smashfrea

[photodad2001]

You base this on what? Have you ever flown a traction kite? How do you know its not enough for you???? Prove to me that your statement has any merit?

Is there not enough control becuase you have logged all the nessacery training hours on a kite to be a kiter and then decided you prefered windsurfing becuase you feel there is much more control based on your personal experance????

Or as I think, you are just guessing since thats the best way to have conversations online??

And just to answer your question about harness I use a ozone harness and a climbing harness back up, With several extra conections for high flying, If you watch the video i even touch on the subject?

You state that the Bernoulli's effect is a splendid thing but cant regonize people using it effectivly????:smashfrea:smashfrea

Yes, Bernoulli's effect creates lift when wind travels over the wing seperating air molecules from one another. The molecules beneath the wing travel a shorter distance than those on top creating the molecules on top to travel faster than those below creating an upward suction. Bernoulli's is what can be seen at work in the kitewing and windsurfing videos and AT TIMES, very short times and in small amounts, in the kite videos you posted. Only when the rider has a high forward velocity going into the wind is it being used. The force at work in your videos appears to be more along the lines of what everyone in the video refers to as "paragliding". Where the kite pockets air, not cutting through it to create lift. An updraft (term used often when refering to kiter's big airs) pushes the under-surface of the kite forcing the rider up, a windsurfer uses his sail as a wing (as it is shaped to do) and the airflow over the wing creates a suction above the surface sail and the rider is sucked up. The correct question is can YOU recognize when Bernoulli's effect is being used.

I have never used a kite to ride, surf, or board, but I used to do stunt kites years back, smaller versions of what you have without the inflatable tube or number of lines, so I do know the principles of flying a kite, jumping etc. I did that for maybe a year or 2. That was before the idea of riding behind it was evolved so it wasn't that big of a thrill. None of my friends were into it and seeing how far I could jump got old after a while so when it finally ripped I tossed it never to return.

[BlueB]

Wow now, hang on!

Bernoulli Effect, or difference in preasure caused by difference in flow speed, is not observed only when jumping or flying. It is the very reason why a sailboat (winsurfer, or kite for that matter) can sail efficiently in any other direction but down wind. The only course of sailing where not much of Bernoulli is at work is close to square down wind. Then, the very good sailors know how to create some laminar or turbulated/laminar flow even at close to dead run, by creating the backwinding of the main, or sailing by the lee, or creating enough apparent wind to tighten the sails.

This is where my "real world" expertise ends, what follows is a specullation...

The paraglider, well... glides. The moment you have the movement not parallel to the wind an apparent wind angle is created, so is the flow over the foil and Bernoulli kicks in. Same thing with the kite. The only air "tool" really working on "pocketing" of the air is an old-school millitary mushroom style parashute. Pretty much the equivalent of the traditional spinaker on the sail boat.

[Bordy]

Yes, Bernoulli's effect creates lift when wind travels over the wing seperating air molecules from one another. The molecules beneath the wing travel a shorter distance than those on top creating the molecules on top to travel faster than those below creating an upward suction. Bernoulli's is what can be seen at work in the kitewing and windsurfing videos and AT TIMES, very short times and in small amounts, in the kite videos you posted. Only when the rider has a high forward velocity going into the wind is it being used. The force at work in your videos appears to be more along the lines of what everyone in the video refers to as "paragliding". Where the kite pockets air, not cutting through it to create lift. An updraft (term used often when refering to kiter's big airs) pushes the under-surface of the kite forcing the rider up, a windsurfer uses his sail as a wing (as it is shaped to do) and the airflow over the wing creates a suction above the surface sail and the rider is sucked up. The correct question is can YOU recognize when Bernoulli's effect is being used.

I have never used a kite to ride, surf, or board, but I used to do stunt kites years back, smaller versions of what you have without the inflatable tube or number of lines, so I do know the principles of flying a kite, jumping etc. I did that for maybe a year or 2. That was before the idea of riding behind it was evolved so it wasn't that big of a thrill. None of my friends were into it and seeing how far I could jump got old after a while so when it finally ripped I tossed it never to return.

Wow thanks for telling me how lift is created,

Again since I am of the riders in the video, and one of the kiters who helped discover what could be done with the kite on snow I quess I should just shut up, and let you tell me how it works?

Lets double check the source of the conversation again, You, Still watching me and my friends.

And me again really doing the action you are so poorly and incorectly quessing about based on the fact you once flew a simple two line kite and learned to move it fast enough to make little jumps? I have been flying stunt kites since I was about 10 so around 27 years, it really helped me learn to be a great kiter but It is stationary kite flying not traction kiting , it just goes to prove your level of ignorance and arrogance you took the time to explain what a stunt kite is to a kiter of course you go one to reference how you think jumping works based on your stationary "trainer" kite experance, some thing that changes when you begin moving:smashfrea

Every time we glide we are using lift created by high and low pressure systems over and under a wing? We head down hill directly into the wind and create lift by making thrust. I also speed fly its almost the same action only using a smaller wing on shorter lines could you take the time to explain how that works? Its again something I Do but you could watch a video and tell me how its done right? You don't get it at all do you?

Didn't some thing like this happen before when you explained to me what being a pro alpine rider must be like before you knew I was a pro??

So now your again just spilling nonsense, I love how you keep quoting me and things I said in the video while trying to "correct" me on line.

Do you understand I am the guy explaining gliding( not paragliding I only say we are bridging the gap between kiting and paragliding as you try to miss qoute me from the video ) to the camera and the kiting community on the videos. I have no Idea where you created the term "updraft" from and why you think its a term used to explain big air as you state earlier As I explain what can happen if you get into a updraft, which is a column of rising air from thermal lift or turbulent wind being redirected by a cliffband or hill side up. Do you get that I currently hold a national title in kiting and your still trying to educate me about my job based on your windsurfing and stuntkite flying experance?

Again lets summarize, I am the dude in the orange suit explaing to the camera how Gliding works based on first hand experance while pioneering using the kite to fly with about 5 other people worldwide.

And your a dude on a snowboard website who is watching the video with out any first hand experance trying to quote(but really misquoteing and making up terms) me in the video to correct, and educate me online?

Really????????

The fact that you took the time to explain lift to a guy clearly using it sums up your online persona to me.

I forgot how good so many people are at stuff ....... :freak3:online

[Bordy]

Wow now, hang on!

Bernoulli Effect, or difference in preasure caused by difference in flow speed, is not observed only when jumping or flying. It is the very reason why a sailboat (winsurfer, or kite for that matter) can sail efficiently in any other direction but down wind. The only course of sailing where not much of Bernoulli is at work is close to square down wind. Then, the very good sailors know how to create some laminar or turbulated/laminar flow even at close to dead run, by creating the backwinding of the main, or sailing by the lee, or creating enough apparent wind to tighten the sails.

This is where my "real world" expertise ends, what follows is a specullation...

The paraglider, well... glides. The moment you have the movement not parallel to the wind an apparent wind angle is created, so is the flow over the foil and Bernoulli kicks in. Same thing with the kite. The only air "tool" really working on "pocketing" of the air is an old-school millitary mushroom style parashute. Pretty much the equivalent of the traditional spinaker on the sail boat.

Blue posted this why I was trying to put together my response. Again first hand experance shared on a web site with some real specullation based on practical experance from a sailor, not a bucnh of quessing thrown together!

Sail and Kites are wings as a hobie cat sailor I loved using the sail as a wing there is a reason its called "FLYING the hull"

Thanks for input.

[photodad2001]

Wow now, hang on!

Bernoulli Effect, or difference in preasure caused by difference in flow speed, is not observed only when jumping or flying. It is the very reason why a sailboat (winsurfer, or kite for that matter) can sail efficiently in any other direction but down wind.

That's incorrect. What enables a sailboat or windsurfer or kiter to sail upwind is the keel, fin, rudder, or other force below the surface of the water. To prove this, look at formula windsurfers. Huge fins. They need these huge fins to create resistance from being forced downwind by the huge sails they use. The keel on a sailboat works the same way. The board itself can even be used by putting it on rail to cut upwind. Bernoulli's can enable the sailor to sail faster but it does not help get upwind. Think about the force at work and how that would effect upwind motion.

There is "apparent wind" which allows the sailor to sheet in further to create more thrust. Is that what your were thinking of?

[photodad2001]

Blue posted this why I was trying to put together my response. Again first hand experance shared on a web site with some real specullation based on practical experance from a sailor, not a bucnh of quessing thrown together!

Sail and Kites are wings as a hobie cat sailor I loved using the sail as a wing there is a reason its called "FLYING the hull"

Thanks for input.

You do realize that he's not right. :lol::lol::lol: Do you have your helmets custom made? I mean in order to fit your head. You sound like Al Gore with his claims about inventing the internet. You know I was snowboarding down sand dunes in 86, am I the pioneer of that?

Here's tacking 101 for ya. http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae438.cfm

One piece of advice for you. You are not the know it all you claim to be and your possition as a professional doesn't enable you the right to talk down to anyone. I've learned a lot on this forum and guess what, you could learn some things too, even from non-pros like myself. I've sailed since I was a kid and refuse to allow your blatant ignorance of this topic to be allowed cuz yer a pro.

[BlueB]

Yup, what do I know… I won’t go on stating my credentials, but I believe that I’m pretty qualified to talk about this topic. I’ll try to stick to plain discussion. But, please, before you say that something is not correct, make sure that you are right. Do the proper research. Instead of referring to very basic, almost Wikipedia type of material, try reading something more serious. I’d recommend High Performance Sailing by Frank Bethwaite. There is an entire chapter dedicated to the physics of the sail, explained and with examples understandable to a common sailor. It includes the history of discovery of laminar flow (Bernoulli).

Even the article you referred to says:

“As subsequent wind passes around the sail (airfoil), negative pressure is induced out front of and on the leeward side of the sail”

That’s Bernoulli, for you.

Or just do a simple experiment for yourself:

Sail a tight reach or a loose beat and oversheet the main. Observe the boat slowing down and heeling more as well as the leeward tell-tales flying up. You are sailing now mostly on the push, or “pocketing” of the wind. Then release the main to the point where the tell-tales fly parallel. Watch the boat healing less and picking up the speed. You are sailing now more efficiently, using suction created by laminar flow. Bernoulli.

The only “push” that sail needs is just to create the foil shape, to allow for fast laminar flow around the leeward side. The rest is “suction”.

Apparent wind angle I talk about is mostly related to the travel angles close to natural wind direction. As the sails are placed close to perpendicular to the natural wind, the force used is the “thrust”. A skilled sailor would try to create apparent wind angle on the sail to try and induce the “suction”. So, the sailor sheets in (when that is required course of action) to create the laminar flow, which gives more suction, not more thrust.

Shortly, Bernoulli allows you to sail more efficient at any pointing angle, upwind included. Re-read my post and you’ll see that’s what I claimed. Since you challenged the importance of Bernoulli for sailing upwind, I would go on to say that it is especially important upwind.

What you say about foils bellow the water is correct, but that’s just the under water part of the equation. There is no need confusing the issues, as we are discussing the dynamics of the sail.

[Bordy]

You do realize that he's not right. :lol::lol::lol: Do you have your helmets custom made? I mean in order to fit your head. You sound like Al Gore with his claims about inventing the internet. You know I was snowboarding down sand dunes in 86, am I the pioneer of that?

Here's tacking 101 for ya. http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae438.cfm

One piece of advice for you. You are not the know it all you claim to be and your possition as a professional doesn't enable you the right to talk down to anyone. I've learned a lot on this forum and guess what, you could learn some things too, even from non-pros like myself. I've sailed since I was a kid and refuse to allow your blatant ignorance of this topic to be allowed cuz yer a pro.

Your right, why in the world would some one who can do all of the things your saying have any clue about the topic. And haven't you used the helmets custom made line before? You just don't understand that I am a real athlete in a sport and if you can't reconize that I am a damn good kiter and need to maintain the mind set to remain as such then your even a bigger tool then I thought? And for the record I already think your a huge tool.....

The fact that you claim I am Blatantly ignorent about my profession is the icing on the cake.

Thanks for the advice about not being the know it all I claim to I'll be sure to value that from you... Some one who has strived to go down in flames about so many topics while sticking to your crap sandwich claims the entire time.

Time to place you and your uneducated argueements back on ignore.

This is my best impression of you..

Oh no mister pro kiter, I don't know anything about the world of kiting but i am sure since you are just another poster on a web site I should tell you 'whats up. Heres how lift works, I think I will use wipipidia to learn what I don't understand, then tell you whats up, then when I do a poor job of it, and others join in to share i'll change the topic and talk about using keels and fins cuz i just can't be wrong, about how your kites that you use daily work! Then just to keep the smack talk I take away the fact that you and a group of friends learned how to use kites to fly and I'll use some Al Gore statement to make my self feel good. I have no idea about how people learned to glide but sure could not be becuase you and your friends figured it out......Then people hunted you down to document it on video that you posted a link to with you actually doing what you claim with you explaing the process you help discover. oh yea then let me give you a peice of(still you talking of course) advise just cuz your a pro doesn't give you the right to share your real world experance on a web site were i feel talked down apon cuz I don't understand the topic at the level you do so instead i'll tell you how your a know it all who doesn't know all he thinks about his job..you see I have been sailing since I was a kid and still don't know what bernoulli effect is and am going to continue being wrong about it online......

Bomber will be so much nicer with you on ignore again..... I can't beleave I even gave you another chance....

[MEC]

This is getting so entertaining! :D

Must go get some popcorn and a beer ready for the next round.

[Bordy]

Oh so i had to go look at the like Photodad posted about tacking......

I think I understand it more now, not the tacking part since I knew everything that the link shared at around age eight when I raced sunfish.

But maybe thats his level of sailing and that info is huge to him???

:biggthump

[photodad2001]

Your right, why in the world would some one who can do all of the things your saying have any clue about the topic. And haven't you used the helmets custom made line before? You just don't understand that I am a real athlete in a sport and if you can't reconize that I am a damn good kiter and need to maintain the mind set to remain as such then your even a bigger tool then I thought? And for the record I already think your a huge tool.....

The fact that you claim I am Blatantly ignorent about my profession is the icing on the cake.

Thanks for the advice about not being the know it all I claim to I'll be sure to value that from you... Some one who has strived to go down in flames about so many topics while sticking to your crap sandwich claims the entire time.

Time to place you and your uneducated argueements back on ignore.

This is my best impression of you..

Oh no mister pro kiter, I don't know anything about the world of kiting but i am sure since you are just another poster on a web site I should tell you 'whats up. Heres how lift works, I think I will use wipipidia to learn what I don't understand, then tell you whats up, then when I do a poor job of it, and others join in to share i'll change the topic and talk about using keels and fins cuz i just can't be wrong, about how your kites that you use daily work! Then just to keep the smack talk I take away the fact that you and a group of friends learned how to use kites to fly and I'll use some Al Gore statement to make my self feel good. I have no idea about how people learned to glide but sure could not be becuase you and your friends figured it out......Then people hunted you down to document it on video that you posted a link to with you actually doing what you claim with you explaing the process you help discover. oh yea then let me give you a peice of(still you talking of course) advise just cuz your a pro doesn't give you the right to share your real world experance on a web site were i feel talked down apon cuz I don't understand the topic at the level you do so instead i'll tell you how your a know it all who doesn't know all he thinks about his job..you see I have been sailing since I was a kid and still don't know what bernoulli effect is and am going to continue being wrong about it online......

Bomber will be so much nicer with you on ignore again..... I can't beleave I even gave you another chance....

AWESOME!!!! You may be a professional alpine snowboarder, but you are showing a level of imaturity any professional tool would admire. BlueB's statement about Bernoulli's making it possible to sail upwind is incorrect and your defense of it just shows your stuborness and inability to wrap your mind around concepts require vocabulary beyond "dude" and "bitchin". As for your threats of putting me on ignore, you may for a while, just like you storm out of this forum and go pout in the corner for a month or 2 everytime people don't kiss your ass. I was hoping you'd do one of your famous "I'm never coming back here" tantrums. I posted that link because it was obvious you lack the education of the physics behind what you do. Bernoulli's supplies thrust and has nothing to do with enabling you to move upwind vs. downwind. Now if you want to impress me (which you won't because you lack this ability) you will admit you, the great Bordy, was wrong. Oh my, did I just use the word Bordy and wrong in the same sentence? You have to be a totally different person off line, I refuse to believe there are people like you actually out there.

[photodad2001]

Yup, what do I know… I won’t go on stating my credentials, but I believe that I’m pretty qualified to talk about this topic. I’ll try to stick to plain discussion. But, please, before you say that something is not correct, make sure that you are right. Do the proper research. Instead of referring to very basic, almost Wikipedia type of material, try reading something more serious. I’d recommend High Performance Sailing by Frank Bethwaite. There is an entire chapter dedicated to the physics of the sail, explained and with examples understandable to a common sailor. It includes the history of discovery of laminar flow (Bernoulli).

Even the article you referred to says:

“As subsequent wind passes around the sail (airfoil), negative pressure is induced out front of and on the leeward side of the sail”

That’s Bernoulli, for you.

Or just do a simple experiment for yourself:

Sail a tight reach or a loose beat and oversheet the main. Observe the boat slowing down and heeling more as well as the leeward tell-tales flying up. You are sailing now mostly on the push, or “pocketing” of the wind. Then release the main to the point where the tell-tales fly parallel. Watch the boat healing less and picking up the speed. You are sailing now more efficiently, using suction created by laminar flow. Bernoulli.

The only “push” that sail needs is just to create the foil shape, to allow for fast laminar flow around the leeward side. The rest is “suction”.

Apparent wind angle I talk about is mostly related to the travel angles close to natural wind direction. As the sails are placed close to perpendicular to the natural wind, the force used is the “thrust”. A skilled sailor would try to create apparent wind angle on the sail to try and induce the “suction”. So, the sailor sheets in (when that is required course of action) to create the laminar flow, which gives more suction, not more thrust.

Shortly, Bernoulli allows you to sail more efficient at any pointing angle, upwind included. Re-read my post and you’ll see that’s what I claimed. Since you challenged the importance of Bernoulli for sailing upwind, I would go on to say that it is especially important upwind.

What you say about foils bellow the water is correct, but that’s just the under water part of the equation. There is no need confusing the issues, as we are discussing the dynamics of the sail.

Your original statement says about Bernoulli's making upwind travel possible is incorrect and please show me otherwise. Bernoulli's effect on the sail may allow the sailor to go faster than the wind and creates thrust, but is in no way responsible for upwind travel. That is the statement you made and it is false.

[Bordy]

AWESOME!!!! You may be a professional alpine snowboarder, but you are showing a level of imaturity any professional tool would admire. BlueB's statement about Bernoulli's making it possible to sail upwind is incorrect and your defense of it just shows your stuborness and inability to wrap your mind around concepts require vocabulary beyond "dude" and "bitchin". As for your threats of putting me on ignore, you may for a while, just like you storm out of this forum and go pout in the corner for a month or 2 everytime people don't kiss your ass. I was hoping you'd do one of your famous "I'm never coming back here" tantrums. I posted that link because it was obvious you lack the education of the physics behind what you do. Bernoulli's supplies thrust and has nothing to do with enabling you to move upwind vs. downwind. Now if you want to impress me (which you won't because you lack this ability) you will admit you, the great Bordy, was wrong. Oh my, did I just use the word Bordy and wrong in the same sentence? You have to be a totally different person off line, I refuse to believe there are people like you actually out there.

So as always your just a troll trying to bait me into not wanting to post on this website??

I can't beleave you really think people that can do the things your learning don't understand the physics behind them.

Nice that you changed your avtar to planing not slogging soon maybe you'll get in the straps and perhaps hook in. then you can change your avtar again!