astrokel Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 So, the nose is actually carving! Nose shape and the nose <i>kick</i> affect the carve shape, and especially the initiation. So it seems that what Coiler, SG, Kessler and probably others are doing is designing nose shape and kick as an active participant in carve shape, rather than as an afterthought. They're thinking in 3 dimensions. Pretty cool, really. Love it!!! This it was what made me think of surfboard shaping when BV described it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 While you're carving, the edge is pretty deep in the snow - so much that the point where the nose edge is meeting the snow is waaay up the nose - like in this picture, it's up around 10 o'clock (imagine a clock face on the nose): Jack, It's exactly that picture that makes me wonder about how large an effect small sidecut changes make and is why your sage advice of keeping a 2m difference in sidecut radii between boards in ones quiver seems applicable:biggthump. The edge is really buried in the snow and the area actually bearing on the snow and the board flex seems to be more important in how the board turns (Ice or super hard snow is a different matter altogether though...). The sidecut combined with torsional flex may be important on how "slippable" the board is and perhaps in turn initiation. But that nose shape thing might be just as important. It seems this "shaped camber" thing might be really important in the evolution of board design. Maybe that wavy camber board (Aztec) got the idea right but not the actual design right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 You guys are thinking way too much! The nose elevation seems to be a more important part of the board design now that we are dealing with Titanal. As mentioned it is pre bent into a carve so it can actually be left stiffer so it doesn't overhook as a real soft section would when really pressured. So you get initiation without the tendency to over initiate. Of course if you leave it a bit too stiff you get initiation without the tendency to initiate:D so the boards seem to stick until you get on them hard. On the latest AMs I have modified the nose elevation and stiffness to get better initiation in softer snow and the results are very good. On Schtubbies, they have aways had this and do hook in very nicely. Since I build them, I guess I can lay down the law as to what is or is not a Schtubby. Since Bobs 171 x 11.5m is called a Turnschtuuby it still qualifies. The design difference in my view is really the nose as it is only 10cms past the end of the core as a " regular " board would have 14 cms. You can safely pull this off as the nose elevation actually starts back somewhat on the core so it is cheating a bit and being lifted before you get to the end of the core. The effective part as Jack has shown is pretty much a normal elevation curve until you get past the part which in normal circumstances is touching the snow. Beyond that it is lifted quite abruptly to give a margin of safety in irregular conditions. The ability to get more turn out of them still arises from the lamination structure allowing for more bend when pushed. I have had riders give good feedback on all models as there really is no secret as it is just preference. Latest feedback on flex has some liking the more relaxed AM type flex and of course some others like the stiffer mid and tail which is found on the Schtubbies and other Freecarve oriented boards. May lead to having 2 options for flex to satisfy different needs on some of the models. I have personally found some days I have more energy and like the stiffer mid/tail and other days I enjoy the forgiveness of the softer flex. Again, just preference and also skills so it is important to try to sort this out before building . Heres a preliminary list of the somewhat specialized metal models I will have templates for next season. For Freecarve/ Rec race models in the low 170s to 180 I can pretty much transfer designs almost directly from glass boards so those dimensions can remain the same. Stubbies ( same as Schtubbies) 161 x 19.5 x 13.2 x 5mm 171 x 20 x11.5m x 5mm ( turnstubby) 171 x 20 or 21 x 13.2 x 6mm 171 x 19.5 x 13.2/16m x 6mm ( speedstubby) Most AM models can be transferred over but they do seem to work better when built with a higher sidecut over the older standard templates. 172 x 21.5 x 12m x 4mm 176 x 21.5 x 12m x 4mm Monster and Mini Monster 188 x 23 x 15/16m 182 x 22 x 15/16m. New School Race ( NSR) 182 x 19.5 x 13.2/16m 185 x 20 x 13.7/17m I'm sure there are more but thats all I can come up with from memory. Cheers, Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 The shaping of a surf board is all feel and intuition. It feels like that is how the newest boards are being approached as opposed to a board being a physical manifestation of a bunch of numbers (length/sidecut/width/etc..). That's super cool.Talking to BV about the front end of the stubby was a revelation... Hate to disappoint but it is all numbers. Differences are so small it caliper measurement for final core and pretty much all other measurements are measured to desired tolerances be it a mm or smaller. I'm going to shape myself a few directional kiteboards this summer for fun and that is art, I'm real slow and not too good at it but its definitely an art. BV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willywhit Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Hate to disappoint but it is all numbers. Differences are so small it caliper measurement for final core and pretty much all other measurements are measured to desired tolerances be it a mm or smaller. I'm going to shape myself a few directional kiteboards this summer for fun and that is art, I'm real slow and not too good at it but its definitely an art. BV put me on the list for an experiMENTAL directional kiteboard.OVER build it and I'll see if I can break it :p. A Madd twintip for wakestyle and a Coiler for downwinders in the waves. Did ya get good wind in the OBX bruce ? I never made it down but missed a good week, here's a bunch of my boston/cape cod kite buds, you might recognize a few-holly, jimmy, todd, neto...who else ? Dimitri ! greek freak ! http://public.fotki.com/toddjb/kb/springtrip/wed-kp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrokel Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Hate to disappoint but it is all numbers. Differences are so small it caliper measurement for final core and pretty much all other measurements are measured to desired tolerances be it a mm or smaller.... but its definitely an art. BV It IS all numbers but definitely more that just sidecut! (and the numbers are really to enable production consisntency and performance predictability). My only point was that your designs involve a lot more complex shapes in plan, section and elevation than just cutting a big round shape in the side of a piece of plywood. I can't wait to see how those numbers ride!!!:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Can't call the next experiment a Schtubby... I think we got that nailed down pretty much.. Now its time for the Hyper G - X4 163/166...;) Im doing flight simulation now on it.. and then its off to Qualification Testing.. Should be done around the same time the Boieng 787 Dreamliner first flight.... the 787 could fly sooner .. but they seem to be missing a lot of Carbon Fiber and Glue right now.. Right Said Shred... ps... Bruce...I don't see the Schtubby X3 Propellerator on your list!!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 12 OF 14 days on the water finished off with 40 mph on a 7m. Even windsurfed a bit:eek: Back in town next week to get back at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freecarver Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 12 OF 14 days on the water finished off with 40 mph on a 7m. Even windsurfed a bit:eek:Back in town next week to get back at it. Lucky you Bruce, Although here the weather is like summer,no luck with the wind. Even Thermos doesn't do our favor to blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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