Slalom -vs- GS

[John E]

I've been thinking more since some replies to my last post "Unweighting"

When I ski, my "style" tends more toward slalom than GS. I have taken one alpine snowboard lesson. In that lesson the instructor had us work on GS turns and said that slalom turns would come later. So, since then, I have been working on GS turns.

I have been thinking of a snowboarder in terms of a spring-mass-damper system. Any mechanical system can be modeled as such. The mass is the boarder's weight and the springs and damper are his legs and board flex. Any such system has a fundemental frequency that it will naturally ocillate at. The higher the mass, the lower the frequency. The stiffer the spring, the higher the frequency.

When I slalom ski, I spring from left turn to right turn. At the apex of the turn, the skis (board) and legs are at their maximum compression or flex. As one transitions through center, the legs and board are relaxed and one is briefly "weightless". One's mass then falls back toward earth and begins to compress into the next turn. This happens at a natural frequency specific to that rider and board. I'm guessing this frequency is near 1 Hz (once per second). This frequency is much closer to a slalom rate than GS.

I wonder if that is why I tend toward slalom turns rather than GS. If I try to mimic slalom turns rather than GS maybe I'll make a breakthrough sooner. The brief moment when I tried to mimic a slalom rider (Marshall), I felt briefly like "I got it".

I think the style that I would ultimately like to ride is more like GS but if I try to master slalom first, will I get there sooner?

Am I all wet? Am I overthinking this?

[pebu]

I'm thinkin you're over thinkin it... Whether you're right or wrong I cannot answer.

[Allee]

As I was thinking on the weekend watching the guys I rode with hauling off down a bumped up, soft snow black slope pulling perfect turns, and realising that I just don't have the technical tools (or maybe the ball$) to do the same. I think Jack said somewhere that the key to being a good rider is being able to describe a bunch of different turn shapes on the hill, depending on circumstances, and I'm a long way from that.

(Disclaimer ; what follows is not written be a technical expert!)

Could it be the slalom turn just feels better because you're instinctively used to that action of weight and unweight, having done it from skiing? For me, I find the GS turn actually a lot harder ... it requires more speed (which is scary), a quiet body to hold that loooong edge, which takes a bit of getting used to, and a lot more concentration on what the board is doing. Letting a GS type turn get away from you results in acceleration. I find the slalom turn is much easier, you get to bounce from edge to edge, the form doesn' t have to be as good, and the balance not quite so perfect - it seems a lot easier to keep the board in check. It also seems to me that there are a few options for executing the slalom turn, the push-pull and the cross under, whereas the GS turn for me seems to be the more technical of the two.

Like you, I followed someone down the hill last weekend and discovered that in the process of concentrating more on his line, and less on my riding, it all became so much easier. Is this because your body instinctively responds to the required turn, rather than the brain telling it what to do? Interesting.

The two threads you've posted have some great information.

[bartron]

For me, I find the GS turn actually a lot harder [...] whereas the GS turn for me seems to be the more technical of the two.

Now that's interesting. I always found the opposite was true. I wonder if it's related to a persons extrovert/introvert temperament.

Like you, I followed someone down the hill last weekend and discovered that in the process of concentrating more on his line, and less on my riding, it all became so much easier. Is this because your body instinctively responds to the required turn, rather than the brain telling it what to do? Interesting.

That is absolutely true. Not just in snowboarding either. I remember my driving instructor telling the class that "...we [people] steer to where we're looking.". I know during the race training that's held around here, the coach pushes a similar idea, telling the riders to look beyond the gate to where they want to be after the turn and the body will follow -- it knows what to do.

Admittedly, it's not always easy to do. :)

'later...

[Fastskiguy]

When I slalom ski, I spring from left turn to right turn. At the apex of the turn, the skis (board) and legs are at their maximum compression or flex. As one transitions through center, the legs and board are relaxed and one is briefly "weightless". One's mass then falls back toward earth and begins to compress into the next turn.

There's several ways to crank good turns, I like to be a full extension at the apex of the turn...both on skis (sl and gs) and snowboard. That way you can be extending in the top part of the turn (12-3 o'clock) to press the ski or board into the snow and get it bent into a carve AND you can flex to reduce the pressure at the bottom of the turn (3-6 o'clock) to reduce skipping and chatter.

I believe this allows you to have more even pressure on the carving edge throughout the turn. And it allows the feeling of extending down the hill at the top of the turn, totally rad :) It looks (to me) like skilled carvers do this.

No, you are not overthinking anything

[D.T.]

I have been thinking of a snowboarder in terms of a spring-mass-damper system. Any mechanical system can be modeled as such.

Another engineering geek I see. :D

I understand your throught process. I find that with my riding style, in GS turns, my spring rate is less, but the stroke is greater; more of a cross-through technique. Max. compression occurs at apex of turn.

Slalom - higher spring rate, stroke is less; more of a cross-under. Max. compression occurs as the board transition under my body.

Come ride with us and we can discuss on the hill. FYI, we will likely catch sh!t from many for having this geeky discussion. :D

[John E]

What I forgot to post inthe original note was that the natural frequency is way above a GS turn. Maybe with a GS turn one is relying on speed and tipping the board on edge to decamber the board.

For a slalom turn the unweighting/weighting cycle decambers the board and helps to initiate the turn.

I think this is also why moguls evolve to a small range of spacing & sizes. These are formed by the average natural frequency of skiers.

Similar phenomenon with washboarded roads. The frequency of the washboard is the average frequency of motor vehicle suspension.

All this said, I think the next time I go boarding, I will try to concentrate on slalom turns & see if I can grasp the sensation.

[pebu]

I don't think you'll catch much ****. There seem to be alot of engineer/engineer types here.

You know, I was gonna dispute what was said about in slolom the max compression is in the cross under... But then I thought about it and I think I understand now. In gs, you're pushing the board into the turn, making max compression. In sl, you don't really push into the turns, the board "just goes." The max compression comes when the board pushes back and through the cross-under.

The reason I was going to dispute this was because of the assumption of the body as 1 spring when really it is a system of springs. If you were to pull up for the crossunder, I think it may be quicker and/or less "scrubbing" of speed, which would leave you in a fairly neutral spring position at the cross under, a more compressed position at the initiation of the turn through the apex, then under tension during the apex to crossunder stage. That would of course assume a "pumping" technique.

Sorry for ramblin on there, but I think I was trying to explain things to myself as much as I was anybody else here. My sl board should show up tomorrow, so I need to learn as much as I can between gs and sl...

[bartron]

What I forgot to post inthe original note was that the natural frequency is way above a GS turn. Maybe with a GS turn one is relying on speed and tipping the board on edge to decamber the board.

For a slalom turn the unweighting/weighting cycle decambers the board and helps to initiate the turn.

That's exactly why I find GS turns are easier than SL turns.

'later...

[felix]

@ D.T you ride a cross-under in slalom?

We tried this with our local club sometimes ago (half of our members are riding in the Europecup (not me yet) and getting to 15 places - so I think riding level is quite high - during the glacier season we train with the Austrian B team sometimes) because it really is ímpossible to do so in Gs. However nevertheless our coach told us to only use cross-under when you are out of ballance and need to recover or if it happens as it is much slower. We clocked our times with cross-under vs cross-over runs and cross over was a lot quicker (about .5 to 1 second on a 35 sec run). Maybe its training - but on worldcup I haven't seen cross-under used in slalom either. Rather very aggressive Cross-Over from Sigi Grabner or Rok Flander (I meet both of them 13-15. April on a promo happening where 16 active worldcuppers 16 legends ant the amateurs come together in Ischgl for a season end - www.sgproteam.com ) and for sure I'll hammer the worldcuppers with questions (already sorry for them)

[Bullwings]

I read part of this thread last night, and unexpectedly went riding today.

I spent about 1/4 of my time on a steep green (summit run - for the locals) just working on cross-under and trying to be quick and fluid. I definitely think it's a bit tougher than the GS style turns because all your weight shifting and movements have to happen much quicker. There's also less room for error, and it's a bit harder to recover from if you screw up in your rythm. Decambering the board requires different and proper technique, and you really need and want that pop from your board for throwing you into the next edge transition. On a steeper run at higher speeds, it's easy for the board to get ahead of you and literally fly up out from under you -- leaving you sliding on your back in the direction your board was last pointed.

For GS "bomber style" turns, there's much more time for you to make your movements, granted you're traveling faster though. You still have to work to decamber the board, but it happens more naturally with speed. There's also more time for you to set up for your next edge transition, you're not constantly hopping back and forth from edge to edge with the constant board pop. The carves are spaced out, so if you should fumble a bit mid way, there's time to recover before the next transition.

As for what's faster for getting down the mountain or through gates, I don't know. I'm purely a recreational rider and don't worry about that stuff. I wouldn't mind bashing some gates for fun just to get a feel of what it's like, but I don't think I'll ever find myself competing.

Disclaimer: the above stated is not necessarily technically sound nor is it correct. Rather, it is a description of how certain movements and turns "felt" to this rookie.

[D.T.]

@ D.T you ride a cross-under in slalom?

We are talking generically about gs (large radius) and slalom (smaller radius) turns, not actual racing.

[felix]

thanks D.T. for the clarification. If racing is not the goal above statements make much more sens for me.

[mackDan]

The slalom turn (short radius, quick) is just that ,short duration and quick on the new edge, quick on to the next edge. The unload/load push/float cycle is quicker and maybe easier to deal with as long as its within your range of riding comfort. When it gets to quick you get behind in the cycle and end up sitting back or your body enters the turn after your board and you crash out. So this is maybe easier for a new rider to deal with since their body is already moving a lot just trying to keep the board on its carving edge. If the speed is just right it matches the riders ability/desire to stay in control. When you get going beyond your ability you crash because you can't keep up.

So now think about the big turn long carve. Keep that board stable and on edge for a prolonged period of time. Much harder for the newer rider. Much more loaded time, a lot less unloaded transition time (percentage time) and a lot less push/float cycle (all push). This requires a stable upper body and a rider who is in tune with the riding style which is little adjustments to be stable. Harder to do for a new rider who, again, is fighting constantly to stay on edge. So in this case your crashing out early in the long turn, because you can't be stable (the reverse of the SL turn), and the better you get the longer bigger turn you can hold.

So yeah, learn the SL turn-fast pump. then gradually lengthen the stability and the turns.

[John E]

Dan - I agree with your analysis. I think where slalom turns may benefit the novice is in turn initiation. However, if speeds climb and one can't stay up with the frequency, the whole thing falls apart.

I have worked on holding a carve on a GS turn all the way to an uphill attitude. I can do this in good conditions on the toeside but my heelside is still largely survival mode just getting around until I can do another toeside.

For solid GS turns, I am still wary of high speeds which may be necessary to hold the board in a decambered state through the turn.

I don't like to get hurt and willingness to fall is often the key to faster improvement.

Thanks for all the input.

[V*L*A*D]

old acura- you've got it backward:

try not to confuse long/short radius turns with sl & gs.

pretty big difference between event tech and freecarving tech.

think less, ride more, kick ass:biggthump

[wavechaser]

old acura- you've got it backward:

try not to confuse long/short radius turns with sl & gs.

pretty big difference between event tech and freecarving tech.

think less, ride more, kick ass:biggthump

Vlad - couldn't have said it better myself.

This is only my own opinion of course, but I am always surprised at the minute breakdowns of turning technique that are talked about here...I've gotten pretty darn good without ever having to think about it that much. Riding alot, and riding with riders who are the next ability level above you, is worth more than any dissection of turning technique. Essentially, it's monkey see, monkey do. I'm a monkey too - my racing has gotten a big step better just competing in the USSA RTTC a few weeks ago and watching the top riders, and getting that picture burned in my mind.

[felix]

Vlad - couldn't have said it better myself.

This is only my own opinion of course, but I am always surprised at the minute breakdowns of turning technique that are talked about here...I've gotten pretty darn good without ever having to think about it that much. Riding alot, and riding with riders who are the next ability level above you, is worth more than any dissection of turning technique. Essentially, it's monkey see, monkey do. I'm a monkey too - my racing has gotten a big step better just competing in the USSA RTTC a few weeks ago and watching the top riders, and getting that picture burned in my mind.

Thumbs up to Vlad - I also hate the confusion between slalom (thats racing only for me) and short turns and GS/long turns.

Same for me - since I train with other people who occasionally race Europecup (attaining up to top 15 places and podiums on FIS races) my rocketed upwards. Just competing didn't cut it for. It's hard to improve if you're on your own or only with people below your ability level.

[John E]

Vlad - I stand corrected. Someone on an earlier post drew this analogy. I know that slalom / GS terms really apply just to racing. I have never raced - I have no desire to. It really is just short -vs- long radius turns.