Skier racing poles or snowboard panels?

[Chuck]

I would like to get some input from the racers, coaches, and anyone else that has thought about or tried racing.

I race in a local racing league that travels from Ohio to Western NY. I have also raced USASA series events. The local racing league is CMSC, they originally formed for ski racers and have had very good success bringing in ski racers for the last 30 or so years I guess. They started snowboard racing in '97 and three racers were at the first race. They even had BX races for a couple years.

Here is were I need some help. Currently they use Ski racing poles and set a modified GS SKI racing course. In about a month or so the racing committee will having a meeting to look at changes for next year. I would like to approach them with the idea of using snowboard panels. They usually set the course at the end of the day and run us with the lower class ski racers. My thinking is that the snowboard gates would be less threatening to the beginning skiers, and if the race sets were somewhat more of a snowboard set the skiers would be running more across the fall line and better able to control their speed. The benefit to the snowboarders is more of a snowboard race with better lines and no more hitting those F****** poles. I have brought this up before to some of the ski racers in my club and they kind of roll their eyes and change the subject.

Could you give me your views of the pro's and cons of using these two types of equipment for setting snowboard Courses. I especially welcome input from guy's like Phil, and Pat Moore, etc. I would really like to make this happen but I need real input from racers and coaches...

One of the resorts that we race at will actually groom the hill and set a course for just the snowboarders so I think that that may even be a possibility.

Thanks in Advance

Chuck

[philfell]

Skiers running snowboard panels is a bad idea. This is the reason. They have poles that can get caught in the panels. This makes is harder for the gate keepers, because they have to put on panels faster than normal. It also makes it unsafe for the skier because it puts them at risk of shoulder injuries if their pole gets caught just right.

Plus it is a HUGE expense. Snowboard stubbies tend to run about $40 per stubbie and panels run around $30, plus you need a tall pole for the panel that's another $20, also ski gate keys are too skinny to fit well with snowboard stubbies so you need a new key, another $115. It adds up fast for a speciality item. I don't know if you have the snowboard traffic to justify the expense, but I have the feeling if you did have enough snowboard participation you would already have the gear.

On a final note, long live Swain.

[Chuck]

Thanks Phil...

Swain has the best groomers, and that head wall! How you know Swain?

Good point about the panels and ski poles. We have probably 20 or so snowboarders at a popular race and about a dozen at a small race... this year. We cross 2 USASA districts, Northern Ohio and Western New York. Both have slowly brought the numbers of Alpine races down over the years. I was Thinking that maybe CMSC might attract some of those racers that wanted to do more races during the season. After all you don't get good unless you practice. I also think if the races were more snowboard oriented it would help to bring in better racers. Right now the program is kind of an afterthought and I would like to make it more serious, to attract more and better racers. As far as gates, a group of us have our own that we bought to set up for practice. If it meant we could set real panels I would buy them myself.

Thanks again

Chuck

[philfell]

I learned how to snowboard at Swain and did my first ever snowboard race ther in '92.

It's funny that headwall used to be a big deal for everyone who raced there. Since I've lived out west and have gone back that thing makes me laugh. If you can get enough speed you can just about ollie the entire pitch on Wheels.

Good luck with the snowboard gate set-up. You might want to talk to Jonah DePasquali (SP), I think he works at Bristol these days. He could probably offer some advice also.

[Chuck]

Hey... thanks for the input. I'll look up Jonah, we race at Bristol also. Its one of our longer races. You know Kissing Bridge? They groom and reset the courses for us, nice of them to do that.

Thanks again,

Chuck

[philfell]

Kissing bridge was the first place I ever rode a PJ. It was a Burton demo......probably in '91 maybe '92?

[patmoore]

I had the best of intentions about setting one of Okemo's NASTAR courses with snowboard gates starting a week ago but had a mishap.

I was pacesetting (on skis) Friday, Feb 23rd on a course that someone else had set with standard gates. The green course went smoothly but there was a cranker at the bottom of the yellow course that I couldn't negotiate. I wound up straddling the gate and launching out of both skis and poles before getting the breath knocked out of me. My ribs hurt but I had no one to relieve me so I worked the timing shack for a couple of hours. Relief arrived and I called the ski patrol. They insisted that I ride the sled down (protocol) and they examined me and then my wife took me to the local walk-in clinic. The Xray only revealed a small crack and the lungs looked good. I took Saturday off and we drove back to CT Sunday morning. On the drive home I started coughing up blood so I went to the emergency room at Hartford Hospital where I was admitted with a cracked rib, a fractured rib, and pneumonia. I was discharged after several days and am feeling a whole bunch better although I'm down ten pounds. My doctor is an avid skier and I was kind of hoping he'd give me his blessing to compete in the NASTAR Nationals at the end of this month but he consulted with a chest-cutter friend who said that falling on the ribs before they're fully healed runs the risk of puncture of the lungs.

Can't wait for next year.....

[timinor]

Have you thought about setting a snowboarder only course using the "brushie" gates. They are stubbies with a nylon brush sticking out of the top. They don't fit into anyone's rule book but they are cheap, easy to set, and easy to carry.

[Chuck]

Pat:

Hope you are feeling better... Damn. I don't mean to be flippant but do you have stories like that ridding a board and hitting the poles? I guess I am pretty lucky, when I hit them I usually hit them across my side or chest and they just knock me on my a$$. Thanks for the input and I hope you heal well.

Timinor:

Setting another course is an option as 3 of the 8 hills we race at set a course for snowboarders. I also believe that all the hills we race at set alpine courses for USASA. I have to get info from the hills themselves about the logistics of it tho... Getting the stubbies and the panels isn't really an issue as I will buy them myself, if there is no other option. I already have some.

Thanks

Chuck

Keep it coming guy's... I really need your help to make this happen...

[neil sunday]

now is the time to look at reliable racing, and world cup supply, etc... they often have end of season sales on limited stock tripanels, or stubbies. we purchased 40 tripanels two years ago at something cheap -- like $5.00 per tripanel. they are all blue, but still serve the purpose...

if buying 27mm diameter tall break-a-way gates, you can usually get by using the "stab" in type, which will not need to be screwed in, thus saving you time during course setting. i believe the "stab-ins" are cheaper compared to a 10" screw base...

as far as stubbies are concerned- you dont need the FIS approved "hollow-thumpers" that are used in USSA and FIS level events. You can purchase polyethylene (i think that's what it is) stubbies out of reliable racing for approx $22.50 per gate. they work fine, but tripanel slide off of them really easy, compared to the FIS approved larger diameter stubbies. It's a trade-off if you are watching your budget.

[philfell]

The smaller reliable stubbies, I really like, but my athletes hate them. I like them because they are so much lighter and I can carry more while traveling. My athletes hate them because after a few years when they get cold they sting like no other. When they were new they stayed forgiving in cold temps., but now they get really stiff in the cold.

[timinor]

Does anyone use the "brushies" for training or races. They have got to be the easiest and lightest to set and they won't hurt your shin.

[wavechaser]

Does anyone use the "brushies" for training or races. They have got to be the easiest and lightest to set and they won't hurt your shin.

Training yes, but races no - not practical...for one thing it is too hard to tell when/if someone rides over the brush instead of around it, and you cant attach a panel to it of course.

Brushes are best used to train for correct line - i.e. you set one brush just above the gate (and stay above it entering the turn), and set one brush just below the gate (and stay above it exiting the turn).

[jtslalom]

Chuck,

My local mountain used the same stubbies for snowboard gates that the ski school used for teaching little kids how to turn. There were plenty of them between both the ski school and race department. We also had one race league for college students that raced both skiers and snowboarders. I can definately say that there was never a course set that was good for both the skiers and the snowboarders. I don't know if it was the setter or if it just can't be done. Good luck.

[alpinegirl]

bristol mountain does indeed have panel gates (they're practically brand new) and honestly should be able to set them up if requested. just be warned that this takes a good deal of persuasion and it does not guarantee that an appropriate course will be set.

jonah d is a great resource, however his pull at the mountain for race related events is very minimal. you can try going through BSSA to get a hold of whoever is actually in charge of coordinating these events. or you can try going through steve howie, the director of the ski school who can occasionally give a clear answer and help hook you up (585-374-1160).

holiday valley and holimont do own and use triangle panels for snowboard racing.

[Chuck]

Thanks for all the input

Alpinegirl:

Thanks for the heads up one the three resorts, especially the phone #...

Can anyone give viable reasons for using the stubs as opposed to the ski poles?

Chuck

[Guest dragon fly jones]

Lighter, Easier move and set, one man, a bag o gates and drill will get yout set in 25 minutes out there. Long poles you need help and besides if your ever going to race USASA or USSA these are the gates uses in/for standardized training for snowboard events.

Long poles are absolete for snowboarding.

If the ski team there has gates with broken shafts above the hinge say about 8-12 inches buy em wrap em in plumbers foam and viola snowboard gates on the cheap. When your a coach you gotta get creative sometime.

[neil sunday]

long poles will shatter under the pressures of a tight line that we run in snowboarding, especially in giant slalom where the speeds are higher, the impact lower on the boot and the board carving more across the fall line than down the hill in slalom.

www.reliable racing.com has 12" polyurethane gates for $15.00 per gate. i'm travelling to nationals with 15 or 20 in my travel bags.

like DFJ said, bag o' gates, drill, wrench, and 25 minutes... instant course...

[philfell]

That works OK for training, but not a race event. You can set a course faster with ski gate than snowboard gate for a race. Setting a snowboard course you need setter with stubbies, guy to screw, guy to put tall pole, guy to attach panel. A ski course you need a setter with a stack of tall poles, and a guy to screw.

Like I said there is one issue that is saftey related with skiers using snowboard panels to race with, and the problem with keeping the panels attached because of the ski poles, but I already stated all this.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

yeah that is race, MR.

Somedays you feel like a full lay full some days down and dirty setting.

I did leave all the other crap out as did Mr. Fell. Let us not GS ski sets which require the same deal -helpers, screwers, panel dude, guys standingin your sight line and the most important one, the guy to tell the course setter how great he is and a select few hangers on that used to race to genuflect around the course and indeed let us not forget the setter him/herself to provide over acting (oh the snow) and drama (there is an spot of ice) so as to rival a telenueva hospital scene. Okay not a fair assesement but funny.

[philfell]

Chuck, all I wanted to say is that I disagree with your statement that is faster to set a snowboard course.

The ski teams set faster and with less people than we can manage to pull off.

[wavechaser]

...Let us not GS ski sets which require the same deal -helpers, screwers, panel dude, guys standingin your sight line and the most important one, the guy to tell the course setter how great he is and a select few hangers on that used to race to genuflect around the course and indeed let us not forget the setter him/herself to provide over acting (oh the snow) and drama (there is an spot of ice) so as to rival a telenueva hospital scene. Okay not a fair assesement but funny.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[wavechaser]

Chuck, all I wanted to say is that I disagree with your statement that is faster to set a snowboard course.

The ski teams set faster and with less people than we can manage to pull off.

Phil - it was a blast to meet you and all the other riders and coaches at Bromley last weekend. I had a great time and learned a ton - especially about racing in mega-ruts. Even though I got 36th it was cool to be representing the over 40 crowd! The USASA won't seem like it measures up now, but at least it's a way to race snowboard panels, and I'm lucky to be in the SVT series with Scott running it.

I took some photos and will post them on BOL sometime in the next week.

Best of luck to you and your team wherever you go - you've got a good thing going there and quite the life! Hope to see you at Northstar.

-Rick

[Guest dragon fly jones]

You ingnorant slut (what TV show). I know I know. Dudes sense of humor.

I KNOW what you wanted to do man, (hater) so you better stay away from USASA nats dude, I am coming for you, I will put wax stop on your skis. YES PHIL SKIS people so he is suspect at best.

Nah kidding man, some days we just set stubbies and that is a one man job at least for a superhuman like me, I have seen your arms and you WOULD need a wrencher.

Sorry I am in a snit right now.

Wavey - good on you man - remember that hard feeling from Bromley and take it to flatstar errr NothernFlats uhhh Tahoe and crush the unwashed masses. Except for one of Phils guys who is stupid fast. But he is beatable, talk about his baby momma in a bad way, that seems to work on most guys.

God I am not well.

[wavechaser]

DFJ - :lol: ...thanks for the comments...whatever got into you though man, I hope you can get it out...soon. :)

Phil's fast USASA Legends guy - I believe you are referring to Jimmy - went OC this year, which I give him HUGE props for at this age!! IF I do well in Legends this year I will likely join him in OC next year. It became obvious to me at Bromley that If you REALLY want to keep improving, no matter what your age is, you've got to race the riders who are WAY better than you. Besides, what would be better at age 45, another Legends medal or a top ten OC finish? (Rhetorical question.)