shane groshong Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 So I have now broke two shoulder bolts on TD2 standards. Both have come on the heel bail shoulder bolt. I purchased these binding last march and only have about 10 days on them, bolt broke about two weeks ago. I order all new replacement parts (bail, spring lug, spring, heel block, and shoulder bolt). The next day I rode the bolt broke again. So is anyone upgrading the bolt to a stronger material. Now some of you would say contact Fin. I have, two email, and two phone messages. No response. I feel this is a serious issue. No one wants to ride and feel their binding are going to fail. Any suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 they were gone to steamboat for a few days recently anyway, there is something wrong here. what boot are you using and how tight are your bails? Many people set their bails so tight that both their bails deform as well as their boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 So I am using Indy's. I can open my bails with two fingers. I have asked everyone I ride with who all use TD2's and have never seen this happen. I also have had these people watch me get in and each of them have not expressed a concern. I feel this is a pretty serious issue. In my opinion they have had over a week to respond, and i have had no response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I know a few people who have broke shoulder bolts, and other parts of Bombers, but this is a rare thing and usually after heavey useage. I hate to say it but it sounds like user set-up. The shear strength on the shoulder bolts is quite high, to break two new ones with very minimal usage seems a bit odd to me. I know for a fact that Fin and Michelle take safety and the quality of their product seriously. They were in Steamboat supporting the latest Race To The Cup event so they have been out of the office since Thursday. Give them another day to get back to you then try them again and see if you can talk it over with them and trouble shoot the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I can understand how one my suggest that this is user set-up, howevever we are talking about a shoulder bolt. This is not rocket science. Once is a fluke, two times is a situation. I will give them another day or as many as it takes. I want the most for Bomber and the products they make for us. I feel this is a serious issue especially with the currrent situation that Bomber is in. I have brought this to their attention to help with any future situations. I just want to feel like they care about a breakage problem. I don't wan't to get hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I understand what you are saying, but to me once is a fluke twice in less than a week is operator error somehow. If it was a flaw in the manufacturing procees or design then at that rate people would be snapping bolts daily. Is there a weird burr on the bail shoulder where the bolt goes through that would be scoring the bolt causing it to break? Is it the same bolt that keep breaking (ie rear heel bail, outside of the foot, ect.) or was the second one in a different location? I'm pretty sure they use a stainless steel bolt, the shear strength is very high. Your tib/fib should break well before you can create enough leverage to shear off a new bolt. Check every part of the binding that touches the bolt and feel for a sharp burr that maybe didn't get taken off while in the tumbler. Or some other reason that would cause a bolt to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Here's the deal. First time front foot heel backside. Next time rear foot heel backside. But every part was new (bail, heel block, bolt, spring lug, spring) all new parts, but same base plate. I know what you are saying, but after checking all parts and replacing everything I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Could be a bad batch of bolts. Improper heat treating, not stress relieved properly during manufacturing? Worn out thread rolling dies at factory. There are many possibilities. You could also have the most powerful carves on the planet. It could also be that they were overtightened. Stainless steel yields (breaks) with a different feel than normal bolts. I use them at work from time to time and have broken some too. Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Dave, I agree. People tend to be under the assumption that stainless is super tough. In fact many carbon bolts are much stronger, yet do not yield the corrosive properties as stainless. Thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 dude, if you're breaking stuff this often there is something unique about your setup from experience you will rip the the inserts from the board or your bones will break before you bindings consistantly fail with everything properly set up with the TD2. I have seen people do some wacky stuff, a friend of mine used to break bails, boards and boots on about every third day on the hill he would have as well as deform the ledges of his boots because he was convinced he had to ride a 21 inch(he had pretty short legs too!) stance, flat with the cuffs of his boots pointed out. After examining his setup I saw this and made a bet that if he let me do some tweaking he'd be fine for the rest of the season. I was right, he was fighting his own stance in a very rugged boot, on a binding that had no give(td1) on a big stiff GS plank, when I toned it down for him a little he stopped busting up everything. my point is that even if you can't see it there may be a hidden factor here that you can't see, I have literally ripped cateks and bombers out of boards and detroyed boots and bones and the only thing even close to what I'd call a failure was that I bent some bails on my cateks. I have had plastic bindings explode though, but even then it was on the outer limits of normal use. BTW I weigh 250 or so and used to ride pretty aggressively so I am no lightweight either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 I was under the impression that stainless is good in two areas, if it needs to be strong but flex a little(it would bend instead of shear away) more and where corrosion is a issue. Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Bobdea, I am riding a 20 inch stance, I am 6'1'' tall. I am riding indy's ( stiff). 3 degree toe lift, 6 degree heel, and both times it happened on a donek axxess 182. First time front foot, next time back foot. I am 225lbs so I am definitely not small. I also rode rossi's 190 and 184, and just started riding a Tinkler 185, no breakage. I see what you are saying, but come on. Shoulder bolts should not break. I rode burton race plates last year which flex and allow you to gain momentum, a stiff binding allows none of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 what I am saying is that there is something going on that must be causing this somewhere, bad bolts does sound possible, I broke four derailers in about a week when I was a little kid, it turned out that three of them were junk to begin with due to bolts failing in the same spot after replacing them enough and waiting for a new order to come in I never broke one again. the guy at the store seemed to think that the factory must have been using bad hardware so it's possible. it is also possible that there is something going on that is causing unusual stress on the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Could be a bad batch of bolts. Improper heat treating, not stress relieved properly during manufacturing? Worn out thread rolling dies at factory. There are many possibilities. You could also have the most powerful carves on the planet.It could also be that they were overtightened. Stainless steel yields (breaks) with a different feel than normal bolts. I use them at work from time to time and have broken some too. Dave R. Good points all. Most have had a binding release unexpectedly. It is both dangerous and un-nerving to say the least. Shane is a big, strong rider. He gets after it and in doing so must commit to the carve. I am certain it is part of why he bought Bombers. They are burly, and we all trust them to hold us securely on our snowboards. Lets hope the issue is resolved quickly. There is allot at stake. No one, including myself, wants to ride with wonder! I know that Shane is riding frequently and is anxous to have the confidence with all have with Bombers restored. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Bobdea,I am riding a 20 inch stance, I am 6'1'' tall. I am riding indy's ( stiff). 3 degree toe lift, 6 degree heel, and both times it happened on a donek axxess 182. First time front foot, next time back foot. I am 225lbs so I am definitely not small. I also rode rossi's 190 and 184, and just started riding a Tinkler 185, no breakage. I see what you are saying, but come on. Shoulder bolts should not break. I rode burton race plates last year which flex and allow you to gain momentum, a stiff binding allows none of this. Shane, looking forward to seeing you put the meat to the Tinkler 185cm "Ryan McDonald". I know you have been leaning toward wider boards. Glad to see it stay in the PNW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 Thanks Bryan. Look forward to riding with you in the upcoming weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Any word? Makes me wonder on every turn. Sure be good to nip this in the bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Emailed and things are being taken care of. Thanks for all the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulk Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I broke one bolt last year.. found that I let my boot get a little loose in the binding over the course of a few days, causing the heel bail to bend, this in turn created an alignment issue with the shoulder bolts...essentially loading the bolts at an angle NOT 90 degrees to the centerline. Now, I make certain to micro adjust the bails using the lugs as a guide, to assure everything squares up. Assemble shoulder bolts with locktight on the threads, and bomber butter on the pivot surface.. After assembly the heel bail must move freely with no stickiness, otherwise readjust the lugs.. A side note: I destroyed the walking pads on my boots (deelux suzuka), particularly the heel pads, this contributed to the bent heel bail because the boot no longer wanted to sit square in the binding. Long story short...check the entire system, boots to bindings. check for bent bails, bad heel pads, bad alignment, and lastly a bent plate.. wish you good luck, and safe turns. Edit: didn't see your last post when I started this one..Let us know how it all turns out... PK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrocks Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Emailed and things are being taken care of. Thanks for all the input. Great! Do you mind telling us the probable cause and solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 I can open my bails with two fingers. Your bindings are sized too loose. You are excessively cyclicly loading them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Another failure mechanism to consider is improper (i.e. lack of) preload. Lack of preload is the #1 reason that fasteners fail!!! Yes, you can overtighten bolts causing problems (i.e. shear failure of threads, yielding of the bolt...). The purpose of preload is to minimize the adverse affects of fatigue loading on mechanical properties and component/fastener life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carp Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Guy's. I've got the Indy's and the TD2 step-in's. Basically sized the bail and ramp for the sole of my boot. I didn't do any adjustment with the bolts on the side of the front bail. Is this something I should do? Now I'm getting a little worried. Is the allen wrench bolt on the side of the front bail for fine tuning the tightness of the front bail? I guess I'm just looking at how to do it, what to do, and what not to over/under do with adjusting these bindings. Some pics might help too? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Guy's. I've got the Indy's and the TD2 step-in's. Basically sized the bail and ramp for the sole of my boot. I didn't do any adjustment with the bolts on the side of the front bail. Is this something I should do? Now I'm getting a little worried. Is the allen wrench bolt on the side of the front bail for fine tuning the tightness of the front bail? I guess I'm just looking at how to do it, what to do, and what not to over/under do with adjusting these bindings. Some pics might help too? Thank you. The micro-adjustment you're asking about is done by threading/unthreading the bails into or out of the shoulder bolt. If you start to see the threads, as in the picture below, you've gone too far. That pic is from this article, you might find it helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane groshong Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 This is really getting interesting. It seems everyone has something to say on this topic about sizing and so on. Everyone knows your boot shell changes size during the day based on temp. A good fit should fit all day and will have slight variations. The binding has its own issues if you need to micro adjust during the day to have your boot sized correctly, and not break bolts. A good fit is a good fit. It seems since I brought this up more people are talking about shoulder bolt breakage. Maybe the shoulder bolt should be upsized to a point were this is not a concern under any micro sizing issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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