SunSurfer
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Posts posted by SunSurfer
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Check out the latest Donek video for a soft boot plate equipped board.
Sean carves with ease in chopped up snow!
SunSurfer
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From the photos it looks like the brackets on the bottom of the aluminium plate are welded on. Am I correct?
Looks solidly put together. Watch out for wear on the aluminium where the steel bolts rub.
You seem to have your binding centres directly over the axles of your system.
The photos of the Canadian team showed both front and rear bindings were several centimetres inside the plate axles.
I set up my plate with a 50cm stance and the 61.5cm interaxle distance on the UPM insert system. Bindings were equidistant from plate centre and axles were equidistant from board effective edge centre.
Comments from Fin in another thread suggests possibly better board/plate performance with greater interaxle distances.
SunSurfer
PS: Happy to send you a copy of my plate design construction method as a .pdf file if you're interested.
e-mail me at the address below
aj dot mckenzie at clear dot net dot nz
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The online version of the article can be down loaded by clicking the appropriate icon at the bottom of the screen.
pages 30-41 cover the Trench Diggers article.
SunSurfer
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To really comment we would need to see more detail of the mechanical connection between snowboard, hinges and plate. Also some more detail about plate construction.
The biggest problems in any design are
1/ firmly attaching plate to mechanicals, and mechanicals to board and dealing with the twisting forces that occur with each turn.
2/ constructing an accurate slide component that has sufficient motion allowed for (5-8mm). As interaxle distance increases then the distance needed increases.
3/ dealing with the wear created by the hinge and slide movements that occur with each turn.
Lowrider, BlueB and I have all made functioning, home made, isocline plate systems and enjoyed the benefits.
I look forward to seeing more detailed information about your design.
SunSurfer
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No winding up intended here.:)
I deliberately didn't post my own settings 'cause I've not been riding a standard plate.
It seems particularly important to me that people setting up plates, on 4x4 mounts in particular, are clear about what works in terms of the relationships between bindings and axles, and the plate to the board.
4x4s will rarely have the interaxle distances that are possible on a UPM setup.
The guys in Colorado are clearly starting to get some feel for this. Their information will be most useful if their comments are clear and unequivocal in their meaning.
SunSurfer
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Just reading a Snowman post in the Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems thread, about isocline plate setup, and the results he got. I found it a bit ambiguous.
Separating out the tuning from the already very long .... ASP Systems thread may also be helpful.
For anyone commenting how to tune these plates we need to know -
1/ Inter-axle distance with board flat (no camber/rocker)
2/ Inter-axle centre setback/forward from recommended snowboard binding mount centre or effective edge centre.
3/ Binding centre-to-centre distance on plate. (stance width)
4/ Stance centre setback/forward relative to interaxle centre and, therefore, also to board centre.
Some comment about plate stiffness may also be useful especially if it's not a standard Apex Comp./Donek/Bomber/Sigi Grabner/Oxess or other recognised manufacturer.
SunSurfer
NB: I think of all these plates as either Hinge + Slide/Hinge (H+SH) or Isocline designs. HSH is self explanatory. Isocline refers to the fact that they keep the rider's feet on the same angle as they ride. This classification clearly separates these designs from the Vist/Hangl/S-Flex type designs.
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I have not been paying attention lately so forgive my foolish question, but the question still remains...
So that you can keep up with the rest of us, because the plate users will leave you staring at their trenches!!
Seriously now. Pay attention!
I made my own plates and rode them in New Zealand in Aug Sept this year on some new snow, packed snow and hard pack/ice. There are threads where I describe design/construction & experiences. I am not trying to sell you anything.
I am not talking about Vist/Hangl/S-Flex plates. They do not have this design principle.
Advantages:
1/ Fatigue reduction. The design reduces the work your knees & quads need to do so you can carve for longer, both runs on any given day and days in a row.
2/ Bump smoothing. You can carve for longer because you can carve in a wider range of conditions. The plate reduces the transmission of bumps to the rider.
3/ Carve better & faster while retaining control. You can feel your edge very well in the carve, but the bumps don't throw you off balance nearly as much.
4/ They transform your old snowboard's performance. I compared a 1997 167cm Avalanche "Chris Saunders" all mountain board equipped with a plate of my design, with a 2003 171cm Coiler AM. The Coiler lost out in cut up afternoon snow.
"Criticisms"
Weight: Depends upon design. My plate added just under 2kg for all components, to board & bindings. Rapidly, you do not notice it on chairlifts, or in falls.
Slow speed feel/control: How slow do you want to go? In my experience, once the board is carving at any speed then a plate equipped board is under control. Like anything, it takes a little while to get used to a different "feel".
Smiling muscle fatigue: It feels so good you smile like a maniac.
Overall, for carving snowboarding any snow that is not powder I would prefer a plate equipped board.
SunSurfer
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I pushed it as hard is I could all day .........And how do your quads feel at the end of the day, compared with a full day without a plate??
SunSurfer
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<object height="385" width="480">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auTezi6uIxA?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>
Keas are a large, alpine parrot in New Zealand. They are cheeky, clever and potentially very destructive. They love ripping out the rubber from car wiper blades and window seals.
This YouTube vid is just an example of their mischief!
SunSurfer
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Hi Blue B,
Nice to see some more DIY plate makers / designs coming out of the woodwork.
Like Sean Martin, I wouldn't trust steel machine screws in a UHMWPE thread. The plastic "creeps" or stretches under a load. In my own DIY version, everything had an SS nut on the other end, plus Loc-Tite.
You could fairly easily inset a pair of T-nuts on the underside of each lateral block as a solution and still maintain the same clearance.
SunSurfer
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imagine you're going to be riding a mountain bike (forwards) down a rocky trail.
you're allowed suspension. but only on one end. you can have either front suspension, or rear suspension. which do you want?
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the (sine) attack is coming from the front of the board, so it's sensible to have it be the most articulated part of the interface. as in the MTB comparison above, the rider is located primarily behind the front articulated mount, and the rear pivoting mount.
(which suggests to me we want our front binding behind the sliding pivot, and our rear foot closer to the pivoting .. pivot.)
Faulty pre-supposition: The plate pivots are not a shock absorbing suspension system.
The plate's flex will produce a degree of shock absorption but STIFF plates are thought at present to produce the best performance. The board also absorbs and releases the forces applied to it.
The pivots allow the board to move independently of the plate. The motion of the snowboard is essentially identical whether the "(sine) attack" (upwards/ downwards deflection and release) is applied at the front or rear of the board, or whether the hinge/slide unit is front or back. I've tried it on a test bed setup and seen this with my own eyes.
Only a decellerative force, applied from the nose, along the length of the board, will produce a difference in motion when the hinge/slide is at front rather than at the rear. Bending of the board will occur between the nose and the hinge only pivot. So, with the hinge/slide at the front clearly more of the board is available to soak up the decellerative force.
SunSurfer
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The placement of the pivots of a plate system do change how the entire system feels dramatically. Some of the conclusions from last year where as you went wider with the pivots the board became more stable and powerful.
We are limited in our range of pivot placements by the UPM pattern. However, the Anton Glider ski design got me thinking about both the free flex benefits of a plate AND the potential ability of a plate to more evenly spread the downforce from the rider along the edge of the snowboard.
Consider 3 theoretical scenarios with a plate equipped and cambered snowboard.
a) plate pivot(s) apply the rider's weight at a single point in the centre of the effective edge.
b) plate pivots apply the rider's weight to either end of the effective edge.
c) plate pivots apply the rider's weight at points 1/4 & 3/4 along the effective edge i.e. if EE = 160cm, then at EE 40 & 120cm points.
When the board is tilted onto its' edge -
a) the downforce is concentrated in the middle of the board, and the board's imperfect torsional rigidity results in a gradually decreasing amount of downforce being applied towards each end of the effective edge.
b) the downforce is applied where the board is already in contact with the snow at either end and minimal/no downforce is applied in the middle to decamber the board.
c) downforce is applied that both decambers the board and applies downforce effectively at tip and tail, resulting in a more even distribution of downforce along the edge. Result: better edge hold, the board feels more stable and powerful.
This is my hypothesis as to why Fin observed what he did. It just may be that we may need to go wider than UPM to get optimal pivot placement, and that the optimal pivot placement distance may be board stiffness, torsional rigidity, & effective edge specific.
SunSurfer
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On the Anton website there is a video where the inventor talks with a past freestyle skiing champion. He describes the system as allowing the ski to flex completely independently of the binding chassis above.
The chassis does appear to possibly have two attachment points to the ski.
It looks a little like a plate with a spring tip/tail pressure system created by the springs.
Watching the video shows the beautiful paired grooves created by the riders as the skis carve cleanly throughouut the turns.
Intriguing & thought provoking design with a ski with NO camber (see below). Consistent comment from the reviews I read was how easy it made it to make the skis carve, and how the spring+damper system made the ski tuneable for flex & very damped(a little like M Tinkler's SnowStix)
Review @ http://www.exoticskis.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=38
including a number of detailed close-up photos.
(excerpt)
---------------------------------------------
Technical Ski Data (if known):
- Proprietary flex pattern with zero-camber
- Wood core/triax fiberglass sandwich w/o metal
- CNC machined mounting point inserts
- Stainless Steel mounting hardware
- Aircraft-alloy anodized aluminum chassis
- CNC machined from custom extrusions
- Waterjet-cut, unidirectional composite main leaf springs
- High performance polyurethane elastomer chassis springs and Ultra high molecular weight polyethylene bearing material
- 360 degree-wrap edge, 2+ millimeter,
- Dura Jet carbon racing base (US made, like PTEX 4000 but more
durable and claimed to be faster)
- Rossignol Axium bindings
The skis are designed to have no camber (you read right). The suspension system provides the camber and tension of that camber. Take the skis off the suspension, they would lay flat on the bench. Bolt the suspension system and they are "cambered" for action. Odd, but cool.
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<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/849345" frameborder="0" height="300" width="400"></iframe>ExoticSkis: 08-09 Anton Gliders Carbon EX Skis from ExoticSkis on Vimeo.
Watching the video on Vimeo, the skier now moves on the slope like someone on a carving snowboard!!
This concept may well be the next step on from where our current hinge/slide plates are.
If I was a racer looking to get a step ahead of the opposition I'd be looking at either working with this guy or finding a partner like Apex Composites / M Tinkler to tweak the concept for a racing snowboard.
SunSurfer
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I'm Working on a split plate hoping to end the debate on peddling.
Something like this design?
OR
like this part of the Bomber HFP but now allowing the ends to twist in a controlled way relative to one another?
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=252984&postcount=110
SunSurfer
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This model will soon be released due to overwhelming consumer demand. It features a 10 inch (25.5cm) long forward extension beyond the front binding inserts with a permanently attached Manfrotto ball head for maximum versatility in camera angles. The same qualities that give the rider a more stable ride translate into a better mounting point for the camera.
Sunsurfer ;)
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Intriguing video, with the ski tracking well and clearly independently from the binding plate/springs mechanism floating above. The theory behind the system would seem to be that having the attachment points towards tip and tail of the ski ensures maximum edge in contact with the snow. It would argue for a performance benefit for plate attachment points significantly farther apart than the current UPM pattern. Whether the spring part of the suspension creates its' own performance gain, or, whether one could use a hinge/slide plate as this thread has been discussing but with a long plate and attachment points towards tip and tail to achieve the same effect. A downside would seem to be that as you approach tip & tail the ski/board core becomes thinner and creating attachment points of adequate strength becomes more and more of a problem. SunSurfer
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Probably the most suitable mountain for carving in australisia is mount hutt located in Canterbury, nz. Top to bottom wide groomed slope (100+ metres in terms of width).
If you're coming to NZ, Cardrona is where I learned to carve and is better than Coronet Peak / Treble Cone or Remarkables in the Central Otago region. Cardrona is a good intermediate field with reasonably wide runs and Queenstown has plenty of direct flights from Aussie (as does Christchurch/Mt Hutt).
Turoa & Whakapapa in the North Island are more prone to bad weather, wet snow, have significantly narrower runs and less area suitable for someone just getting started.
Can't speak for the other, smaller fields like Mt Dobson, Ohau, Porter Heights etc.
SunSurfer
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after a significant number of people have experience on plates.
I rode a Riot this year with a plate and carved slopes all day that previously put the fear of God into me and had me skidding my turns!
And yes, the old Riot boards are stiff and have recoil to burn!
SunSurfer
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Looking to reduce wear on the sliding bearing UHMWPE surfaces by increasing the area in contact, much like the Donek plate has a plastic block around its' axle.
Thinking of using a connector nut, with its' thread drilled out to the axle diameter, to act in the same way. The steel will slide on the UHMWPE. This combination has a lower friction coeff. than plastic on plastic.
The height of the coupling nut will need to be taken into account in calculating the position of the bearing surfaces. But if you're up for following this recipe you should be able to work out how you'll do this in your version if you decide you want to use this idea.
I won't be trying it out till next year as I'm about to head off on an extended study trip overseas.
SunSurfer
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Thought I'd put this in the plate thread (as well as OT) as it's relevant.
Apparently Fischer came out with it about four years ago. Google turns up nothing for the US. Looks like there are sliding hinges at both ends, with the center fixed, but able to rise upwards as the ski flexes. Also some springs to dampen the movement.
<object width="480" height="385">Interesting in that it is a very different mechanical approach to the same problem.
SunSurfer
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqJGiyYGDRU?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object>
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Short term memory still needs time. If you see him in person he appears and acts completely normal (well at least pre-accident :)
Even minor head injuries, just concussion without loss of consciousness, can be dreadfully debilitating to highly functioning people.
Say you're an accountant, you can dress, wash and feed yourself, and drive to the office. But try and hold a train of thought, add up a column of numbers even with a calculator. "Now, where did I get up to??"
Mike may appear normal on the outside, but inside he may feel far from it. Depression and enormous frustration are common in head injury survivors. Recovery to its' fullest extent after significant head injury takes years, not weeks or months.
I don't know him at all, but those of you who are his friends, keep your support and encouragement going. Don't stop just because "he appears and acts completely normal".
SunSurfer
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I'm in NZ.
e-Bay Australia has the occasional carving board on it.
Trademe in NZ (no e-Bay in NZ) has a few come through too. I bought my 180 cm Riot Supercarve, 177cm Coiler AM, and an old Avalanche board with SnowPro race bindings all on TradeMe over the last two years.
Recently spotted a pair of near new Northwave 350 carving boots 27.5 on TradeMe just as an example of what can turn up.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Ski-board/Snowboarding-boots-bindings/Boots/auction-317874603.htm
SunSurfer
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Do steel pins in alloy slots remind anyone else of the wear problem that Fin's original alloy step-in heel units had? I guess time will tell if SG have a flaw in their plate design here.
SunSurfer
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Smart guy!
Before plates , Emery, Sno Pro, Nitro, etc all mounted two piece plate bindings directly to the boards, (said for the younger riders benefit, I know you know this all too well)
The insert placement used by Burton on their PJ boards & the multiple hole choices on their binding base plates allowed a limited range of stance angle choices.
I had a PJ for a while but don't have any suitable photos to illustrate.
Something similar to this might allow direct mounting of toe & heel blocks onto plates while still allowing some fine tuning of stance angles.
SunSurfer
I pushed it as hard is I could all day .........
Apex & Kessler partnership
in Carving Central
Posted
Apex and Kessler Announce Partnership to Produce World Cup Winning Snowboard Systems
Burlington, Canada & Braunwald, Switzerland, November 19, 2010 - Apex Composites Inc. and Kessler Engineering GmbH announced their commitment to extend their partnership in developing snowboards and binding interface plates through the 2014 Olympic Games.
“To provide optimum handling characteristics and speed through the gates, snowboard and race plate should be designed as a system and not independently of each other,” said Apex President Gerry Kavanaugh. “For that reason, we are thrilled to be working closely with Kessler who is clearly the top manufacturer of racing snowboards”.
Apex Composites Inc. of Burlington, Canada designed and manufactured the Apex Race Plate that the Canadian snowboard team rode to 12 World Cup podiums in 2010 and an Olympic Gold medal in Vancouver.
Kessler Engineering of Braunwald, Switzerland, developed the Kessler Shape Technology that has dominated snowboard racing since 2002. Kessler racers won 3 Gold, 1 Silver and 2 Bronze medals at the 2010 Winter Olympic Games.
Kessler and Apex are committed to investing in engineering, materials and production processes to provide winning platforms for snowboard racers through the 2010/11 season and onto the 2014 Winter Games in Sochi.
Kessler and Apex will continue to consult with the top World Cup racers and coaches in the world to provide design feedback and on-snow product testing.
As part of the partnership agreement, Kessler Engineering has been designated as the exclusive authorized reseller of Apex products in Europe.
"Aligning your team with the best in their respective fields is a key component to success.” said Mark Fawcett, Canadian National Alpine Snowboard Team. “In our world of alpine snowboarding this selection was an easy decision to make. Kessler Snowboards and Apex Composites are both at the forefront in their industries. Having them work together on projects will benefit everyone’s ride and accelerate the evolution of our performance based sport."
More information on Kessler and Apex Composites can be found at www.kessler-swiss.com and www.apexsnowboard.com.
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Who else will get their heads together????
SunSurfer