Jack: Question on Rotation turn and push pull method

[Istvan]

I think there is a very interesting momentum in Richard's mail. You can increase edge pressure at specific points of the carve with push-pull and rotation, but there is no free lunch at all, you pay for this either before or afterwards at other parts of the turn with lower edge pressure.

The question is timing, ie. when do you apply more pressure and when do you pay for it.

In the EC technique you initiate the turn with the rotation and have maximum 'pull' when changing edges, (so you pay for it before the turn) and therefore you get the maximum edge pressure in the middle of the (next)turn when you need it the most.

Kindest,

István

[Erik J]

After reading all of this I felt a tingle in my head, then a warm goo began to drip from my left ear. I looked down and a puddle of melted brain had formed on the floor below me. I envy people's ability to analyze their riding so technically. My neanderthal breakdown of my own riding would go something like, lean, drive, turn head, crush snow and ice, grunt, grunt, smile big. The ride back up would be something like, pretty cloud, stupid skidder stealing snow from black diamond, don't forget to club dodo bird on way home for dinner, grunt, sabertooth loin cloth too tight, grunt, grunt.

I know that what I'm reading is good stuff but when I look down to the floor and see brain fluid - oh gross, it's between the keys, too. Nowmyspacebardoesn'twork.

[kjl]

I love topics like these ;) Some people learn best by going out and riding, and others like me get all sorts of tasty goodness from stuff like this!

Interesting that people think the rotation occurs in order to drive the edge (near the nose) into the snow. That had not occurred to me.

I always thought that 1) the rotation happened during the edge transition (therefore it happens when you are standing up from the snow, not lying down on it) and 2) simply served to reverse the angular momentum of you and your board. i.e. if you stick a pole straight out from the snow surface (not straight up, but perpendicular to the snow surface) and you are in a full, say, regular toeside carve, you've got a fair amount of negative (clockwise) angular momentum around the axis defined by that pole, and by the time you've entered your heelside carve, you need to have reversed that angular momentum. I always thought the rotation the EC guys do during edge transitions was simply to aid in this.

But analytical ramblings aside, I ride a Swoard, but I do not ride EC style. I do (sometimes, and incompletely) ride with rotation in my edge transitions, and from personal experience, I will say that the beginning of each carve feels way more smooth and elegant when I put rotation into the edge transition. Normally, during an non-rotation toe-heel edge transition I pull my board up underneath me, fall downhill over the board, set the edge, and then experience about a 1/2 second period of trying to regain equilibrium (my body opens up in a little bit of a counterrotation that I have to fight, my tail might skid out, the pressure isn't quite right fore/aft, etc..) When I do a rotation toe-heel transition, everything is effortless - I pull the board up under me, fall downhill over the board while rotating, and am immediately and easily already in the next turn.

So, regardless of whether rotation is pushing the edge in, reversing my angular momentum, or simply a body memnonic to not counterrotate that works only for me, I don't really care; I tried it - when I remember to do it it makes my heelside turns feel amazing.

The board will follow by rotating (ie, skidding) in the direction you are rotating. As I said before, there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it's helpful if you're trying to learn to carve.

Interesting that you say this. When I exaggerate the rotation turn while not really laying it all out, but just cruise-carving on the flats (there are some shots of Patrice doing this in Lifted), the board does in fact follow by skidding (the smoothest, easiest skid ever ;) but nevertheless skidding). In a full, high speed, high angular momentum carve, that very same movement seems like a helpful thing for beginning the next carve. For me, anyways.

But, as everybody here is always fond of saying - try it out and use it if you like it. I would encourage people to try it not because I think it is necessary, but because (especially on heelsides) it feels freakin awesome.

[Jack M]

- To Jack: I believe that the push itself does increase edge preassure.

Welcome Istvan! Yes, I don't dispute that. It's the rotation that I think doesn't do anything significant. It may help you to get forward and pressure the nose at the beginning of the carve, but rotating at the waist simply cannot magnify pressure on the whole edge.

Basically it comes down to this (in my head anyway):

If rotation is working for you.... great. If you're just learning how to carve, my recommendation is to not do it. Needing to rotate towards the nose of the board on heelside implies that you are facing the edge of the board on toeside. This, imo, leads to many bad habits, such as bending over at the waist and reaching for the snow.

Also, I'd just like to say that I think this discussion has gone very well.

[D-Sub]

After reading all of this I felt a tingle in my head, then a warm goo began to drip from my left ear. I looked down and a puddle of melted brain had formed on the floor below me. I envy people's ability to analyze their riding so technically. My neanderthal breakdown of my own riding would go something like, lean, drive, turn head, crush snow and ice, grunt, grunt, smile big. The ride back up would be something like, pretty cloud, stupid skidder stealing snow from black diamond, don't forget to club dodo bird on way home for dinner, grunt, sabertooth loin cloth too tight, grunt, grunt.

I know that what I'm reading is good stuff but when I look down to the floor and see brain fluid - oh gross, it's between the keys, too. Nowmyspacebardoesn'twork.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

you and me both, bro. I "almost" understand some of it, so I must be HomoSapiens vs your neanderthal, but still not much.

heh. UNGH. CARVE!

[Istvan]

Jack,

Fully agree. Push-pull can increase edge preassure, rotation cannot.

As for the rotation it works for me, but I do not always do it, depends on the terrain. I feel that it helps me on very steep slopes to really lay it down and as a result of that to turn it almost uphill... and then to jump into the next carve.... But I guess on real steeps you need to rotate anyway if you carve low.

As for the use of it for beginners, I'm not an instructor, although I have tried to teach and convert a couple of friends from skis or softboots. Sometimes rotation helped them to understand that turns should not be initiated by pushing the butt out.... it also in line with the 'look to the point where you want to arrive' techniqe.

Cheers,

István

ps.: Erik and D-Sub: U R right, that's the point.... just carve.

[astrokel]

It may help you to get forward and pressure the nose at the beginning of the carve, but rotating at the waist simply cannot magnify pressure on the whole edge.

Wow what a great discussion ... Jack I believe you have it EXACTLY right... the rotation is for the initiation of the turn, in order to stay centered on the board which is necessary because of the "extreme" inclination you can't "feed the dollar" like on an angulated turn and slowly moved toward the back since the goal of the EC is to get as extended out toward the CENTER of the turn radius as possible. The extra edge pressure is not for the entire arc of the turn along the entire board but only for the front of the board at the initiation. The rotation is really important in order to stay centered on the board AND initiate the turn.

Needing to rotate towards the nose of the board on heelside implies that you are facing the edge of the board on toeside.

If you look at the sequence photos of Jacques you'll see that he's facing to the front of the board at the apex of the turn. The only time he is facing the edge of the board is at the entry of the turn initiating the rotation in order to hook up the front edge.

This, imo, leads to many bad habits, such as bending over at the waist and reaching for the snow.

Uhm I just reread the technique section in the Carver's Almanac during my vacation and there a part in there that addresses this point.

[Jack M]

If you look at the sequence photos of Jacques you'll see that he's facing to the front of the board at the apex of the turn. The only time he is facing the edge of the board is at the entry of the turn initiating the rotation in order to hook up the front edge.

Huh?? Look:

At the beginning of the carve he rotates his upper body to face the toeside edge. Then he bends at the waist, reaches for the snow, and is mostly facing the toeside edge for the duration of the carve. This wouldn't fly on ice. This is also why the EC guys generally have stronger heelsides than toesides.

[gdboytyler]

Then he bends at the waist, reaches for the snow, and is mostly facing the toeside edge for the duration of the carve. This wouldn't fly on ice. This is also why the EC guys generally have stronger heelsides than toesides.

That section looks pretty steep, and he makes a nice round carve. If that same section was ice, I doubt anybody could follow the same line, no matter what technique they use.

I keep hearing about carving on "ice", but I haven't seen any photos or video of anybody actually carving it up on "ice". I think it's a myth :D

When I've encountered "ice" in So Cal and in MI, if it's steep, I'm skidding, if it's shallow, I'm carving really shallow S-turns.

The EC guys have proved their style works on steep runs with good snow. Those are the conditions I look for (and usually get) when I'm out carving.

Guys that have rode with J&P say the style also works on "ice", but I haven't seen any footage of J&P on "ice".

[philfell]

I know many people who can rail that section, even if it's icy.

[astrokel]

Touche, JM he is facing the edge on toeside.

From the Carving Almanac:

Ideally, you want to find an instructor who carves exactly the way you want to carve. If you can't preview the instructor, there are a few approaches:

Even if you are a racer looking to improve on the Speed style of carving, you will get better training from an instructor who has a good handle on the low-to-the-ground G-force style.

If the instructor dismisses this style by saying "those guys have bad technique because they reach for the snow" it means the instructor is clueless about carving in general, since advanced carvers don't reach for the snow to skim their hands on the slope - they don't have to, because angulation, timing, and weight shift cause it to happen naturally.

It's OK to touch the snow, as long as you don't reach for it, and as long as you don't place any weight on that hand.

Ask the instructor how the technique should be changed in order to handle steep ice.

If the instructor says, "Use the same technique, just commit," the instructor may be clueless.

Steep ice calls for cross-through techniques.

Not saying that Scott's Almanac is the be all and end all but there are some good points... (and I'm not saying or implying that ANYONE is clueless, btw)

One point that I think applies is that any one technique might not be applicable in all situations and even within any one technique the way of applying that technique in any situation might differ from point to point depending on local conditions. I agree completely that EC is DEFINITELY not a beginner technique but cross-through definitely should be. The pre-rotation should be used judiciously when appropriate. To be stuck with any one way of doing anything is frankly BORING (for me at least) :) .

[Istvan]

My last addition to this topic: I've been to Zinal with the Swoard guys and they rode the same techniqe in the afternoons when the slope became sort of not nice with icy spots and smaller bumps with soft snow... they just cut through everything..... Does this fact add anything to the techniqe they ride? No. But they are damn good.....

Happy New Year to Ya!

István

[gdboytyler]

I know many people who can rail that section, even if it's icy.

I want to see some video. So I know what to do for the rare days that encounter ice.

[Peter Vu]

Jack,

I was fortunate enough to go carving with P&J last year at Zinal and Grimentz.

The sequences here were taken at Grimentz (5-10 minutes drive from Zinal). It's a main trail that takes skiers/boarders down a lift so it is usually quite busy and ....icy.

When I was there, it was bitterly cold and it had not snow for a long time. I can attest that P&J do carve on the steeps with snow conditions similar to the East Coast (I started carving in Montreal) and they can lay it down in "icy" or very-very hard snow.

But if "icy" = pure blue ice, then I have not seen them carve on blue ice BUT I *can*.....on a skating ring :rolleyes:

Cheers

[Jack M]

Not saying that Scott's Almanac is the be all and end all but there are some good points...

Are we reading it the same way? It's a little ambiguous, but I believe I agree with it. He seems to be saying that good carvers hands touch the ground as a side-effect of good technique - they can carve low enough that the ground just happens to be right there. Bad carvers REACH DOWN for the ground when they shouldn't, when the rest of their body is not close to the ground.

So, an instructor who says "those guys have bad technique because they reach for the snow" may or may not be clueless. If the rider is in fact reaching down for the snow, well, the instructor is not clueless.

NB - I did NOT just call Jacques Rilliet a bad carver. He has his own style that works very well for himself. I admire his EC carves, and all his videos. I just personally don't think it's a good model for a <i>new</i> carver.

[Jack M]

I can attest that P&J do carve on the steeps with snow conditions similar to the East Coast

Heh, well, I'd love to see it for myself. I hope someday they can make it to the ECES.

I do believe, however, that their heelsides are stronger than their toesides, no matter what the conditions.

[Peter Vu]

Heh, well, I'd love to see it for myself. I hope someday they can make it to the ECES.

I do believe, however, that their heelsides are stronger than their toesides, no matter what the conditions.

....or you can go to ECS .... ;)

[astrokel]

funny thing...I think we're all actually agreeing on something. I just read a statement... "it's fractal, the closer you look the more issues come up".

Jack it feels like you're primarily concerned with the new carvers figuring out stuff and don't want the point lost that reaching down is bad for them (which makes sense since that's what started this thread :) ).

I think the point about reaching is the what the viewers interpretation of reaching is.

Heck I've carved on blue ice before and after it I had NO idea what exactly I did and if you ask me how I did I could only shrug my shoulders :D .

[Guest rc30rob]

This may seem like a daft question but if you rotate to turn the board instead of foot steering and bodymovement and weight shift wont it wreck the knee joints(they are not a rotating joint)

[philfell]

I want to see some video. So I know what to do for the rare days that encounter ice.

Track down footage from the '98 Olympic Snowboard G.S. and watch Ross' second run. That course had some steep sections and it was as firm as it gets.

[Guest needanswer]

Thanks for all the info , I'm a bit surprised by the response.

I didn't actually get to practice much carving Thursday b/c there was a good deal of snow the day before at Tahoe. also the green areas were overrun by family over the X-mas / New Year week. I just surfed around blue runs at the top of the hill with the softest snow. I was able to switch to down hill edge using angulation and inclination documented in this site. I think the key was no skidding and a little bit of rotation to get things started.

on rotation, I don't know if this will shed some light. Both the Almanac and EC site say to rotate completely before edge change and during the carve you get back to your original position. For example , entering a carve, you could be rotated 40 degrees. Then in the middle of the carve , you're about 20 degrees then exiting the carve at the default 0 degree.

[Don]

All ways of riding a snowboard are better than not riding, as long as you are having fun and don't get hurt.:)

Carvers don't have to rotate to initiate a turn and neither do beginners. This is NOT about rotating to initiate the turn but rotating to stay in a carve while driving faster and/or steeper.

Rotate or not as you choose - But consider this:

I cannot self-evaluate my technique while riding because the information ( conducted along nerves ) does not reach my consciousness before the turn done. I plan moves ahead, initiate action ( try to move as I planned but mostly doesn't work as planned though ), then basically just react by reflex while in the turn. I can think about what may be happening in really tiny time slices but cannot really see what happens, even with video. So I try to verify by using a slower moving system.

So, bear with me please:

Try this, if you want. (disclamer - I am not liable for any injuries) Go to a good swivel chair, one that turns easily. Take off dirty shoes :). (Maybe even have a spotter.) Stand straight up on the seat with your weight on both feet. Steady now. Turn your shoulders/upper body slowly clockwise. Notice what happens to your feet. Turn in the opposite direction. Try turning slowly in one direction and then quickly in the opposite direction. Dismount. If your feet did not rotate in the opposite direction from your upper body - try a different chair!!

To put a fine point on it, when the torso rotates clockwise the feet and board try to rotate counterclockwise. For example, a goofy rider making a toeside turn with counterclockwise upper body rotation is applying a clockwise force to the board - this will increase the cut at the tail while simultaneously decreasing the bite at the leading edge. As when you were rotating on the chair, the force is only present while you are rotating, not before and not after. While the absolute amount of rotational force may not seem very large, especially when compared to the force of your mass decambering the board, it is applied very differently.

The decambering force is delivered perpendicularly to the board in two places - your leading foot and your trailing foot - and causes the tip and tail sections bend. (Put a board flat on the floor and stand on top of it.)

The rotational (or perhaps I should say 'counter-rotational') force is directed transversly. (Take any old noodly board and place it on the floor on edge at 90 degrees. Grasp it in the center and try to rotate it so that the tip comes straight up and the tail goes straight down into the floor. All boards are very good at transferring the force in this direction.) An important point is that all of the rotational force is delivered to the snow/ice/water thru a single point, not the entire length of the effective edge as is the decambering force. (In theory anyway, a line tangent to a circle touches it at one and only one point.) That point happens to be at the widest part of the tail. The edge at this point will cut deeper and therefore be able to hold against more force if it is sharper.

High speed turns that fail usually do so because the tail cannot follow in the trench (it skids). To make the tail better follow the trench you can:

(1) Move your center of mass rearward dynamically as you ride (easy to do but perhaps not a good compromise,) or move your bindings rearward. (I am not advocating either, simply stating options.)

(2) Rotate if you need. You can see uphill better, too!

P.S.

1. If you get 'locked' in a turn try rotating upper body to the outside of the turn. This should make the tail cut less deep (more shallow) so it can climb out of the trench easier. Yes it's counterintuitive, I know.

2. When carrying/storing your board use pieces of old garden hose 4 to 6 inches long to protect the fat edges of your board and your fingers!

Don

P.P.S. Remember, for your continued health you must inhale after every exhale.

[Jack M]

Don, go run that by Beckman and let us know how you make out.

[Guest needanswer]

Jack , is this the answer?

Don brought up something NEW (quote below).

EC and Almanac both say to fully rotate while you're on the uphill edge and at the end of the current carve (i.e. don't rotate "during" the carve)

If my quote from Don is correct , the benefits of rotation may just be a smooth exit from the current carve (via uphill tail shoving against the hill) and a quick solid entry to the next carve (via downhill nose edge diving into the hill).

If so, I'm convinced (like Jack and others here) that rotation does not have a big role during the carve unlike inclination and angulation; however, rotation does have a positive role in exit and entry of a carve.

it seems important not to only think of the toe side edge and the heel side edge, but to also think of the nose and tail of the toe side edge and nose and tail of the heel side edge. Without rotation, like Don mentioned, one can move COG from front to back or back to front to address this same issue.

how's my analysis?

the force is only present while you are rotating, not before and not after.

1. If you get 'locked' in a turn try rotating upper body to the outside of the turn. This should make the tail cut less deep (more shallow) so it can climb out of the trench easier. Yes it's counterintuitive, I know.

[Phil]

Try this, if you want. (disclamer - I am not liable for any injuries) Go to a good swivel chair, one that turns easily. Take off dirty shoes :). (Maybe even have a spotter.) Stand straight up on the seat with your weight on both feet. Steady now. Turn your shoulders/upper body slowly clockwise. Notice what happens to your feet. Turn in the opposite direction. Try turning slowly in one direction and then quickly in the opposite direction. Dismount. If your feet did not rotate in the opposite direction from your upper body - try a different chair!!

To put a fine point on it, when the torso rotates clockwise the feet and board try to rotate counterclockwise.

This example would show you how your board would react on a rail where there is no friction. On a board, you are on edge and can manipulate your board from your edges.

For example, a goofy rider making a toeside turn with counterclockwise upper body rotation is applying a clockwise force to the board - this will increase the cut at the tail while simultaneously decreasing the bite at the leading edge. As when you were rotating on the chair, the force is only present while you are rotating, not before and not after. While the absolute amount of rotational force may not seem very large, especially when compared to the force of your mass decambering the board, it is applied very differently.

The decambering force is delivered perpendicularly to the board in two places - your leading foot and your trailing foot - and causes the tip and tail sections bend. (Put a board flat on the floor and stand on top of it.)

The rotational (or perhaps I should say 'counter-rotational') force is directed transversly. (Take any old noodly board and place it on the floor on edge at 90 degrees. Grasp it in the center and try to rotate it so that the tip comes straight up and the tail goes straight down into the floor. All boards are very good at transferring the force in this direction.) An important point is that all of the rotational force is delivered to the snow/ice/water thru a single point, not the entire length of the effective edge as is the decambering force. (In theory anyway, a line tangent to a circle touches it at one and only one point.) That point happens to be at the widest part of the tail. The edge at this point will cut deeper and therefore be able to hold against more force if it is sharper.

A more accurate representation of what happens (when you are not on a rail or a swivel chair) can be done simply by standing up at your computer. Rotate your body toward your toeside. Feel where the pressure is under your feet - leading foot toes - trailing foot heel. This causes a twist in the board - twist is usually associated with skidding because you are pressuring one end of the board while flattening another. You can get away with carving like this if you have the other skills needed to tilt the board. In fact, it will give a decently strong initiation because you are pressuring the edge closer to the front of the board. The problem is that you are not pressuring the edge toward the tail as much with this rotation which will cause you to skid sooner than you would if you were lined up better and pressuring the whole edge.

An important point is that all of the rotational force is delivered to the snow/ice/water thru a single point, not the entire length of the effective edge as is the decambering force. (In theory anyway, a line tangent to a circle touches it at one and only one point.) That point happens to be at the widest part of the tail. The edge at this point will cut deeper and therefore be able to hold against more force if it is sharper.

Our line(the one tangent to the circle) is not a line, but a curve that is forming the circle and therefore is not contacting via a point, but an arc.

High speed turns that fail usually do so because the tail cannot follow in the trench (it skids).

Or because the nose was not pressured enough.

To make the tail better follow the trench you can:

(1) Move your center of mass rearward dynamically as you ride (easy to do but perhaps not a good compromise,) or move your bindings rearward. (I am not advocating either, simply stating options.)

(2) Rotate if you need. You can see uphill better, too!).

Again, if you are not in a swivel chair or on a rail, then it is counter rotation while tilting high on your toeside edge that would cause this as well(try standing up an rotating toward the heelside - pressure under the front heel and the trailing toes - in a toeside carve pressures the tail)

1. If you get 'locked' in a turn try rotating upper body to the outside of the turn. This should make the tail cut less deep (more shallow) so it can climb out of the trench easier. Yes it's counterintuitive, I know.

In addition to my above statement, this works when your center of mass is moving downhill across the board.

If my quote from Don is correct , the benefits of rotation may just be a smooth exit from the current carve (via uphill tail shoving against the hill) and a quick solid entry to the next carve (via downhill nose edge diving into the hill).

If so, I'm convinced (like Jack and others here) that rotation does not have a big role during the carve unlike inclination and angulation; however, rotation does have a positive role in exit and entry of a carve.

Probably not as much as you think. Again, rotation to exit is putting pressure on the front of the board in the new turn - good initiation, but unless you control it, you are not pressuring the tail well which will cause skidding later.

it seems important not to only think of the toe side edge and the heel side edge, but to also think of the nose and tail of the toe side edge and nose and tail of the heel side edge..

Yes - it is important to know where you are distributing pressure along the length of either edge.

Without rotation, like Don mentioned, one can move COG from front to back or back to front to address this same issue..

Yes, but there are also independent foot movements while centered on the board that can do the same thing. What do those independent foot movements tend to cause in the hips? Rotation and counter rotation - but now your upper body can remain quiet and the work is done closer to the board. The rotation and counter rotation caused by independent footwork is much less than actually driving rotation and/or counter rotation with the upper body.

Good comments needanswer.

The bottom line is that you can turn your snowboard however you want, but there are a lot of people who have spent a lot of time researching the most efficient and effective ways to make the board turn. If efficiency and effectiveness is your goal, then go with those movements. If efficiency and effectiveness are not your goal, turn the thing however you want as long as you are enjoying yourself.

For efficiency and effectiveness, there is this:

Why would you want to start your turn with the body part furthest away from you snowbaord?

If you can't properly drive your board with you lower body only you have flaws in your technique.