Madd 170 wins Nationals

[BlueB]

Originally posted by mirror70

To give the snowboarder a snowball's chance in hell. A skier running the wrong equipment on a snowboard course is still going to be hugely faster than a snowboarder running anything he wants.

Why does a ski have any less friction than a board? If you're on edge, they're the same, and if you're racing you're on edge.

Are you sure there wasn't any point? It seems like you just said that skis are constructed with different characteristics in mind, and as a result of that they are faster. Given that both tools work on exactly the same principals, does it not seem odd that the one which is demonstrably slower is also apparently aiming for different characteristics?

Exactly what I said - SL ski is much softer than a GS ski. GS ski is still compareable to GS board in stiffness. But trend IS towards softening...

Less friction because of lesser surface - no one is strictly just on the edge, especially while racing. J.J. is getting close, thou.

Rob Smith gave few good points too.

Boris

[Bordy]

I am not sure if I would say Jasey Jay is coming close Blue if that’s who you are referring to by JJ. But he is working on product to suit his riding style and catch up to the Swiss.

I am not sure if any of you are up to speed with the board builder RD push that is going on right now but Bruce (coiler) and Sean (donek) are both using Titanal to change the characteristics of there race stock boards. I have ridden both of there test gear and were pleased by both manufactures early product and the fact that they had both solved the inherent adhesive problem that plagued titanal assembly, now they are each refining their board characteristics into product that they feel represents their Ideas for success.

Jasey Jays’ newest board (the one he was riding in GS at nationals and he and I talked in length about, although I had spend days with Burce riding and discussing titanal and was already up to speed on coilers out look) has a exposed Titanal top sheet much like the Kesslers that he is trying to base many of his characteristics off of. I ride a Kessler and spend a lot of time letting other people try it, and discussing it with athletes and coaches some of who, like Jasey are giving or want to give titanal a try.

Although Board materials are changing most race technology is not going to benefit free riders due to the some what unfriendly flex characteristics of a board soft enough to eat up the true conditions of a course are not very user friendly. Most if not all fee riders who have ridden my Kessler felt is was sub par with there current set up regardless of what it was? While almost all racers use phrases like “best board I have ever ridden and WOW”.

As some riders have mentioned shape changes are perhaps necessary based on their comparisons of current ski shapes and the need for snowboards to follow suit are comparing apples to oranges. I currently see GS shapes staying in the low to mid 180 ranges and perhaps even growing (Tyler Jewel won USSA nationals on a 188 Tomahawk build for a different rider who weighs 40-50 pounds more then Jewel himself).

Board length and shape will still be clearly defined by sanctioning course parameters necessary to provide fair competition at any and all locations by any official running any event sanctioned by the body, FIS, USSA, USASA. These course parameters dictate each riders board selection as they change and progress with the sport, we are currently in a pattern of GS courses becoming tighter and SL courses becoming loser many riders have in turn decreased the radius of there GS boards while increasing the length and radius of there SL board to follow suit. Lisa Kosglow needs a much different product then my self to handle the same race course so obviously the rider is almost the largest factor in board shape and flex but Radius are surprisingly close for every one, between 13m for very light riders and 15m for almost every one else in GS and around 8.5 to 9.5 in SL for the heaveys and as small as 7.5 for the lighter riders.

The necessity of dampening has become more important then ever because of the Duel format and the need to provide grip on a ever-changing variable surface has begun a great push by most manufactures to dampen everything from boots to bindings to try and give the athlete a smoother ride with less chatter.

The progression is developing but is being hindered by many hard core free riders who still believe the ideas behind great working free ride gear should be adapted by the rider to work in a race course, that Idea is slowly being beat into submission and dampening is becoming the priority on the R and D list for most major manufactures in order to appease all riders.

Also the free riding world has opened its eyes to the joy of shape, and many custom board builders have expanded there templates to include rider specific lengths and widths, while at one point many board builders held a unspoken code of function over inexperienced rider recommendation some builders have pressed boards way out side of there “comfort zone” to appease the “demanding and usually uneducated” consumer, while just a few short years ago they would have recommended you try some one else. Many consumers learn a firm lesson with some unpractical shapes, but once you design and ride a substandard product at least you know what you don’t want.

Length:

I have to touch on length real quickly here also. Many free riders have mentioned length as a hindrance and that boards should follow short ski patterens. I am not sure what type of background these riders have and if it involves “hypothetical ideas” about length or if the riders have ridden a large variety of board lengths from little to really, really, really big ? But in my humble snowboarding experience I have never free ridden a board that was to big but only a board I need more practice on or was limited by the terrain.

Having 2 skis, even SL skis in a 155 length with lets say a 130 effective edge gives the operator 260 cm of edge to stand on with both feet in a turn with centered balance and weighting assuming the skier is using both skis properly and for the sake of argument not over analyzing technique, but as a rider you have one half the edge due to the fact your strapped on one ski with out a extra edge for back up. Most riders I know love to have as much edge a possible to stand on and at the speeds we travel and try to maintain control at, I’ll take all the edge I can get thank you very much!

Also as far as this skier racing snowboarder gig. you guys need to meet some faster snowboarders. 10 seconds on GS vs a guy on SL skis what are you guys running a 3 minute GS course?

Perhaps you just have a huge offset in ability between your athletes maybe you should teach the skier how to ride sounds like they are just faster then your rider?

I am still faster on skiis then I am on a snowboard but only by 1 second per 40 seconds of course in GS and even less in SL if there are good pull starts and skating is not a big advantage.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by nekdut

Now that's something I never really understood. Why the heck do the ski racing organizations have specific rules on ski dimensions for their races?

Because at some point, they cease to be "skis" and become "snowblades". I guess.

Its not like someone is going to enter SuperG with some 4m scr skiblades and win or anything.

They might in slalom. I think the FIS rule was adopted after some dude showed up to a slalom race on 148s or something.

I can accept that, but the radius rule really mystifies me. The radius should be up to the racer, and any radius should be fair game. It's not like sidecut is some sort of cheater gimmick.

[Rob Smith]

The world cup ski world is big bucks & pride.

The radius controls are set to try and even the field.

Ski manufacturers can & do favour certain athletes.

The course setter is somebodies coach (or nationality) and may possibly set with some bias...

The course is also on some athletes home turf.

So much for ski racing.

Why I like snowboard racers.

NorAm at Craigleith. Minus 20 f. Blowing a gale. Quarter finals, red course to blue course - Why don't we wear our pants. (the zip offs over the speed suit) and so they did.

[Bordy]

I tried that line in the finals at Craigleith with the cat I raced no such luck! I still have the frost bite on my toes from that event.... Anton Pouge refused to let the cold get to him and went GS suit all weekend. It payed off since he sweep the event!

We always try to go Gor-tex Berfore Span-dex if the weather is crappy... only works when both riders are up for it. At USASA natinoals I raced Anton in the Semis and had to go to GS suit just to even things out. It was the fast Run I had all day, not sure if it was because I had to race Anton or just cuz the suit is so damn slippery....The on going Joke is we need a Speed suit ban just so we look cooler.

There are some great advantages to having the suit on when you make a mistake and are sliding on a body part covered in slippery fabric though. Some of the best Euro Carving happens in a speed suit you slide you slide you slide no drag.....