Boot Questions Forward Range of Motion

[BXFR70]

I have Deeluxe track 700s, the newest model. I tried BTS but it was not stiff enough and allowed for too far a range of motion forward. I tried Blue and then Red springs. Using the 5 position forward lean mechanism, I ride with them on 3, I would like a little further range of motion for them, but going to 1, ie using powder mode, is too far forward. I have a shorter range of motion in my foot/ankle. If I am standing flat on ground, and bend my knee forward, like towards the front of my foot, my heel would start to lift sooner than others. At 1 on the 5 position forward lean mechanism, which is most forward lean, I get the sensation of heel lift, and if I tighten the boot enough to counter that, I will have bad foot pain.

I am not sure if other boots would be better, but I tried on RC-10’s and they were way too low volume for me, not even close… I have not looked into the Head Stratos Pro’s at all, as they are no longer made, I just wanted to stick with something that will be around for a bit it seems.

I have worked with a bootfitter, and where I am is fine right now, boots feel great, just wondering if anything would allow for a more bottomless feel, more like a freestyle ski boot. I tried on some ski boots last year, and they were probably stiffer than the track 700s by a little, but they felt like if I was stronger or heavier, I could have bent them further forward. The bootfitter is 2 hrs away, so it is kind of tough to go back and forth to work on certain things through the season like this.

Anyone have anything very specific they can tell me to do for the track 700’s right now?

I sold the BTS kit I had, I was thinking about urethane with varying durometer ratings to limit travel, on a BTS or similar hardware, I am not sure if they would just be too stiff though? And if softer or more compressible, I am not sure if I would need something to help the boot back to original forward lean position.

Basically due to my ranges of motion, I need a fairly short range of motion, but a little longer than I have now, with less of a stopping point. I can maybe try to ride the back boot at lean position 2, and see if that will work for what I need or want to do, it’s the back leg that has been giving me more trouble.

Thanks in advance.

[kieran]

you could try stacking springs of different tensions. this could give you a shorter range of motion compared to one spring of constant rate, without necessarily making it so stiff that you lose all movement entirely.

[Hans]

Pitty you have sold your bts kit, just turn the topscrew down and you will stay more upright and you will meet less forward flex or you will have to use more strength and or weight. I use this combo with a booster strap, enough for gaining some dynamic forward flex on my jja boards. And close the two up buckles more. I undo them when i am in the chairlift.

[BXFR70]

I had done pretty much just that. Even with the springs really compressed the forward range was still too much. I had the bottom screw all the way down and the top really tightened. Range of motion was still too great though. That's why I was wondering about urethane or something I did not think about stiffer springs or where to source.

[Ian M]

What about using the stock forward lean adjuster in 'freeride mode'? That allows the shell to flex between 3 and 1. Another option, if your ankle feels too bent at lower FLA settings, add more heel lift. I just went to a six degree cant disc on my rear TD3, and it put my rear knee where I desired with less ankle flex/forward lean.

[BXFR70]

What about using the stock forward lean adjuster in 'freeride mode'? That allows the shell to flex between 3 and 1. Another option, if your ankle feels too bent at lower FLA settings, add more heel lift. I just went to a six degree cant disc on my rear TD3, and it put my rear knee where I desired with less ankle flex/forward lean.

in freeride mode, the range at number 1 is still too far. I called it powder mode in my original post. I am using a 3 degree cant disk in the back, and it is pretty much all heel lift, so the 6 may help me some more.

I have the BP versions, how much higher at the high end is a 6 degree vs 3 degree? I know its double the degrees, but does that mean its double the height? if so, that would definitely help a lot I think.

[Ian M]

^ Sorry, I missed that you described that as 'power mode'. Yes, a 6 degree disc gives you double the heel lift that a 3 degree does, so your rear knee can get lower with less ankle bend/forward lean. That will mean less heel lift in your boot for the same stance also.

Shorter, stiffer springs for the BTS would be a good way to go in addition to that, but you sold 'em!

[BXFR70]

^ Sorry, I missed that you described that as 'power mode'. Yes, a 6 degree disc gives you double the heel lift that a 3 degree does, so your rear knee can get lower with less ankle bend/forward lean. That will mean less heel lift in your boot for the same stance also.

Shorter, stiffer springs for the BTS would be a good way to go in addition to that, but you sold 'em!

yes I sold them, did not really think about the springs, I wondered if I could get that much heavier than the red anyway. the red are a bit thicker than blue, and there is not near as much space for preload in the spring until it is almost binding, I think maybe a shorter spring would work but would have to be way way stronger. the red were still too soft for how I want it to feel, I almost ran out of threads on the top screw.

I think for now, the Cant may work the best.

[BXFR70]

You are a candidate for the full tilt ski boot

http://www.epicski.com/products/full-tilt-bumble-bee-pro-ski-boot-mens

Flexon tongue, not a lot of forward flex

Just want to add, with the F2 binding you can stack the risers, they come with one which makes them 3-4 degrees, add another, or two, if the 6 degree bomber isn't enough.

Sticking with your shells, a foamed in liner with a stiff tongue (surefoot) will limit your forward lean, combined with cranked red springs (bts) might give you the resistance you require.

I agree about the BTS, had 'em, every turn was a "new" experience, never knew when the forward lean would tighten up, moved to UPZ with grey tongues, not much lean, lots of stiffness.

I will have to look at the Full Tilts at some point, I do have step-ins so I would have to convert the bindings over, with the 5 position forward lean, I find the boots now, OK in stiffness, just would rather a more bottomless feeling for the end range of motion.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Timeless61

[BXFR70]

how much stiffer will race tongues make the deeluxe track 700s? I wonder if with the race tongues, I will not get to the harsher bottom out point in the forward range of motion.

[KingCrimson]

I'd be curious to see the rest of your setup and footage of you riding. I can understand if the boots are too soft, but range of motion is a good thing, you almost never hear about range of motion negatively. And if your heel is lifting, itll lift regardless of the cuffs range. I think you might be leaning on the cuffs and not pressuring the board correctly. That can basically lever your foot out of the boot, which creates false forward lean if your heel lifts- and cause pain from the buckles. If its not technique, it could just be your boot is too big.

Edited February 12, 2013 by KingCrimson

[BXFR70]

I'd be curious to see the rest of your setup and footage of you riding. I can understand if the boots are too soft, but range of motion is a good thing, you almost never hear about range of motion negatively. And if your heel is lifting, itll lift regardless of the cuffs range. I think you might be leaning on the cuffs and not pressuring the board correctly. That can basically lever your foot out of the boot, which creates false forward lean if your heel lifts- and cause pain from the buckles. If its not technique, it could just be your boot is too big.

I agree that range of motion is usually not a negative thing, but for me and being pain free while riding it is.

I have a limited range of motion for dorsiflexion basically. when you have a limited range of motion like this, the further forward you bend your knee, the heel will lift to compensate for that. and due to my wedge shaped calves, they force their way out of the boot and create heel lift no matter how tight, if I lean too far forward. like the lever you described above.

i also have some heel lifts under the liner in the shell, these have helped a bit. when I was using the BTS, my bootfitter wanted me to stiffen up the boot some to cut down on the range, so basically I was unable to use the BTS, now, I am where I am just looking to fine tune further, wondering if anyone else has any experience with a situation similar to mine.

my boots fit pretty well, and all the way to the top, they are tight on me. if I push forward, I do not take up any space before pushing and flexing the boot. for me, heel lift is from a limited range of motion in my ankle, so the heel lift is directly related to how far forward my knee is or lower leg is bent.

also, as far as leaning on the cuff, I do not think I am, but I could be wrong, but I do know what that feels like from skiing, I wore some too big rental boots at times fooling around and to ski, I was definitely just leaning on the cuffs, not pressuring the wholeboot.

these boots are not too big, we had to punch them out in multiple areas, and a few other things to get me some more room.

[KingCrimson]

I see a lot of thought and energy being put into this that would be spent way more effectively on technique. I would get rid of those heel wedges under your liner and grind the boot board instead if you really want heel lift inside the boot. Af shells are already atrociously heel-high out of the box. When you add height you mess up the heel pocket in the boot and are more prone to lift..that pocket has to work with the weird surfaces on your heel, and because of its shape, if youre not low enough it just won't grab a hold of your foot.

Why do you say you have limited ankle mobility? Were you injured? Which foot?

I honestly think it just sounds like youre not pressuring with your heels and toes and youre expecting the boots to do the work. If the boots are flexing too much, then give the board inputs some other way. Take my word on that one. You just have to understand that when I see someone who has been riding plates for one year its a very safe assumption that the gear is not at fault as much as the technique. This is especially true here where I know that having a boot with more travel than your ankle only causes heel lift when you try to exceed your bodys limitations. That is by definition a technique error

Edited February 12, 2013 by KingCrimson

[BXFR70]

I see a lot of thought and energy being put into this that would be spent way more effectively on technique. I would get rid of those heel wedges under your liner and grind the boot board instead if you really want heel lift inside the boot. Af shells are already atrociously heel-high out of the box. When you add height you mess up the heel pocket in the boot and are more prone to lift..that pocket has to work with the weird surfaces on your heel, and because of its shape, if youre not low enough it just won't grab a hold of your foot.

Why do you say you have limited ankle mobility? Were you injured? Which foot?

I honestly think it just sounds like youre not pressuring with your heels and toes and youre expecting the boots to do the work. If the boots are flexing too much, then give the board inputs some other way. Take my word on that one. You just have to understand that when I see someone who has been riding plates for one year its a very safe assumption that the gear is not at fault as much as the technique. This is especially true here where I know that having a boot with more travel than your ankle only causes heel lift when you try to exceed your bodys limitations. That is by definition a technique error

from what I said above, my boots using the 5 position lean adjustor are okay stiffness wise, and range of motion wise, they are fine. I was just wondering if there was a way for me to make them more progressive and not as linear to a bottom point. also, not using the heel lifts, I had much worse heel lift. I am pretty satisfied with the fit and feel of the boots in every regard except the main question I asked with the thread. For the first time in 12-14 years, I do not have foot pain while riding.

the 2nd point, a podiatrist and my bootfitter who is a C Ped told me. no injuries, both feet have about the same, just how I am, I just have a limited range of motion.

your third point can also be answered by my first, it may be technique, which I will continue to improve obviously, but I am just asking to see if anyone had done anything to make the boots feel how I want them to.

talking about the BTS and limited range of motion was kind of to show how I arrived where I am now. right now, not using BTS, the boots are fine range of motion wise, so that is a non-issue.

[Beckmann AG]

A physically fit and experienced hockey player complained of having lower back pain at the start of every new season.

Known to have limited dorsi-flexion of both 'ankles'.

Built accurate foot support.

Tuned heel height under the footbed, inside the skates in an iterative, experiential manner.

When it felt 'right', and was verified, that amount of temporary shim height was added to the underside of the heel of the footbeds.

Lower back pain was thus resolved.

A small percentage of athletes have limited range at the ankle. This can be accommodated to some extent, so long as the athlete understands and works within the limitations. Disregard the lack of range, and you may smack the tibia distal against the talus proximal, and begin to develop spurs at the POC.

Accurate foot support may add a degree or two of range.

The typical 'solution' is to add a small lift under the heel. Add more than necessary, and you will be bearing too much weight on the forefoot, and also create difficulties in weighting the aft end of the board while on the heelside edge.

Tune the lift while riding easy, as though you had no boot shells to push against. In other words, ride off the soles of your feet.

The boot shell is a lever of maintenance, rather than a lever of actuation.

Bear in mind that you may need to tune your stance width. Wide stances and limited ROM may not go well together.

When you get this figured out, then work on the forward flex such that the boot stops flexing before you do.

Understand that your limited range may preclude much of what passes for accepted technique.

If your heel lifts in the boot, and you try to nail it down with additional material in the heel pocket, you may suffer consequential tissue damage.

A mechanism similar to the BTS will provide the tunability you need. However, you will probably need to source a range of springs, of differing length/diameter/K, as well as spacers or spring washers to get what you want.

Any industrial supply house will have what you need. Mcmaster, MSC, Travers tool, etc.

Elastomers will go dead in the cold, so that might be a waste of time.

You may also want to relocate the ankle rivets of your boots to match the hinge location of your 'ankle', once you have determined the appropriate underfoot fix. (Internal/external heel height, cant, etc.)

As previously mentioned, a better liner might be a good idea.

Or a better shell..

Technique is quite often a byproduct of interface. There is no point in trying to work on your track driving skills when the pedals are too far away from you feet.

Unless you want to groove in a bunch of work-arounds.

[Boots]

I was having this same issue with my new boots. I'm on yellow springs and they are completely cranked, and they didn’t need to be in my old boots. I was getting no resistance from the boot and I had to push allot with my ankle to keep from bottoming out in flex. It was excessive and if I hit something I wasn’t strong enough to stop from over flexing my ankle. I had a pair of Booster Straps so I installed them. Problem magically solved. I also have chicken legs and my top straps are as tight as they go with eliminator pads installed. I think the play in the top of the leg/boot interface provided additional unproductive forward lean that was too much after the boot flex kicked in. I also think I ended up with boot deformation in the top due to all the excess space and ability of the plastic to deform without actually engaging the BTS until way late in the whole flex cycle. I think the boosters straps direct connection to my upper leg and back cuff put the BTS to work without the play in the top of the boot becoming a factor ( that’s my theory and I’m sticking to it).

Anyway, the booster straps are about $30 and might be worth a shot.</SPAN>

I can't speak to the heal lift installed in your boot as it seems to help with your limited flex but they always made the problem worse for me. If you start having heal lift issues again you might try the ankle wraps (</SPAN>http://www.tognar.com/boot-fitting-pads-custom-shapes-sheets-1-8-foam/</SPAN>). These were key for keeping my heals down. The molded liners alone don’t provide enough bite on my ankles to keep my heals firmly planted in the boot.

Boots</SPAN>