tjones Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 hi everyone... I found this board (and a pile of videos) a couple years back of some really fun looking carving... and I've been watching the threads and trying to do some research to figure out if it's for me ever since. I'm posting this in the so cal section as i'm local to here and some questions really are region specific... sorry for the wall of text but you guys seem like a friendly bunch, so I figured I'd just ask. :) I mainly ride at snow summit so region questions are more for that resort... I'm really curious about the conditions and determining factors that say "ok its hard boots/alpine board day" instead of eh take it easy and ride other stuff... do you guys only ride in the mornings due to weather/snow being garbage later in the day? Is it possible to just ride any time of day on these boards/boot setups? since I'm presently a 1 board fits all kind of rider I'm much more interested in something that fits a bit more of "eh it doesn't matter what's going on, i can take this one up the mountain" kind of board. my understanding is that although the swoard boards are really great at EC, and it's a style of riding that I'd eventually like to head towards, you need especially good conditions to use them? is that an accurate assumption? I think as far as boards this also puts me more at something like a prior ATV more than a swoard type EC board as I might find myself doing any old thing at all while on the mountain. Do you guys agree or am I missing something? how different is the hard boot setups to a soft boot all mountain setup? is it really night and day? I know I prefer carving my way down mountains a bit more casually as opposed to bombing down the hills at super high speed or full on park riding... so I *think* i'm looking at the right route... I can carve (not slide) my turns already to a certain extent (before my board gives out on me and can't hold on to the hill) however, dropping the money on the new equipment is a big choice for me though... having boarded in tahoe, i'm well aware that so cal conditions are typically on the um... crappier side of things.... does this destroy the overall enjoyment of hard boot style riding or is it proportionally the same kind of drop the way "oh good snow/bad snow" is to a soft boot rider, which is to say you just tend to slide a little more (unless you're standing on a sheet of ice.. which always sucks hehee...)? (my current opinion of snow summit's general conditions vs. say tahoe is one of "eh it's a lil worse for sure, but not bad enough to ruin the day) how roughly can you treat these boards? I'm not saying I want to ride them down a pile of rocks or anything... I'd probably cry a lil after spending that much on a board and wrecking it like that... more like if i wander over to the park side, can I take a small jump or two then go back to carving? (I don't really care about the grinding... as i'm really much more interested in just cruising down the mountain in long fluid turns... which my understanding puts me on an alpine board for the best time... but the occasional jump is fun.) I think that's all the question I can think to ask the so cal guys right now... happy riding and hopefully I'll get to meet you guys on the mountain sometime :) (my general riding days are not very regular but my pass is a mon-fri pass.. us theatre people tend to have our "weekends" during the week, usually monday/tuesday hehe..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loc Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Welcome! Glad to have you here. When I first got into the alpine scene I learned on a Prior ATV. It's a fantastic all-mountain board but as I got better over the years I yearned for a more fine tuned carving experience. That's when I bought a straight up alpine board and a pow board. The ATV is great for what it is - a jack of all trades and master of none. I sort of regret selling it but having a pow board to ride soft boots in has been really enjoyable. You can do EC turns on any carving board but some make it easier. how different is the hard boot setups to a soft boot all mountain setup? IMO it's a gigantic difference. I can carve harder and with less effort in HBs. When free riding in old and tracked out pow SBs are way easier. That's just me though. Find out what the right tool is for you. You should hang out with one of the SoCal guys at Snow Summit. They'll be glad to help you out. We love showing new brothers (and sisters) the light :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Welcome tjones! I cant answer to Summit as I am one of the few that goes to Mt High. Loc was right about hooking up with the Summit guys though. Be there for first chair on any given sunday and look for the nice bunch of guys in hardboots carrying strange looking boards and introduce yourself. Someone should have something for you to use/try especially if you post up here "PRIOR" to going up. Hope to see you on the hill some time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarve Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 From what you mention in your first post, you are ready to step up and into the world of Hardboot Carving. And, as you specifically want a board you can ride anytime, anywhere, I'll suggest you consider something along the lines of a Donek Metal Ax (made in Colorado). It's an all mountain carving board, that does everything well. The metal will provide a smooth, dampened ride with lots of grip in hard pack conditions. Give Sean Martin @ Donek a call, and he will custom make one for you that will be amazing. He will want to speak with you in person, to obtain the data he will need to give you his expert opinion of what will work best for you, taking into account your height and weight. This will require a "leap of faith" on your part, but I can tell you from my personal experience ordering a custom board from Donek, you will be amazed at what you've been missing. Of course you can demo some boards from us first, to see what the all-mountain, and carving boards are like, and if you want to save some money you can find used boards,bindings, and boots here in the for sale section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terryw Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I can answer for Summit! I patrol there, so I see it in all conditions. Once the season is actually started, it is a great place to ride. We do typically ride more in the mornings as the grooming is good and conditions are more friendly for us. Snow is usually hard pack that will hold a good edge, followed by a softening that becomes very fun to ride for a few hours. By the afternoon, things will typically get too soft to hold a firm edge, and our legs are usually toast anyway. So most of us will leave the hill by 1:00, or so. As the season progresses, and we move towards spring, the morning conditions will become more likely to be very hard in the mornings, followed by a much smaller window of very carveable snow for a few hours. Still fun, just more challenging. Really, if you are carving the hill hard, you won't last much past noon anyway. Your legs will simply give out. There are also far fewer people there at opening, thus decreasing the potential for collisions with other skiers/boarders. Not sure how much jumping I would do in hard boots in the park. Our interface is stiffer, and not as forgiving as a soft setup. I am sure you could do it, you wold just have to be a more technical rider. Be sure you can do 360 degree spins both directions at a moments notice, so you can spin out of a bad landing, rather than just going down. We are a very friendly crowd at Summit. Anyone in hard boots will be happy to help you make the transition when you are ready. There is generally equipment available if you ask for it early. Boots are the most difficult to find, but put up your boot size ant we will see what can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I am one of the regular Summit riders and I do have some equipment that I can loan out if you want. The only problem is my shortest board length is 175cm. I have some boots which are 27.5 (size 10 approx) to use. Let us know or keep tuned in to this thread when you plan on coming up to Summit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 hehe you guys seem like a great bunch, totally look forward to meeting up with everyone some time... as far as loaner gear, it's really nice of you guys to offer, I'm typically between 173 and 180 lbs (different days..) 5'8, and wear a size 7.5 to 8 shoe (I'll get the sizing of my actual foot at some point so I can be accurate about mondo sizing... but for now, 7.5 depending on brand is either right at the tip of my toes or scrunched a bit, 8 is typically some room to move and i swim in anything higher.) as far as when I actually head up to the mountain, I'm typically a mon-fri availability.. but I'll see if I can head up a sunday (after all, it's you guys doing me the favor not the other way around hehehe...) I'll definitely post here when I'm headed up tho! :) I'll poke yer brains while wearing softies if I don't have the right gear yet... more info is always handy to have (and to learn about the style more.. since all i have really seen is a dude in hard boots fly past me periodically.. hahaha..) I guess the last question is ... when you guys go, are u guys more of the "hang on the black diamonds" types or more intermediate runs? I can deal with black diamonds if I have to, but I typically have to be a little careful about it... and double black is out of my league (lol) past a certain incline it still looks and feels like i'm jumping off a cliff without a parachute. and I'm definitely more comfy on intermediate to high intermediate runs (lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarve Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I guess the last question is ... when you guys go, are u guys more of the "hang on the black diamonds" types or more intermediate runs? I can deal with black diamonds if I have to, but I typically have to be a little careful about it... and double black is out of my league (lol) past a certain incline it still looks and feels like i'm jumping off a cliff without a parachute. and I'm definitely more comfy on intermediate to high intermediate runs (lol) Speaking personally, I prefer a wide intermediate run to lay down some trenches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 While carving the steeper runs maybe fun for eurocarving and dragging hips I would say that most carvers prefer intermediate runs to carve on. The pitch is good to keep up a head of steam but not too steep to accelerate like a bullet if you stay in the fall line too long. I can usually get away for a midweek day trip. Just need a two day notice to arrange things Looking forward to converting another to the carving corps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loc Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 hehe you guys seem like a great bunch, totally look forward to meeting up with everyone some time... as far as loaner gear, it's really nice of you guys to offer, I'm typically between 173 and 180 lbs (different days..) 5'8, and wear a size 7.5 to 8 shoe (I'll get the sizing of my actual foot at some point so I can be accurate about mondo sizing... but for now, 7.5 depending on brand is either right at the tip of my toes or scrunched a bit, 8 is typically some room to move and i swim in anything higher.)I guess the last question is ... when you guys go, are u guys more of the "hang on the black diamonds" types or more intermediate runs? I can deal with black diamonds if I have to, but I typically have to be a little careful about it... and double black is out of my league (lol) past a certain incline it still looks and feels like i'm jumping off a cliff without a parachute. and I'm definitely more comfy on intermediate to high intermediate runs (lol) I believe I have some old mondo 24s so let us know after you've measured. I prefer to carve on intermediates too and when I follow my friends to the blacks I do a lot of skarving. The only time I enjoy steeps are pow days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 hehe apparently my feet aren't quite that small. i'm between mondo 25 and 26. i just checked my soft boots and they're actually a 27... they have a lil room in the toes but as i recall my feet were too wide for something tighter fitting from the store that i got em from length wise... I've always had an issue with my feet being too wide for the usual manufactured "normals" lol... i tried on some mondo 26 ski boots from salomon i think, for fitment check and they were crushing my feet side to side but perfect length... so... any companies make boots for ppl with wide feet? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I have some Burton freecarve/ 3 buckles. I would be in a 8.5wide street shoe. They fit great, just too soft/flexi for me and I have a new(to me)pair of 700t deeluxe I will be using. Yours if they fit for peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I'll post up next time i have some advanced warning on when i'm gonna hit the slopes. we just made plans to go up this monday morning. *chuckles* ... ;) so unless you're near san diego...? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 One step closer... heh... my boots are on their way.. ordered bindings and the demo swoard off bomber's site (as I was really interested in that style of riding, looks more comfortable to me with the rotation and foot stances...)... unfortunately they apparently ran out right as i ordered. *laughs* ah well.. such is life. it does seem the other good options stand at a donek axxess or prior ATV. I chatted with sean over at done and he recommended either the axxess, incline or razor, and said maybe theFC if I wanted a more free carve board... the rest of you guys have any input regarding ride style vs. board style? I know at present I prefer much um.. lower? higher? lol stance angles... (which is to say on soft boots, i'm a duck footed rider +15/-15... and while i'm aware the stance angles will definitely be different... i think i still might prefer something a bit more "sideways" than forwards if that makes sense. stems from surfing I guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Lower angles. But i would suggest before you ever get the boots or binders you eliminate the duck stance and try something more like 24/12 or more if your freestyle board/bindings will handle those angles. Get the feeling before jumping on the carving board as you WILL be discouraged and wonder if your investment was worth the while...also an alpine board will serve you your arse for breakfast if you are not prepared. I too spend alot of time on the dark side(soft boots) but duck stance is akin to 'tard stance. Watch Terje and check his stance...24/12... My 2 centavos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 heh... well my posted question was more with regard to what appeared to be the 2 major stances/riding techniques within the hard booting world between what I guess I'll call the bombers and the ECers... I am well aware that my present soft boot stance absolutely will not work on hard boots. and I sincerely hope you didn't believe I was expecting to ride that way. At the end of the day, there really isn't a lot of use calling someone's preferred comfortable riding stance retarded. If it's really your opinion, I understand, but keep it to yourself. However, I do appreciate the critique and warning that I should be very aware that i'm liable to fall on my face while adjusting to the new stance angles. I was given that warning when I first learned snowboarding... it didn't deter me then either. I've actually experimented with my binding position and angles over the years I've been riding, and with my current gear, it just happens that 15/15 is comfy. my boots are mushy, and the board and bindings were both bought used years ago. I wasn't asking your opinion of my soft boot riding style, merely your expertise and opinions regarding the hard boot setups I have yet to experience. but thanks! so, any opinions regarding the 2 hard booted stances and riding style vs. board type and which affects what if at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Point was that there is no way to carve at turn with a 15/-15 stance. It may be comfy but it will always lead to skidding. That s all I meant. Dont take it so hard...I also meant that you need ride your standard board in an "uncomfy" stance. Race is about 65/55, ec on wider boards at flatter angles...55/50. Not much difference. Big difference from your "comfy" stance to mine though... as noted, 2 cents. Of course angles will vary from race/rec to ec, but they are both angled, highly angled... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Point was that there is no way to carve at turn with a 15/-15 stance. It may be comfy but it will always lead to skidding. That s all I meant. Dont take it so hard...I also meant that you need ride your standard board in an "uncomfy" stance. Race is about 65/55, ec on wider boards at flatter angles...55/50. Not much difference. Big difference from your "comfy" stance to mine though... as noted, 2 cents. Of course angles will vary from race/rec to ec, but they are both angled, highly angled... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 woo long post.. sorry :) So, just to reiterate... the different boards just dictate what your limits are to binding angles due to boot out issues, but the "riding style" is really more preference than anything necessarily determined by the type of board you're on and how your bindings are set? yeah, part of the unique complication is if i go for 24/12 or more on my current board (and I have before), my current board is narrow enough that even with my not overly large feet, it will actually have a fair amount of boot out.. making it even harder to hold a carve. ...nothing quite like feeling the snow slam against your boots knowing something's wrong. but at my usual 15/15 stance, I don't suffer nearly as much boot out likely due to being able to widen my stance a little further (so as to reach to a slightly wider part of the board) and can get higher on edge without sliding out. On good snow, I can get maybe 45 to 50 degrees up on the board with very little slide if I'm pushing really hard with a bit of luck and having a good day hehehhe... it's definitely on the edge of wanting to eat me alive like that *chuckles* and if it's harder snow, or ice.. yeah.. no way... maybe 25 or 35... lol. Granted that's not much compared to what you guys are capable of, but it's not exactly skidding down the mountain either I feel? ;) I definitely suffer from the "I'm sorry you said I can't do that?? ok, i'll be right back. I'll call your when it's done." kind of personality... gets me into a lil trouble here and there, but, life's an adventure, and I don't mind a few bruises along the way hehehe... It's interesting, I've tried to do the research on the board I presently own and frankly I can't say I've found a heck of a lot on it... I'm aware the board may be a lil short for me... but it's what i have, so it's what i ride... hence looking into more gear ;) What I do know is the Idiom series from burton originated in japan... and there, it was a narrower board than the idiom series in the states for at least a couple years. I've since found a couple people with the american burton idioms, as well as a few of the store guys and they weren't familiar with either my top sheet graphic or how narrow the board is... which could just mean someone ordered a custom top sheet... The board is stamped "second" due to a small flaw in the top sheet graphic, so it's also a bit less likely to be a one off custom board with a unique graphic... then again... (lol) Also the general comment on it was that it felt much more like a Burton Custom X's flex and shape apparently and not an Idiom (though again it seemed too narrow to everyone who's seen it), which both the narrowness and it's shape and flex seemed really strange to them... I don't really have an eye to spot such things and have never ridden the Custom X... prior to this board, all I've ridden is various rent-a-boards. :) the guy I bought it from was asian, but he says he bought it used off another asian guy and didn't really care either, and I didn't care cuz at the time the board was cheap and in reasonable condition and around the right height for me to enjoy for a few years while i decided if snowboarding was something I wanted to do for the rest of my life hehehe, so it's possible (though I say long shot) that the board is actually one of the japanese idioms, and not an american one. If nothing else, it makes for a fun story... ;) And I do love the top sheet graphic lol... it's a simple silver/aluminum metallic main coat with patches of a painted carbon fiber looking section which look like they're protruding from where the silver was "sliced away" inlaid on the rear and between the feet with a black dots arranged somewhat in a triangle along the front... the bottom is almost totally white tho which makes it really annoying to decide how the wax is holding up and man do you ever see every stupid scratch and dirt mark and stain. *lol* Now that I wax my own board... I just wax it before I go so I don't care about that anymore. *lol* The board's been good enough to let me have fun on it... now I'm just looking for a new brand of fun to add to the pile! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 i always say run what ya brung... im at mt high every weekend. i bring a few boards...try one. I have several and if you fit size 8-9 boots I have a back up pair. See you up there!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 hehe for now I have a season pass to snow summit, not mt. high... and since I don't go *that* often, i tend to head up to summit so i get good use out of my pass... (that and the g/f gets the other half of the vote hehehe...) but hopefully we'll run into each other at some point! And I'll poke your brain for more knowledge (and likely learn from your riding) ;) have a good day :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Have you read these two articles on the Bomber Home Page? Lots of good info in them to get you started carving on your softies. http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/feel_the_carve.cfm http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/the_normII.cfm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjones Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 yep and perused the tech articles :) it's all reasonably familiar :) and I can leave lines in the snow. :) linking carved turns is something i can do... just not flying down the slopes really fast, carving 50 degrees on edge.. that i can only handle 1 or 2 at a time before i gotta slow down lol :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarve Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 yep and perused the tech articles :) it's all reasonably familiar :) and I can leave lines in the snow. :) linking carved turns is something i can do... just not flying down the slopes really fast, carving 50 degrees on edge.. that i can only handle 1 or 2 at a time before i gotta slow down lol :) It sounds like you are already able to carve essentially, just not with the optimal equipment necessary to really rip linked carved turns. You will probably be surprised how easy it will be, with the latest modern boards/boots/bindings. At this point you just need to put board to snow, once you have all your equipment, and start carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 ... just not flying down the slopes really fast, carving 50 degrees on edge.. that i can only handle 1 or 2 at a time before i gotta slow down lol :) Not sure where this misconception comes from with people. Perhaps they think we fly down the slope because we use "race boards" It's not about "flying down the slopes really fast carvng 50 degrees on edge". It is more of a rhythm of connecting turns and keeping your speed in check. As discussed in this thread earlier, the best carving runs are the intermediate runs. On these runs, you can keep your speed down and rail some hard carves, feeling the g forces building in the turns, feeling the board flexing and then popping you into the next turn. I can say, along with others here is that we tend to not want the speed, racers do, freecarvers don't. If I wanted to I could bomb it straight down a run and make a few long radius turns and be to the bottom of chair 7 at Snow Summit in a minute or two. Where is the fun in that ? I like to count how many carved turns I can get on one particular pitch. Depending on the board I am on, a 10 meter sidecut or a 16 meter sidecut I can usually crank out between 8-10 turns per pitch on Chair 7. If you are having problems with the build up of speed than you are not completing a carved turn. Watch some more videos, our purpose on a carving board is to get in and out of the fall line as quickly as possible. If you stay parallel to the fall line your speed builds. I for one actually carve uphill to scrub speed, in order to do this my board has to pass completely through the fall line, completing a near circle on some occasions. Again, it is not about speed. Anyone can point their board or skis down a hill and go fast. Carvers are counting turns per run, not runs per day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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