A little help with the heelside please.

[ohiomoto]

Hello,

I am the new guy here. Great place. I've already picked up a few ideas that have worked well for me.

Okay, I am trying to dial in my riding. I've been ridding hard boots just a few days each season since 1995. I never got too serious about it mainly because I was always more focused on my skiing.

Like many of you here, I have a problem with carving:

"Hello, my name is Tim and I am a Carvoholic. My last carve was this afternoon and it was incredible. I want to carve anything that I put on my feet. I just love to carve!"

Anyway, I actually ride pretty well. At least that's what I'm told, but I've never even seen a picture of me on a board, so I can't say for sure. I will say that I do feel pretty strong and competent though not always completely confident.

So here is how I ride:

I'm tall, but I try to "ride compact". I try to ride over the edge and keep my hands off the snow. I stay square to the nose and I rotate my hips into the turn. I'm not trying to lay it out EC style (maybe later.)

A. My toe side turns come pretty easy for me. I have no problem keeping a quiet upper body and creating the angles I need with my lower body.

B. Most of my healside turns feel good with some being great and others not so great. I'm getting better and I think I'm headed in the right direction but I need more information.

Below I posted a few questions I posed in some other threads along with any replies I received. If you feel qualified, I would appreciate it if you would read them and offer any advice that seams like it might be what I'm looking for. Even if it's just a confirmation that I'm going in the right direction, that would help.

If you need more information, just ask. I'm pretty analytical about this stuff and should be able to answer any questions about what I'm doing on the board.

Thanks in advance!

Tim

[ohiomoto]

From: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24883

I bought my board back in 95 and never rode a soft boot until last season. I have fun carving on that board too.

Anyway, also never rode a true hard boot until about a week ago. I use to run 60/60 with my 29.5 ski boots and still had overhang. Now I run 55/55. I feel much better riding in the new boots. My biggest issue at this point is that I feel like I'm still searching for the key to consistent healside turns. It feels like if I rotate into the turn too much all the pressure goes to the front foot and the back of the board slides slightly. I get some really nice turns too, but I can't figure out the key to keeping the carve clean.

Once you initiated by rotation into the turn and driving the front knee, drive the board further up by pressing your rear knee into the turn too. Also, feed the board forward, under you, that would load the tail towards the end of the turn.

You are a skier - just like carving skis - both legs have to do their work...

Thank you. This is very helpful. That's what I've been doing so I know that I'm at least headed in the right direction.

Two more questions:

1) About rotation? Is it progressive and ongoing throughout the turn? What I mean is do you keep adding more or is there a point (maybe as you begin crossing the fall line as you exit the turn) at which you need to back off? I wonder if I might be over-rotating on my heal side turns. When I carve round turns on skis, I rotate my lower half/hips throughout the turn. I keep playing with it on the snowboard, but I'm not 100% sure what's going on yet.

(I'm not trying to take this too far off topic. I just think I need to understand this before I can fine tune my set up. )

2) I have the original TD1s with 3* in the back and 0* up front. My board will only allow me a 19" stance which is slightly narrower than my shoulders. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I can run too much more heal lift because my stance isn't very wide to begin with. The TD1s don't allow me to cant the boot outward, though I could use the cuff to open my knees up. I was thinking about putting the 3* disk up front and flat on the back. My thought was that it put more weight to the back foot and open up my back knee allowing me to drive it into the turn more. Or maybe I should try running less forward lean on the back boot even though it sounds counter productive. Do either of these idea have any merit?

1) I like the power that I feel I'm getting from the rotation on my healside, but still not sure if I'm over doing it. Any input here would be great.

2) I think my set is okay for now and I need to focus on my skills. But what do I know?

[ohiomoto]

From: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24911

Glad you like the vid! We are overdue for another one. You might find this article (with pictures!) helpful...

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm

Great article! I have seen the reaching for the snow syndrome. Lucky for me, my ski background keeps me straight. :)

The funny thing is my toeside is great but my healside is weaker. I'm still trying to find the right skill to execute it consistently. After reading and looking at the pictures in that article I realize that I'm not dropping the hips enough on my healside turns. I think I'm rotating my hips too much. Having my hips facing forward limits angulation and I stack up much like the good toeside turns you have pictured. The problem is that it's easier to create more edge angle on the toeside by using the knees and ankles. That won't work on the healside, so you have to drop the hips.

Does that make sense? I'll give it a try tomorrow and see if it helps.

As stated above, I like the stacked feeling I get from rotating towards the tip. I spent all day today working on it. I tried less rotation and break at the waist to allow my hips to drop, but felt less powerful. (I was not bent over at the waist. Just more upper/lower body separation and angulation. No "toilet seat" here :) ) Still not sure on this issue other that maybe I just need more practice and commitment?

We had hero snow today so I felt really good, but still managed to break the tail a couple of times.

Two things I did today that worked really well for me.

1) I tried reaching for my "outside" boot on my turns. I've always tried to keep my hands level, but this technique really did work! I imporved what I always thought was a strong point for me. Cool.

2) I used my back knee and ankle more than ever. Driving it back and forth across the board with each turn. I've always driven my rear knee behind the front. Today my moves were more latteral and I never really used it on my toeside before. Wow! This really did add power to my turns. I can see why some are moving towards lower binding settings.

[Hotbeans]

BlueB had some great advice that corrects my heelside chatter: make sure you're feeding the board through the arc so that you're low and your butt winds up over the rear of the board and carving edge. If your butt crack is offset from the edge at all, more than likely you'll run into issues.

[Tim W]

You might want to try driving the front foot heal side boot cuff. This will help set the edge and reduce washout. If you are regular you want to drive your left foot to the 10 o'clock position. If you are goofy then it is the right foot to the 2 o'clock position. Have fun!

[ohiomoto]

Thanks HotBeans. I think I'm close on that advice and it fits in perfectly with what I'm doing though I never use to feed the board. I think that is already helping. I'll pay more attention to my butt crack too. :)

Thanks Tim W. I've got that part. I have a bit of a figure eight movement pattern. I'm goofy. I if the center of the clock is neutral, my knee goes to 1, then 2, 3 and then works back to 4, 5 and then center for a healside turn. It then goes to 11, 10, 9 and then works back to 8, 7 and then center for the toeside. If you follow the pattern it look like a "8". Not sure how good I am at that though, so I'm probably working more diagonally as you described. If you think about it, the "8" should feed the board out...maybe I should pay a little more attention to that and see if I can improve it. Then again, maybe the "8" sucks? lol

Edit:

Another though on the 2pm movement of the knee. One of my issues is that I seam to have too much pressure on the front foot as I exit on the healside. It seams like this might make things worse. I have no problems initiating a healside turn, just finnishing it. On the other hand maybe more focus in this area will help get more edge angle which might help? Worth trying I suppose.

[Jack M]

Two things I did today that worked really well for me.

1) I tried reaching for my "outside" boot on my turns. I've always tried to keep my hands level, but this technique really did work! I imporved what I always thought was a strong point for me. Cool.

2) I used my back knee and ankle more than ever. Driving it back and forth across the board with each turn. I've always driven my rear knee behind the front. Today my moves were more latteral and I never really used it on my toeside before. Wow! This really did add power to my turns. I can see why some are moving towards lower binding settings.

Now you're cooking with gas. The back-hand/front-boot grab usually turns the light on for a lot of people on heelside. Also you can grab the front boot with your front hand on toeside.

Try a little outward cant on your back foot to really feel your back knee working. Unless you're naturally knock-kneed you'll probably like it. If you have TD2 or 3 for example, if your binding angle is 60, set the cant disc to 55 or 50.

Yes, back knee jammed into the back of the front knee is bad.

http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm

Re: finishing the heelside carve, as the turn comes around you want to progress towards your back foot and finish 60/40 or 70/30 back there. Think of feeding the board through the turn, knees moving forward underneath you throughout. Then you pull it back in the transition.

[ohiomoto]

Now you're cooking with gas. The back-hand/front-boot grab usually turns the light on for a lot of people on heelside. Also you can grab the front boot with your front hand on toeside.

Try a little outward cant on your back foot to really feel your back knee working. Unless you're naturally knock-kneed you'll probably like it. If you have TD2 or 3 for example, if your binding angle is 60, set the cant disc to 55 or 50.

Yes, back knee jammed into the back of the front knee is bad.

http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm

Re: finishing the heelside carve, as the turn comes around you want to progress towards your back foot and finish 60/40 or 70/30 back there. Think of feeding the board through the turn, knees moving forward underneath you throughout. Then you pull it back in the transition.

Okay, I'm getting the feeding thing over and over. I'll put a lot of focus there.

What about the rotation? When, where, and how much? Is it possible to over-rotate on the healside? Progressive or static rotation (keep rotating throughout the turn or just enough to start it and then "hold the position")?

The hands definitely helped out. I use to use the "tray" to keep the hands and shoulders level, but reaching for the boot keeps you level AND OVER THE EDGE! Awesome little tip and yes, I used it for both healside and toeside. I dig it!

I was really looking at those toeside pictures too. I know better than to reach for the snow and while sticking my ass in the air. That will get you nowhere fast. But I was looking at the open knees, specifically the back knee and how they were not tucked in. I gave it a try and I couldn't believe how much the back knee hooked up the toe side!! I sort of took the knee back and down into the turn/towards the snow. WOW! The light bulb went off immediately. "If I can adjust my set up so that my back knee out, starts further out it could work like that for my healside too!" Everything that I was reading from you about angles and canting made perfect sense.

TD1s so no canting there. I can bump the cuff on my boot out 2 degrees though. Should have the same effect. Also, If I bump the angle out a couple of more degrees and leave the forward lean down on the back boot that will move my knee out a little and give me more leverage when I bring it over on the healside.

Currently running 55/55 with 3* in the back. I have the original 3-1/2" disks so I'm pretty limited until I upgrade. Also, I should add I'm on a K2 Skinny 167 and I'm 6'3" 230. I realize that I will over power the board in less than ideal conditions. Also, about 19-1/2" stance width is all I can get out of it. I'll upgrade the board at some point, but there is room for improvement with my skill set so I may as well work on it now.

Tim

[kjl]

Okay, I'm getting the feeding thing over and over. I'll put a lot of focus there.

What about the rotation? When, where, and how much? Is it possible to over-rotate on the healside? Progressive or static rotation (keep rotating throughout the turn or just enough to start it and then "hold the position")?

I think the feeding thing is overemphasized, but that's just my opinion. I mean, I look at video of myself, and apparently I do it too, as my nose is often airborne when I make my edge change, but I never think about it. I think it just happens. Again, just my experience; I have no idea if that happens to other people.

Yes, you can overrotate on the heelside if your angles are not super high. At 55/55, you may notice that as you rotate very far, the board will twist torsionally and the edge angle near the back foot will go down, resulting in the tail letting go. You can fight it by driving that back knee towards the snow (using your thighmaster muscle), but it is hard.

[ohiomoto]

Yes, you can overrotate on the heelside if your angles are not super high. At 55/55, you may notice that as you rotate very far, the board will twist torsionally and the edge angle near the back foot will go down, resulting in the tail letting go. You can fight it by driving that back knee towards the snow (using your thighmaster muscle), but it is hard.

Thanks. That is exactly what I feel. The nose loads up, pressure builds up under the front foot and the tail gets light.

So besides fighting it off with the thighmaster muscle what else can I do. Back off the rotation? Bump up the angles?

I realize riding is the only way to sort it out. I'm just looking for ideas to take along with me.

[BlueB]

There are few schools of thought on rotation...

One approcah is to do rather quick one through initiation and then hold.

Other is more gradual through the first half of turn, then start backing of through the last 1/3 or 1/4 to get you ready for transition.

Last, but not least, you can ride perfectly well without any rotation, just alligned to the binding angles. However, by trying the no-rotation technique, it is easy to unvillingly counter-rotate, especially on the heel side. So, even when riding no-rotation, a bit of "anticipation" with shoulders is good.

Try them all, see what worked for you...

Back knee thing is very important on both sides.

Ah, almost forgot, there's also the typical French school technique - the counter-rotation! It's great for ligtening fast cross-unders and moguls. However, I don't like it much for railing longer turns.

[kjl]

You can

1) not rotate so much, angulate more at the waist and bend the knees a little less

2) rotate with your weight on the front foot and back off the rotation as you transfer your weight to the back foot as you prep for the next turn, as BlueB says

3) thighmaster that back leg in

4) bump up the angles

5) heel lift on the back foot (if not possible because you are on TD1s you could increase the forward lean of your back boot).

I think I do #1 and #2 mostly subconsciously now (and I did #5: put 3 degrees heel lift on the back foot), and I try to do #3 if it's steep and snow is hard and I really need to bring the A game... ok, the B+ game.

#4 has helped my heelside in the past but lessens my overall fluidity, flow, fun, etc..

[ohiomoto]

Thanks guys! I'm overdoing the rotation. I have been taking it all the way through the bottom of the turn. I'll try some of the things mentioned here.

[Jack M]

I'm not big on rotation as too much of it can upset your balance. As long as your back hand is somewhere that you can see it, you're probably all set. Also, having to do a big rotation to start heelside means that you probably ended your toeside turn with your chest facing the snow which is not the best thing to do.

Yeah, if your TD1s have cant discs, they slope along the long axis of the board, giving you some inward cant. Not what you want. Either lose the TD1s or do this... you can wedge nickels between the toe/heel pads and the baseplate on one side. If you have cant discs, this will negate the inward cant. If you have flat discs, this will give you a little outward cant. Either way, you'll probably like it better than what you have. Be careful when doing this. It's not sanctioned by Bomber, but I used to do it with success.

Ideally you should get some used TD2s or new TD3s for the cant/lift adjustment.

[ohiomoto]

I don't feel like I have any trouble with the transitions. The upper body is quiet and my lower body is quick to make a new edge. I feel really good everywhere except at the end of the healside turn where I can feel the edge break. I just keep adding rotation as I go through the healside to keep the hips squared up. It feels really good but then I feel the nose start to load up and sometimes I lose the tail slightly. Seems like I should be able to work it out pretty quckly with the ideas you guys have given me.

Quick question on the cants. Would putting my 3 degree disk under my front foot and the 0 under the back make more sense? I'm thinking that would give me more leverage towards the healside. The back knee would move out and back towards the toeside edge and the toeside knee would move back and cant in towards the toside edge. This should move me back and give me more leverage on the healside. I would lose the heal lift, but my stance is narrow anyway. Worth a try or bad idea?

[Jack M]

Yes, definitely try the 3 degree disc on the front foot. You still might want to try the nickels trick, but one thing at a time.

If you get another 3 degree disc, you can comfortably widen your stance by like an inch and you'll get better stability.

[ohiomoto]

Okay, I'll try that.

If you get another 3 degree disc, you can comfortably widen your stance by like an inch and you'll get better stability.

Not on my current board. It's oldschool and 19 is the max! A board and binding upgrade is in the cards at some point but I'll have to work with what I have for now.

I really appreciate everyones help. I feel really close to being solid through both turns. If I can clean up this little weak spot I think I'll have a solid foundation to work with. The funny thing is that all these years I thought the problem was because of the ski boots. The new boots boots are way better, but they didn't fix everything.

[Jack M]

Okay, I'll try that.

Not on my current board. It's oldschool and 19 is the max! A board and binding upgrade is in the cards at some point but I'll have to work with what I have for now.

19 isn't bad.

bindings?

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24948

[ohiomoto]

No cash for bindings at the present time. Maybe later in the spring...

I rode for about an hour today. Our snow has melted down into hard pack. Every one was saying it was ice :rolleyes:. Of course it was not ice, but I couldn't get comfortable on the board none the less. (Yet I still got a lot of complements on the lift. I had them fooled...suckers! :) )

Anyway, I bagged the board and grabbed the skis. It was awesome, super fast snow, hands so close to the snow that I could touch it and I booted out a couple of times. I had them cranked over and loved it. Like I said, I have a carving problem...I just can't get enough (and my healside turns slip once in while.)

I'll post an update when I get it sorted out. Thanks again for all of the help.

[Hotbeans]

make sure your upper body is upright at the finish of the turn. If I drop my upper body down at all, then my weight shifts towards the front foot ( I think it's in anticipation of the edge change) and my heelside washes a bit.

[ohiomoto]

Thanks Hotbeans, I will pay attention to my upper body. I'm fighting something as I finish the healside. Sounds so simple, but sometimes the simple things are overlooked.

[ohiomoto]

Yes, definitely try the 3 degree disc on the front foot...

We got some rain last week. I did go out one day, but just couldn't get comfortable with the conditions and eventually swapped out the board for my skis (I LOVE hard snow on my skis!!!)

I am not sure about the changes to the bindings. I made some strong toesides, but never felt great on the healside. I'll give another shot this week.

[ohiomoto]

Just wanted to thank everyone for all of the help. Our hill was able to open today and the conditions were actually pretty good.

I was able to sort out the healside a little. I did move the disks so that I was at 3 front / 0 rear, ran very little forward lean on the front boot and full lean on the rear. I cut down on the rotary, lined my butt crack up with the edge, fed the board out, etc...

Every thing helped a little, but I could still feel that pressure building up in the front foot on some of my healsides. Then I started messing around with the back knee. The last time out, I found success by driving the back knee towards the snow on my toeside turns and wanted to figure out how to make the knee work for my healside.

I did my old tuck the knee behind the front leg, then I tried to take the knee straight across the board from edge to edge. That was better. Then it dawned on my that I could work the knee back as I went across the board. BINGO!!! Pull the back against the cuff. The pressure goes to the heal and the cuff gives you the power. It's so simple...Duh!!!

I think my forward/lateral skiing ways were getting in the way, but now I opened up a whole new dimension. Our season is done here, but this should keep me busy next year. We'll see how it goes, but if today was any indication, I think my riding is headed to the next level. It should be fun.

Thanks again for all of the tips and ideas.

[Chris Houghton]

As Jack said earlier in the thread, a bit of outward cant on the rear binding (forget the boot cant, it goes the wrong way) gives you a better feel for rear cuff input on heelsides.

[ohiomoto]

Yeah, I'm limited with the TD1s, but I think going flat in back, which at least eliminated the inward cant helped. I'll either upgrade next year or mess around with what I have some more next season.

Still, I think the biggest thing that I realized is that I'm so use to skiing that I always go forward and side to side in against my boot cuff. So even a pure lateral move against the boot cuff to the healside still moves towards the tip of the board. See what I'm saying? I never really go to my heals! I never pulled my legs straight back against the cuff. I need to move more toe to heal in the boots which is really "edge to edge" instead of side to side (which is "edge to edge" on skis).

My brain has been stuck on skiing for years. I've gotten really good at it, but I've totally neglected the technical aspects of riding.