Board Characteristics & Specs

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hey@!

Thanks for chiming in about the boards.

I totally agree that being able to carve on a freestyle deck is necessary if you are to have any success in the pipe. We aren't talking eurocarves or GS, etc either.

Actually I think doing jumps on big kickers benefits from you carving while going up the lip. How else are you going to have enough speed to get up there? Look at the Todd Richards video's where he covers grabs for jumping - watch the approach and you can see he (and Billy A.) carves up to the lip.

I even did that yesterday on one of my jumps, since there was very little room to get any speed, (thanks to the layout of the park), other than by carving. I was talking with one of the guys at the park and he asked me how I got enough speed, to which my response was simple - carving.

My understanding of carving is and remains, putting the board on edge, balancing it, and leaving a thin line - whether you are making big 40 foot wide turns or bombing almost straight down the fall line. Norm carving doesn't require much inclination, you just lean a little and press down but it still is carving, not skidding.

It all depends on what you want to do and the guys in the pipe, at least the good ones, will carve the lines they need to get the speed for big air, etc.

[BShaw]

No, I do not ride the Half Pipe. Although I do watch both BoarderX and Half Pipe events on tv. Great HD coverage this year. No, I do not consider what they are doing in the pipe carving. On occasion, they will appear to carve a turn in boarderX.

I also do not consider turning and carving the same thing.

Really didn't mean to offend anyone.

With that said, I will stop replying to this post.

[Thumper]

As far as I can tell, they are near strait lining it, with very little inclination, in the pipe.

Are you kidding? If you have video, look at Shaun White as he transitions across the bottom of the pipe. He's definitely carving, otherwise he wouldn't be able to maintain his energy through the transition.

[BShaw]

OK, post the video and prove me wrong. I have no problem eating my words...

[Phil]

BShaw - I guess that the question is - what do you consider the definition of carving to be?

It sounds like your definition of carving and the popular definition of carving are at odds.

I have taught and coached halfpipe for years. One of the most basic skills I work on with students and athletes is carving.

You can also ride ANY modern board in the halfpipe. In the same way, you can carve on any modern board (with sidecut).

And no, turning and carving are not the same thing. I don't think that anyone here would disagree with you on that.

[pebu]

Carving would be following the sidecut of the board at any given decamberation. (Yeah, I think I just made that word up, what of it?) So yeah, pipers (That's a real word, but I just decided to make it up for this context) carve. I need to find the article I'll be back.

Edit:

Ok, I'm back...

"Carving" is the act of making a cleanly sliced turn without any sliding where your edge does all the work. The nose and tail of your board pass through the same points in the snow...

The above is from the article So You Want To Try Alpine Snowboarding.

[BShaw]

Wow, if that's the normal type of riding for the word carving, I am really surprised the we use that word on this board.

Hmm. I wonder what looks I would get if I carved (my use of the word) between and coming up the face of the jumps in the terrain park? Were doing the same thing write?

I do plenty of riding, when I am carving, I am leaving trenches...

If I am calling what I am doing the wrong thing, please let me know.

[pebu]

You're over-reacting. It's sounding like the nose and tail of your board go through the same point. You're carving. You're defintaly getting a hell of alot more into it than you would need to in a half-pipe or park, but either is considered carving as far as I'm concerned.

edit

I didn't mean to come off as demeaning or anything. I know alot of people don't like being told they're over-reacting. I'm just sayin...

[lonerider]

You're over-reacting. It's sounding like the nose and tail of your board go through the same point. You're carving. You're defintaly getting a hell of alot more into it than you would need to in a half-pipe or park, but either is considered carving as far as I'm concerned.

edit

I didn't mean to come off as demeaning or anything. I know alot of people don't like being told they're over-reacting. I'm just sayin...

I would say that BShaw is more of a carving-purist who believes in a more "aggressive" definition of carving. Like we all agree that a halfpipe rider or a SBX racer portions of their runs... but I don't think any of us would automatically call one of them a "carver" unless we saw them laying trenches on the slopes. So on that point I don't think he's really that far off from the rest of us.

Finding a board that can both carve and ride in a pipe will be very difficult at best.

However, he is incorrect about halfpipe riding (he admits to having little knowledge or interest in it). Pipe riding is all about carving across the middle and up the walls (it's better to flat board and let you momentum carry you up the wall). As mentioned, you don't need to carve a deep trench, but you do need to carve... so carving boards are actually quite good for getting air in the pipe. I have ridden the Donek Incline and the Donek Phoenix in the pipe and both are good in the pipe. I liked the Phoenix better because the extra stiffness of the Incline is less fun when doing rails and spins on jumps (I actually ride a Nitro T2 and a Salomon Benedek for park/pipe now - the Benedek can still lay down a mean trench).

Here are two photos - me in the pipe on a Donek and Jeff Greenwood (Donek SBX team rider)

[pebu]

but I don't think any of us would automatically call one of them a "carver" unless we saw them laying trenches on the slopes.

I guess I would tend to agree with that.

[BShaw]

Wow, now I'm a little impressed. "Half pipe in hardboots"

Great Pic, got any more.

When people ask me about carving, and what kind of equipment they need for carving. I do not recommed they try laying out turns with their current short, flexible, small sidecut, park board. They will either end up hurting themselves or their equipment.

So if what they are doing in the pipe and terrain park. And what instructors are calling carving is different than what I am thinking carving is....

So yes, I am a little (lot) confussed. What is the kind of riding called that we do on this board. I have always referred what I do as "carving".

[V*L*A*D]

you want to be really frustrated? try teaching skiing in Europe and being bombarded with newbies (who can't even turn, yet) demanding "carving" or "funcarving" lessons....

i've actually weathered angry parents complaining to me that little Klaus isn't laying out "fun carves" after his first two hours on the E$700 carving skis he got for Christmas....

evidently my staff sucked....

[lonerider]

Wow, now I'm a little impressed. "Half pipe in hardboots"

Great Pic, got any more.

When people ask me about carving, and what kind of equipment they need for carving. I do not recommed they try laying out turns with their current short, flexible, small sidecut, park board. They will either end up hurting themselves or their equipment.

So if what they are doing in the pipe and terrain park. And what instructors are calling carving is different than what I am thinking carving is....

So yes, I am a little (lot) confussed. What is the kind of riding called that we do on this board. I have always referred what I do as "carving".

It's all matters of degree... like Crocodile Dundee when he says "That's not a knife... THIS is a knife" (I linked a video from Youtube for you).

Sure halfpipe riders and SBX get some carves in... but as you said, short, soft, sub-8m sidecut park boards are not ideal for carving (although I don't think trying to carve on those boards would actually hurt the rider or the board). I always say that "deep carving" is done with alpine board and hardboots... but there's plenty of carving to be hard with a softboot setup (just not as extreme). Speaking of extreme... I'm sure the EC-guys from extremecarving.com would also tell you "That's not carving... THIS is carving" with a wink ;) This is not designed to bash freestyler rider (I do quite a bit of park myself) or argue about technique... I'm trying to point out that everyone has fun in a lot of difference ways... but in the end, carving is also about thin lines in the snow (although for Ec'er there might be a huge rooster tail in there as well for good measure).

[BShaw]

lol,

Confusing, All snowboarding is alpine snowboarding, I have never seen anyone cross country snowboard...

Way to much overlap in the language.

And yes, I can carve on my Donek Wide with soft boots. Deep trench, laid out carving. Although my hardboots on this board are much more comfortable for this type of riding.

[Steve Prokopiw]

A carved turn can be accomplished on any type of board with any type of boots depending on the skill of the rider. A carved turn is one in which the length of the contact edge follows a line with as little lateral slippage as possible.We are never quite absolute(although it may look that way) in having the tail follow the same line as the nose as there is always lateral force toward the outside of a turn.That's where we experience the illusion of accelleration as we steer the board in the opposite direction.This can be done on softies very well by a skilled softbooter.My good buddy'Sando' ruled the skischool race series on a Supermodel and Ios at Vail for several years.Most people on the slopes think of us hardbooters as mainly carvers because it's the carving experience/performance that we have generally chosen this equipment to enhance ;ie trenches in addition to thin lines.

One funny thing I found when I moved up here (Idaho)was that many people will say they are carving when what they really mean is that they are simply linking turns.By the way,pipe riding and big air in hardboots is alot of fun and easier on my ankles.

[BShaw]

Amazing how off topic this got.

[RDY_2_Carve]

Amazing how off topic this got.

Us lurkers were wondering the same thing....

[Mike T]

That's where we experience the illusion of accelleration as we steer the board in the opposite direction.

People who hate math and physics, stop reading...

It's not an illusion - it really is acceleration.

Acceleration is defined as change in velocity with time. Velocity is a vector quantity with a "direction" component in addition to a "speed" component (where "speed" is defined as what you measure on a speedometer - miles per hour, meters per second, etc).

Thus an object that is travelling in a circular path (for example a car on a circular track, or the earth moving around the sun, or a snowboarder carving through a turn) is *always* accelerating. What you are feeling is real acceleration. If you shut your eyes, going around a moderate curve at 65mph feels almost the same to the passenger as flooring it in a straight line (obviously try this from the passenger seat!)

I was hoping wikipedia would provide a reference, but their acceleration article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) is far, far more advanced.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I stand corrected. In my misguided opinion it appears I may have been refering to decelleration(actual reduction of speed of the board/rider)which is still accelleration (change in direction)according to the laws of physics.

Ironically,Mike I have often described hard carving to my clients as having the sensation of bending gravity which after reading more in Wikepedia isn't that far off. It's just plain fun.

[V*L*A*D]

A carved turn can be accomplished on any type of board with any type of boots depending on the skill of the rider. A carved turn is one in which the length of the contact edge follows a line with as little lateral slippage as possible.We are never quite absolute(although it may look that way) in having the tail follow the same line as the nose as there is always lateral force toward the outside of a turn.That's where we experience the illusion of accelleration as we steer the board in the opposite direction.This can be done on softies very well by a skilled softbooter.My good buddy'Sando' ruled the skischool race series on a Supermodel and Ios at Vail for several years.Most people on the slopes think of us hardbooters as mainly carvers because it's the carving experience/performance that we have generally chosen this equipment to enhance ;ie trenches in addition to thin lines.

One funny thing I found when I moved up here (Idaho)was that many people will say they are carving when what they really mean is that they are simply linking turns.By the way,pipe riding and big air in hardboots is alot of fun and easier on my ankles.

'lateral force' is, by definition, to the outside. a sideways force to the inside would be 'medial'. when referring to both, we say 'medialateral'.

what you're describing, though, is centripetal force.

try not to pigeonhole the definition of "carve" too much- many of us were laying out beautiful, full carves in the mid-80s on the first edition Burton "Air" before we graduated to the "comp I-III safari" series, while wearing sorels with ski boot liners. freeheel skiers carve, motorcyclists carve (using eerily similar counterpart forces and radius-specific angulation to that of an alpine 'boarder)

etc. .... let's not allow the dialectics to defeat the essence of the thing.

carving rocks.

period.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Sorry about contributing to this getting off topic.In the future I will read up before using any term out of it's true scientific context.I should know better than to do that on this site.

[V*L*A*D]

...just trying to keep the confusion level to a low, albeit inane & rushing, "whoosh".

technojargon, despite all attempts toward correct application, can take the fun and the 'oomph' out of an otherwise pleasurable pastime... I'm sure we all know what carving is...and is not.

...the next logical step would be certification pins for freecarving:freak3:

[Pow]

back on track, I would like to do a little debriefing going by what baboo girl said:

bamboo girl had a slight malfunction switching edges on the crossbow... she couldnt get the board over to the other edge quick enough. If she wants to nail the high speed turns, she'll either need hardboots (more power transfer), a narrower board (quicker edge change), or both. Otherwise, it will take more time and effort to haul the board into the next turn, with more possibility for error. And thats why many alpine boards have near 70 degree binding angles;) So if this is your only carving issue at this point, then youve basically reached the peak of softboot gear's carving potential. About the only way to gain any more advantage in the carving field is to go hard.

another interesting conclusion: women's specific boards arent necessarily better for women. The Push got raved about by magazines, yet from your post it seems the push might be the one board you could do without. You have a board you prefer in the park, the mystic, and a board that you seem to prefer for charging the mountain, the crossbow. the Push has fallen through the cracks! Next time I take my girlfriend snowboard shopping, I think I'll have to keep your post in mind.

[V*L*A*D]

back on track, I would like to do a little debriefing going by what baboo girl said:

bamboo girl had a slight malfunction switching edges on the crossbow... she couldnt get the board over to the other edge quick enough. If she wants to nail the high speed turns, she'll either need hardboots (more power transfer), a narrower board (quicker edge change), or both. Otherwise, it will take more time and effort to haul the board into the next turn, with more possibility for error. And thats why many alpine boards have near 70 degree binding angles;) So if this is your only carving issue at this point, then youve basically reached the peak of softboot gear's carving potential. About the only way to gain any more advantage in the carving field is to go hard.

another interesting conclusion: women's specific boards arent necessarily better for women. The Push got raved about by magazines, yet from your post it seems the push might be the one board you could do without. You have a board you prefer in the park, the mystic, and a board that you seem to prefer for charging the mountain, the crossbow. the Push has fallen through the cracks! Next time I take my girlfriend snowboard shopping, I think I'll have to keep your post in mind.

...or she'll need to adapt or alter her present technique...essentially improving it so that she's not reliant upon 'jamming' her weight transfer in order to transmit her pressure from one edge to another.

One of the greatest centering and pressuring exercises which i employ with atheletes wishing to improve their 'carving' is to have them ride a course with their boots virtually unbuckled; that is, 'loose...with extreme prejudice'....

this trains us how to utilize flow and forward forces in order to initiate a rapid and smooth transfer, as opposed to simply 'cranking'.

when an alpine 'boarder masters forward drive, he/she has added another dimension by which he /she can vary radii to uit terrain/condition/pitch and velocity

[Pow]

sounds like some crazy ancient chinese martial arts secrets! ... i think i have a lot of work ahead of me next season:eplus2: