The Norm and beyond...

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hey!

Nice pics, thanks for sharing. I can really see how both the trailing hand and one's butt, sort to speak, should be positioned for those heelside turns.

Somewhere on this site, I had read, but never really understood, the whole concept of feeding the dollar bill. I thought, damn, I just put the dollar bill and the machine takes it! Anyway, back to riding...I've just concentrated on staying as relaxed on the board as possible and doing absolutely no steering, pushing, or pulling. Just getting my body position right, angulating, and looking where I wanna go. Now that I think about it, even when I'm trying to keep foot pressure even, I notice that when you go into the second half of the carve, the weight feels like it is over my back foot.

I am actually really comfortable with my binding angles, 32/26 (for carving that is). Like I said, I'm tall, and my deck is not especially wide for a freeride board, (like 24.3, http://www.arborsports.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=PUSH&Category_Code=WSNOW).

I actually increased the angles because I felt my boots were touching the snow when I really got low for carving. For jibbing, it is no problem since I don't get that low on the board or really angulate that much. Also, I kind of like facing more towards the nose of the board when carving than being sideways. Then there was this neck pain I had been getting too, from trying to carve with a duck stance.

I ride duck in the park but I'm sure you can carve that way too in softies. The instructor I had recently had that setup.

Anyway, this board turns really hard and fast, more smaller turns than the big sweeping ones you see in the vids. It has a lot of pop in the tail and maybe that's why I can get a little air between carves. That or I might be exaggerating the cross-under when i change edges maybe, not sure. I'd be happy to just carve up the green runs back and forth. We have some nice vanity runs at the places I go to.

I looked into camcorders and stuff, wow, expensive! Like 3 bills and then some. While I'd like to have one, I'd rather spend that on a season pass or some more park lessons!

It is thursday, we are closer to the weekend and hopefully another pair of great riding days. I rode yesterday, but that was just playing at the park.

I'm so excited to try all these things you have suggested. It would be great to get some air and nail those heelsides.

Thanks for the tips, you all are really helpful to a newbie!

[Rob Stevens]

Philfell said it and I don't know if anyone else did.

Keep your weight even on both feet. Even if you're not trying to, your weight will naturally shift forward as you head to the fall line. Weight on your front foot more than your back foot is the enemy of basic carving.

Try this on mellow terrain:

-Get into a position that has your shouders and hips facing the average direction of your toes. Relax.

-Go straight down the hill to pick up a bit of speed. You don't need too much.

-With weight even on BOTH FEET, rock back onto your heels and just STAND THERE. PF said the board is designed to turn. The sidecut, at this point should do all the work for you. Hold that turn until you can go back uphill (watch the traffic).

-Look back. Did you leave a narrow track? If you did, move on.

As you progress with this, you can start to move out of the fall line. In the first one, you went straight and turned out of the fall line. Next, try starting a bit on your toes, so you have to go across a flat base to your heels. By starting on your toes, with a higher and higher toeside traverse every time, you'll eventually be doing a full heelside turn.

The angles of your bindings shouldn't go higher than they are. They're probably too high right now. SBX stances are about as high as you should go with soft bindings. As PF mentioned, once you go over a certain point, your highbacks will be out of position. I don't know of any soft binding manufacturer who designs in highback rotation over 10 - 15 degrees.

Oh yeah, take a lesson, but if you're going to pay for it, ask for the highest certified instructor you can get and if you want more specific advice on an on-line forum, post a video clip of yourself.

[D-Sub]

sidecut radius = 7.6m

there's one thing that'll have to change if you want to do bigger, more stable turning.

[abakker]

in a video, you don't need super high resolution. many cell phones now can take reaonable decent length low res videos easily. that should be enough to let you do an on hill diagnostic of body position, even if you can't see the facial expressions you are making.

[Pow]

Ive got a great picture of me skidding to a sit after a carve (friend with the camera took the shot wayy too late, when i was already asking him how it turned out). In turning to skid/sit, It gives the appearance of the worst heelside carve Imaginable.

notice:

- rear arm behind my body

- "sitting on the toilet" butt extention

- head facing opposite direction of what was my carve

- reaching for snow (not sure if this was covered here, but dont reach for the snow! your hand may touch the snow, but dont do it on purpose!)

- counter-rotation (again not sure if this was covered, but dont twist against the carve)

my form is far from perfect, but it isnt as bad as the picture implies. the picture was just taken at a terrible time (and i will get back at my friend), but its good to have a photo to show what not to do i guess:biggthump

[Fastskiguy]

Ive got a great picture of me skidding to a sit after a carve (friend with the camera took the shot wayy too late, when i was already asking him how it turned out). In turning to skid/sit, It gives the appearance of the worst heelside carve Imaginable. biggthump

Heh, well if you note the carve across the fall line, back uphill, then see that you're skidding to a stop *uphill*... it looks pretty good.

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hi...

I'm going to see if I can borrow a camcorder, or a digital camera that records movies (I have one, but it doesn't do movies). Worst case scenario, I'll use the cell-phone and post something here sunday or monday.

Heh...I'll probably need the time in between to get ready to have my form ripped to shreds

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hmmm, monday already :(

Anyway, I rode both days and tried as many of your suggestions as possible. On saturday, I forgot my binding tool, and ended up riding all day in my freestyle stance (duck). That actually was alright for norm carving. It seemed much easier to keep my weight even and balanced on the board while carving. The one thing that is very hard to do, at least for me, while trying to carve in a duck stance, is avoiding that whole 'sitting on the toilet' thing you all spoke of on heelsides. I guess maybe because your knees are sort of pointing in opposite directions, it seems hard to turn the body enough to get your butt over the board. Plus your upper body is sort of facing sideways and not towards the nose of the board. Then, for just basic, easy carving, it was OK and with softies, maybe that's what I ought to expect.

Sunday I found someone who was willing to do some video for me. So of course, I blew a backside 180 on a jump, landing hard on my tailbone and ended up being done for the day. OUCH!

I think I'm going to tinker with the setup on my board. When I don't carve, oftentimes I feel it is because I'm not putting enough weight on my back foot. I've had it drilled in my head, ad nauseum, to put weight on the front, so when I miss carves, I think that's one big reason. I had setup my bindings on the first of the holes (for both the front and back) so maybe that isn't helping. Also it was a fairly narrow stance. So I'm thinking I may try to widen it a bit as well as setting it back some too. That should help get my weight more evenly. Like one of you said, it is all about staying balanced over the edge, and then you carve.

Peace :)

[jnshapiro]

You might reposition your bindings so that they are more centered on the board. There is an article about that in that section. It's in this one: http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/setup.cfm

[Jrobb]

Bamboo,

My gf rides the same board you have. I've got her setup dead center with adjustments made for her rather wide stance (she's 5'4" and stance is 21"). Front binding on center stamp, rear binding one insert back of that. She noted that in deeper pow, she'd like them back a bit more, so I'd go one insert back from center front...and two inserts back from center on back. She rides 15F 3R all positive. And yes, duck will keep your body position away from perfect if you don't have a wide splay to begin with.(for carving that is)

J

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hey, so can your girlfriend carve with that setup then?

I feel comfortable doing the very basic, norm, bean-pole carving in a duck stance. Anything beyond that, like having your shoulders or upper body face the front of the board is not possible - for me anyway, maybe for others.

I'm going to try again this weekend with my forward stance and angles, but I'll move everything back a bit. I've gotten enough awareness while riding to at least realize that when my carves don't work it is because I'm not putting enough weight on my back foot. So, we'll see how it goes.

I'll be in Durango this coming weekend so it will be a whole new mountain to play in. Plus, I hear they have a real halfpipe there, imagine :)

[Jrobb]

Hey, so can your girlfriend carve with that setup then?

I feel comfortable doing the very basic, norm, bean-pole carving in a duck stance. Anything beyond that, like having your shoulders or upper body face the front of the board is not possible - for me anyway, maybe for others.

I'm going to try again this weekend with my forward stance and angles, but I'll move everything back a bit. I've gotten enough awareness while riding to at least realize that when my carves don't work it is because I'm not putting enough weight on my back foot. So, we'll see how it goes.

I'll be in Durango this coming weekend so it will be a whole new mountain to play in. Plus, I hear they have a real halfpipe there, imagine :)

She can carve toeside when she wants or when I have her work on technique (that only lasts a few runs then she gets bored). Heelsides not so well but she rides anything I can, just much much slower and less precise. She's not as concerned with skill progression as you sound like you are and she's just happy to be my "duckling"...follow me all over the place. She's on a 156 too up from a 148 very noodly Nidecker Elle. So far she loves the new board, and I think it's just a matter of time before she realizes how much more control she now has with the stiffer, more responsive board. Here's a pic of her on her old board: http://flowskipixkirkwood.smugmug.com/gallery/2407202#126169626-M-LB

I too had issues gettign used to the higher angles. It will take time. I've been gradually working upwards from 30/30 to 40/40 but that's hardboots. In softies, where you said your angles 36/26? that was about my comfortable max. It took me a solid 3days of riding to get that committed to memory. Now it feels normal. Starting out it seems more comfortable to face the edges instead of the nose.

J

[dshack]

Anyone ride with just toe lift? I've been riding my ultra prime at meadows, and while there tend to be some carving opportunities in the morning, I like to be able to handle powder runs and the softening on the snow in the late day.

This sunday, I started out riding with pure toe lift, and while it felt super-comfortable, I'm worried that it hinders getting my weight into a hard carve. Any thoughts?

[Jrobb]

Anyone ride with just toe lift? I've been riding my ultra prime at meadows, and while there tend to be some carving opportunities in the morning, I like to be able to handle powder runs and the softening on the snow in the late day.

This sunday, I started out riding with pure toe lift, and while it felt super-comfortable, I'm worried that it hinders getting my weight into a hard carve. Any thoughts?

You mean toe lift only and no cant?

J

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hi again...

So she is 5'4" (is that right?) and is on a 156? Woah, interesting. I'm like half a foot taller and on the same size board. Maybe that is too small? Or at least for carving? It feels good for tricks and jibbing at least, it is light, lively, and with plenty of spring, oh yeah, and great looks/topsheet.

I read that whole sidecut thing where my board makes smaller turns. Is a board with a bigger sidecut a lot different in feel and performance? I really dig those videos where you see the people making really big, circular carves. I don't want a dedicated alpine setup, just maybe something like a boardercross or good all-mountain board, maybe next year.

I definitely want to learn more. The days I enjoy the least are the ones where I feel I didn't learn anything or didn't do anything I had before. That feeling of stagnating or not progressing, woah, no thanks! I see a fair number of people riding who tell me they've been doing it for years but are nowhere beyond like intermediate level. Then, to each person, they have to choose. Me? I want to get better, and when I feel I'm getting stale, I invariably take a lesson. Even for something as silly as learning how to do nose/tail rolls or air to fakies.

Oftentimes the runs I go on can get really crowded and full of peeps who aren't riding particularly safe and way too fast(especially skiers). It would be nice to make those really quick, short carves to move around in those tight spaces.

So that said, any tips on cross-under? I can already make dynamic, short skidded turns, but haven't really figured out the carved ones. Can you do that on a board like mine? Is it just sucking up your knees like they say and bouncing to the other/opposite edge?

[Pow]

So that said, any tips on cross-under? I can already make dynamic, short skidded turns, but haven't really figured out the carved ones. Can you do that on a board like mine? Is it just sucking up your knees like they say and bouncing to the other/opposite edge?

To do cross under turns, it'll help to try and keep your torso as low to the ground as possible inbetween carves. Do not stand up or even make an attempt to go upright on the edge change, and cross unders should happen. cross under makes for much tighter, controlled turns. It's also way more tiring than cross over. Ive found that cross under turns also provide more edge hold on less than perfect conditions (loose granular, icy)

as for "a board like yours", im not too sure... I dont really see why not, as long as you have your binding angles high enough to eliminate boot out.

[dshack]

You mean toe lift only and no cant?

J

No, I've got a little cant on the toes. I mean a lifted/canted front foot and a flat back one.

[Jrobb]

Mine are lifted only in front 4mm via spacers (snowpro). I think the heel is flat...at least I didn't install anything after I got them. So each has 3deg inward cant and 4mm toe lift (on front only). Perfornmance wise I can't say since this is all I've ridden, but I like it so far.

J

[Jrobb]

Yup, she's 5'4" bout 145? (as I duck for cover??) She demoed (before buying the Push) Burton Raven 156 and Rice burner (libtech) 152. She didn't like the 152 as it felt too small. But lover the 156. She's also ridden my 161 swallowtail on 3+ft and loved the float so she decided the 156 should be perfect...and it is.

ON the cross under, ou can do it on your board and it may be easier as it's more turny than a turny alpine bpoard. You'll be ablel to nock em down at lower speed to start, then as your speed picks up they will come into their own. They are easier to do faster for me...though they are far from perfect.

J

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Hmm, maybe I should be on a bigger board? At least for higher speed, big-mountain riding, or carving. I'm a good bit taller and bigger, like 6" and 25 pounds, than your partner but ride the same size board (156). It is really nimble and lithe in the park though, as well as for tricks.

Oh yeah, and I like to lead not follow! ;)

Cross-under...I believe it about those being more work. Doing those skidded, short, dynamic turns is a workout as is. I sort of figured out you have to get low because otherwise there is no way to suck up your legs on the edge change. Cross-under seems hard not just only due to the physical effort, but also as it tends to happen much quicker. So I imagine you need to sort of have your technique down pat, rather than be thinking about it as you are doing it. At least with cross-over it happens a little slower.

Anyway, you should still feel that weightless sensation while doing cross-under carves, right?

I sort of incorporate a cross-under during my edge transitions even while norm carving. It seems a lot more stable than standing up and moving my entire body over to the other edge. Not to mention it controls speed better since you don't glide as long.

Also, I've change my stance a bit, I think I'm working with a 2.5-3" setback now and a 19.5" width. I'm thinking a little more width would be good, maybe an inch. I might play with the angles too, we'll see. Anyway, I've got 3 full days in colorado coming up this weekend, so I'll have plenty of chances.

[lonerider]

Hmm, maybe I should be on a bigger board? At least for higher speed, big-mountain riding, or carving. I'm a good bit taller and bigger, like 6" and 25 pounds, than your partner but ride the same size board (156). It is really nimble and lithe in the park though, as well as for tricks.

Anyway, you should still feel that weightless sensation while doing cross-under carves, right?

I sort of incorporate a cross-under during my edge transitions even while norm carving. It seems a lot more stable than standing up and moving my entire body over to the other edge. Not to mention it controls speed better since you don't glide as long.

Also, I've change my stance a bit, I think I'm working with a 2.5-3" setback now and a 19.5" width. I'm thinking a little more width would be good, maybe an inch. I might play with the angles too, we'll see. Anyway, I've got 3 full days in colorado coming up this weekend, so I'll have plenty of chances.

Yes, for freestyle it is okay to drop a few centimeters on your board length. for carving, you might want to size up a bit. At 6'0 170 lbs, you could definitely go longer than 156 for a freeride/freecarve board. I'm 5'9" 145 lbs, and I ride 156-158 cm freeride boards, but then I ride a 152 cm board for rails and spin as well.

Yes, you still feel a weightless sensation with a cross-under and yes they are much faster. As you have noticed, they are useful on steep slopes when you don't have much time to change edges without picking up to much speed and on bumps when you need to dart back and forth across the slope.

2.5-3" setback is a lot of setback and probably unnecessary. Are you sure you are not talking about 2.5-3 cm? At your height, 19.5" is rather narrow - especially for strap bindings. I'm 5'9" with short legs (30" inseam) and I ride 19.5" alpine and 21" freestyle. It's very variable... but I've been told that a "starting point" is using the length of your lower leg (ankle to knee) - for me that's 19.5". I don't say that's it's a golden rule... but I still think you are a bit narrow. From my experience with other people your height, a freestyle stance width is generally in the 22-24" range.

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

Yes, for freestyle it is okay to drop a few centimeters on your board length. for carving, you might want to size up a bit. At 6'0 170 lbs, you could definitely go longer than 156 for a freeride/freecarve board. I'm 5'9" 145 lbs, and I ride 156-158 cm freeride boards, but then I ride a 152 cm board for rails and spin as well.

Yes, you still feel a weightless sensation with a cross-under and yes they are much faster. As you have noticed, they are useful on steep slopes when you don't have much time to change edges without picking up to much speed and on bumps when you need to dart back and forth across the slope.

2.5-3" setback is a lot of setback and probably unnecessary. Are you sure you are not talking about 2.5-3 cm? At your height, 19.5" is rather narrow - especially for strap bindings. I'm 5'9" with short legs (30" inseam) and I ride 19.5" alpine and 21" freestyle. It's very variable... but I've been told that a "starting point" is using the length of your lower leg (ankle to knee) - for me that's 19.5". I don't say that's it's a golden rule... but I still think you are a bit narrow. From my experience with other people your height, a freestyle stance width is generally in the 22-24" range.

Hmmm, uh, help me out here a little, I'm trying to understand. Oh and I'm more like 5'10ish, than 6'0".

So you had mentioned riding something of a duck stance (like 18/-3??) on your freestyle deck (with soft boots I assume). I've tried carving with a duck stance and it is ok, for basic, norm-style carving. When things get a bit more dynamic and the upperbody is put into play, I find it hard to do anything more than norm carving in a duck stance. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough or as flexible as I need to be in my torso.

Is it realistic to do more dynamic carves in a duck stance? Probably you and others can, but I don't know that I am able to.

When I rode primarily in the park, I used to be a good bit wider and further back. That gave me good balance and gnarly ollies/jumps. As it was, when I learned to snowboard this year, we had a number of powder days so I started off with the notion of really weighting my backfoot.

For regular freeriding though, outside of powder conditions, I realized that sitting on my backfoot wasn't so good. So I narrowed my stance a little and brought myself up to practically 0" offset. Then I was on my front foot a lot, which has actually made carving hard because I tend to put so little weight on the back foot. My carves would often turn to skids in the 2nd half with the tell tale, circular, but widening path as the turn progressed.

Anyway, that is why I was thinking of using some setback and getting a little wider too, maybe to about 20.5-21 for carving, more like 22-23 for freestyle.

[Steve Prokopiw]

This is a bad tech to use with your set up. You have soft boots with a moderate stance angle. My advice is to lessen your angles for carving a touch. Your angles are steeper than many world cup SBXers I know. If anyone knows what works for carving a soft boot set-up these guys know. Try more like 24 in the front and 15 in the rear. Keep your body aligned with your angles don't do any twisting with your upper body. Bend your kneed and focus your pressure evenly on your heels.

Your snowboard is made to carve. If you put it on edge and do nothing it will carve. So you have to trouble shoot in your riding to find out what you are doing to make it skid instead of carve. Keep it simple and work from there.

The second paragraph of this quote by philfell may be the best advice I have ever read on carving.

[metjeep]

... might try just shifting both bindings towards the heel side a bit. Not necessarilly suggesting this as a long term solution, but something that might help give you the feel for better heel side turns (although likely at the expense of the toe side turns). Also, too much forward lean on the boots when they are across the board can sometimes mess up the heel side turns (gets the board too steep too quick and your weight can't get down low enough so you just skid or chatter out or the board tries to toss you over).

Also, putting your board on and just standing around and hopping a bit on a carpeted floor can tell you quite a bit. Should be able to get in something approximating your general riding stance, close your eyes, hop 8-10 times (not a lot, just get the whole board off of the floor), open your eyes and still be REAL close to the same place you started. Any sideways shifting or rotation is a fairly good indication that your set-up could be off and that you are fighting something that could be adjusted better. The sideways shifting seems to be generally due to not having your weight (in a natural stance) centered on the long axis of the board, and the rotation seems to have to do with the angles of your feet/hips and how things twist as you absorb the impact. Pretty much want to take it in the knees and hip joints without rotating the hips and throwing things off. Might need to change the front binding angle, back binding angle, or the difference in the angles, you will just have to experiment a bit. All of this should be also be comfortable, if you are straining anything or working hard to keep the board in line, something is likely out of adjustment.

Final thought is to take the adjustment tools with you so you can put the bindings back the way you had time in case any of this makes things worse!

[lonerider]

Hmmm, uh, help me out here a little, I'm trying to understand. Oh and I'm more like 5'10ish, than 6'0".

So you had mentioned riding something of a duck stance (like 18/-3??) on your freestyle deck (with soft boots I assume). I've tried carving with a duck stance and it is ok, for basic, norm-style carving. When things get a bit more dynamic and the upperbody is put into play, I find it hard to do anything more than norm carving in a duck stance. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough or as flexible as I need to be in my torso.

Is it realistic to do more dynamic carves in a duck stance? Probably you and others can, but I don't know that I am able to.

When I rode primarily in the park, I used to be a good bit wider and further back. That gave me good balance and gnarly ollies/jumps. As it was, when I learned to snowboard this year, we had a number of powder days so I started off with the notion of really weighting my backfoot.

For regular freeriding though, outside of powder conditions, I realized that sitting on my backfoot wasn't so good. So I narrowed my stance a little and brought myself up to practically 0" offset. Then I was on my front foot a lot, which has actually made carving hard because I tend to put so little weight on the back foot. My carves would often turn to skids in the 2nd half with the tell tale, circular, but widening path as the turn progressed.

Anyway, that is why I was thinking of using some setback and getting a little wider too, maybe to about 20.5-21 for carving, more like 22-23 for freestyle.

Oh sorry, I thought you said you were 6', not 6" taller than 5'4" (I interpreted the 6'' as a typo of 6' - which is clearly not what you said upon re-reading your post).

I only told you my freestyle angles just to give you another data point (very few people here actually do park riding, so their opinions are understandably colored). I can carve on that setup, but I would not recommend duck if you are focusing on learning how to carve. Some other things to note are that my binding may not quite grip my boot exactly at the degree marks, so I might actually be riding at was like 18/-3 or 18/0 when I torquing my feet. Finally, 18/-6 is rather mild compared to 15/-15 type stances. As Phil said, to carve you really just need to get the board up on edge and have you weight balanced over it - that is much easier to do with certain binding angles for certain setups - but the majority of the time is figuring out how to twist your hips/knees/ankles to do that (whether using 55/50 or 15/-15).

Some setback is good for carving... but not too much (you kind of want to be lined up with your sidecut). A lot of setback is good for powder as it automatically weights the tail of the board more (so you don't have to consciously weight your back foot so much). I agree with going with a little bit of setback (0.5-1" maybe), especially if the board is a freeride board (the board designers intended the board to be ridden with a little bit of setback). I think you plans for setback and stance width sound like a good idea.

In addition to setback contolling front/back foot weighting. You also need to control your weight distribution during the carve - weight your front foot more in the beginning of the turn (this will initiate the turn quickly at the nose end of your board) and then progressively shift you weight to the back of the board. This lead you to heavily weighting you back foot at the end of the turn. However, never bring your center of gravity past your feet (toward the nose or the tail) you are just shifting you weight... not leaning over the nose/tail (like when you do a nose/tailpress).

These are all just how I see things.