Waist width and boot size

[Jrobb]

In your (collective) experience can you give me some boot size, binding angle and board width's that worked or didn't work. I've got 29's and prefer a lower angle for now and am curious what waist widths work for what boots at below say 50deg.

J

[Kimo]

I've got 29.5s and rode the Blade 180, but can't remember exactly what angles I used. If you have TD2s, you can figure this out. We originally set the angles at the limit of where the set screws were, around 45 degrees. Then I had to move the screws to the next position to allow another 3 to 5 degrees increase. I'm guessing that was around 50 degrees.

Sorry, but that's the best I have to offer.

[Jrobb]

Kimo, that's fine but what was the width of the board if you remember? I'm trying to figure out the minimum width I could possibly fit with 29's and between 50 and 30 deg. Currently I run 35/30 on a 25cm board, but want to find out how narrow I can go at lowest possible angles.

J

[Bullwings]

current boots i've been using so far: Suzukas 29

board and waist width: ATV 161 with 23.4cm width

angles: ~ 52f/48r +/- 3* since TD2s don't give you an exact number and sort of just spin freely

on the note of the ATV, it's a great board for learning hardboots (so it's been my experience thus far), but i'm starting to grow out of it fast. I've folded the nose on it 2 or 3 times now, and have felt a number of other times where it was right on the verge of it, but i released the pressure. i'm not sure if this is because i'm getting better, or bad technique and i'm loading the nose too much when initiating carves. i'm not riding in powder either, so i don't think it has much to do with the snow conditions.

[Jrobb]

current boots i've been using so far: Suzukas 29

board and waist width: ATV 161 with 23.4cm width

angles: ~ 52f/48r +/- 3* since TD2s don't give you an exact number and sort of just spin freely...

Cool, was that your preferred angles or was that necessary to fit the boots on without boot out?

The ATV sounds like a sweet ride. I'm going to try to demo one next season when they come back to town...if they do it again.

J

[wvrocks]

I'm riding 55/50 on a Donek Axis 177 with size 29 boots. TD2 stepins. The waist is 21.5. I could probably go more shallow but I'm comfortable at those angles.

[Michael_A]

Hi,

Blade 180 is 23.5 wide.

I ride a Volkl Cross which is 25 wide. My Mondo 30s are at 50/45 with no overhang.

Michael

[boostertwo]

I've 29.5 boots, and ride hardboot setups from 19.5cm to 21cm in the waist. Stance angles in the high to mid-60s.

I've used narrower boards (18cm, Skwal) and have found that higher stance angles limit both range of motion and the strength of steering movements (the ones used to pivot the board).

Of course, on a hardboot setup you're usually looking to rip high performance carved turns--without pivoting the board much at all. If I'm staying on groomers I find I can ride narrower boards, (with angles as high as low 70s) and make the necessary adjustments to my movements to blast arcs. For me, narrower boards work better for quick edge-to-edge transitions on steep, icy slopes.

<a href="http://tinypic.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i9.tinypic.com/2rcxys1.jpg" border="0" alt="Jeff Smith, Vail, Colorado"></a>

Riding with lower angles is better anytime I need to make shorter skidded turns (bumps, trees, steep chutes) and when there is a lot of resistance to pivoting the board (deep, dense snow). I'll usually ride fat boards and softies in those situations.

[Kimo]

Kimo, that's fine but what was the width of the board if you remember? I'm trying to figure out the minimum width I could possibly fit with 29's and between 50 and 30 deg. Currently I run 35/30 on a 25cm board, but want to find out how narrow I can go at lowest possible angles.

J

The handy dandy Donek spec sheet says the Blade 180 waist width is 23.5cm.

[RCrobar]

Couple things to consider:

You mentioned boot out and the wider Donek Blade, because of this I will assume you intend to lay out a few Euro-Carves. In order to do this the approximate maximum your board can turned up on edge, in relation to the snow, is 84 degrees. Any further than this and the sidecut radius tends to kick out. The 84 degree means that your rear foot can have a very slight overhang (heel and toe) and not 'boot out.' Your front foot should not be an issue.

I also remember a post by Bob Jenny (co-designer of the TD2) that stated a rider can turn and angulate, using what many call the race inspired Bomber style, only so much. I don't remember that angle he stated that the board could tip over, but it was much less that 84 degrees. Because of this the TD2 did not attempted to make the toe bail shorter, so boot out may be an issue. If you use step ins this is not an issue, this is also less of an issue if the snow is really soft. On hard snow this is definitely something to consider if you are into low angles, Euro carves and TD2 standards.

I ride a mondo point 28.5 boot with Standard toe bail bindings. With an F2 Standard toe bail binding, very short toe lever, I need a 23.1cm wide board sidecut to allow me to run a rear binding angle of 46 degrees and not boot out when the board is tipped over to approximately 84 degrees. Your boot should be 1 cm longer than mine, this would lead me to believe you need a 23.5 to 23.8 cm wide board to run your rear foot at the mid to high 40's and not boot out when doing a Euro Turn.

Boostertwo has made some excellent points as well. I find that the terrain at the resort I go to most often and the snow conditions I see has me carving and skid carving turns, on and off piste, just about every run I take. I personally have found that having the rear binding in the mid 40's to be a good compromise that works excellent for both ECing and skid-carving off piste when using the one board and technique.

Hope it helps a bit.

Rob

[C5 Golfer]

Size 30 boots here. 19.5 - 25.5 wide boards.

My 2 cents worth is this. Depends on you and your riding style and preference. I remember many years ago when I bought my Arbor Munoz 170, 25 wide board. The dealer said I need a Arbor Wide board, and I asked why since all I had rode is 25 or narrower boards. He said with my size 30/12 US feet a wide will ride much better. So I demo'd one one day when Arbor/REI had a demo tent up. One ride down and I could not wait to get it back to the tent - terrible suggestion that I must have a wide board, Edge to edge was about as slow as molasses on that groomed trail. Later I saw a guy that just loved the Wide board and he was a size 11 foot. I normally now ride a 19.5 wide board – the Volkl RT 178 or the Hot Blast 178 and then for my all mountain cruiser my 21.5 wide Prior 4WD 179. All three of those are a wonderful ride any day.

[Jrobb]

Excellent info so far guys. I am getting closer to finding a range for me to look at, I think 20-23 or 24. Only reason is really I'm having most difficulty getting used to the high angles mid 40's and up. This is probalby just exacerbated by trying to run them on a rather wide board...correct assumtption?

I'm looking at cheap entries to carving boards and one currently being eyed is 18cm. I'm guessing even though I'm not fully comfy at higher angles yet...and the ECing is merely by accident for now:freak3:, the narrower board will be less overwhealming at the necessary angles I'd be running when up on edge. Does this sound right?

J

[boostertwo]

...Only reason is really I'm having most difficulty getting used to the high angles mid 40's and up. This is probalby just exacerbated by trying to run them on a rather wide board...correct assumtption?J

Are you saying that you are mounting your bindings with high stance angles on a wide board? If they are mounted so that your toes and heels are not quite reaching the edge, you'll find it very difficult to create and adjust edge angle.

...I'm looking at cheap entries to carving boards and one currently being eyed is 18cm. I'm guessing even though I'm not fully comfy at higher angles yet...and the ECing is merely by accident for now:freak3:, the narrower board will be less overwhealming at the necessary angles I'd be running when up on edge. Does this sound right?

While you could certainly learn to rip high performance arcs on a narrow (18cm) board, if you're just starting out I'd recommend considering a slightly wider board (at least 19.5cm-21cm). It'll allow you better lateral balance, stronger pivoting movements when you want to skid, and better floatation (but not by much) in deeper snow.

<img src="http://i12.tinypic.com/2n9x7js.jpg" border="0" alt="Jeff Smith, Vail, Colorado">

Mi dos centavos.

B-2

[Jrobb]

Booster, Yeah I started with them at 55/50 and finally found comfort and control at 35/30. But even Heelsides were a bear. Toesides were butter smooth so I actually just bought the BTS with blue springs to soften the heelside and still maintain a little flex. I will have to play around with these a bit should be here in a few days.

I was thinking 19-23 too so I may pass on the board or not...dunno right now. Something wider may slide along. This weekend I should have some decent cond. to practice in and dial in more adjustments.

J

[Steve Dold]

Another data point: My board is 23.5 wide and I use size 28 AF-600s with TD2 step-ins. My angles are 55/50 which puts the boots right at the edge of the board. This means that the tip of the toe of the boot is right over the edge, and the back of the boot (about where the lean adjuster is) is right over the heel edge. It's a pretty slow board edge to edge, though.

[Jrobb]

well, looks like I'm looking for 20-23cm then.

J

[RCrobar]

Hey Jrobb

C5 Golfer nailed it when he said, “Depends on you and your riding style and preference.”

A few more thoughts:

In a perfect hardbooter world a rider would:

1) Get boots fitted by a pro fitter so that they are as short as possible.

2) Decide on step-ins vs toe lever bindings, then determine the overall length of your boot binding interface.

3) Set up your bindings to YOUR preferred stance angles.

4) The FINAL step would be to get a board that is the exact width to match your boots and bindings.

IMHO, your stance preference and boot size determines the board width, rather than the board width determining your stance.

The problem with your situation, it seems, is that you are still learning what stance angles work best for you. The other problem is damn near any stance angle will work, depending on what you are after, as B2 explained.

Many riders have spent YEARS dialing their stance in. The dirty little secret of hardbooting is what a pain in the a$$ it is to find the set up that works for you: stance angles, stance width, bias on the board, boot canting, binding canting vs flat, forward lean, what springs to put on your boots ... on and on, etc.! It takes a lot of work to find ‘your’ preference for stance.

Cheers

Rob

[Jrobb]

I'm starting to feel that's right.

I guess I'll just have to experiment and demo when I can. I have yet to get on a real carve board so I may be fine on the higher angles and narrower board, I just can't tell now since my board now is wide.

Great, just when I thought I was in the clear.

j

[RCrobar]

OK, couple more thoughts:

1. Any board can be carved.

Don't get hung up on the idea that you have to go out and get a 'real' carving board. Any board can be carved and you can learn to carve on any board. Soft or hard boots, wide or narrow, low or high angles ... all will work! You can learn a lot with the gear you have, before moving to a much more efficient carving board.

2. What feeling do you prefer when riding?

Do you prefer having the feeling that your feet are: A) Side by side or B) One in front of the other?

Here is what I mean by this. Side by Side is the lower angle stance angle feeling you get *similar* to a surfer or a skateboarder riding a half pipe. One in front of the other is the higher stance angle feeling you get *similar* to a slalom water skier or slalom skateboarder going though a tight set of cones.

The stance angles that will give you this side by side or one in front of the other feeling is a very personal thing. The feeling you prefer may be a result of past experience, ie- you have surfed for 20 years or you have skied for 20 years.

A suggestion.

1. Decide what feeling you prefer when riding/carving.

2. Zero in on stance angles that give you this feeling.

3. Then decide on the width of the board you need.

As always with hard boots, these are highly biased opinions which may require a flame suit ... that I hope help.

Rob

[Jrobb]

Well, my preference is softboot angles...rode mostly the same for over 15 years. But I think I kind of went into hardbooting thinking I would just be eliminating boot out...and I'd have more control. WRONG. I have to relearn many aspects of my technique. I'm going to ride my 4807 since it carves the easiest of the two boards I can put plates on this weekend and just get used to how things are. Just received my BTS so mounting them tonight...hoping it will smooth out the heelsides and not take to much away from toeside.

I gotta say, I had watched all the videos I could find before riding trying to pick up on the different motions and thought "that should be easy enough" Wrong again, I have a lot more respect now for the smooth carvers I was watching. Enlightening to say the least.

As far as the board size, mine will do for now. I may step up to something else next season after a demo or two.

J