Dr D Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 It's when your upright that the twisting will be doing the damage... Happens to 99% of us... after so many months not riding and all of the sudden you're working muscles you haven't used for a while....I found if there is no swelling use heat... if there is swelling use ice.. Best see a doctor or Physiotherapist to see where the problem is... Physio's helped mine so much it's ridiculous... I don't get pain anymore after I ride... even after a solid 10 days... well unless I fall over and hit something.....:o actually rotation combined with forward or lateral bending is the worst as far as a disc goes. a day of compact riding would irritate and inflame causing swelling in the intervertebral foraminae (the holes where the nerves wxit the spine) when you stand back upright the holes close down leaving less space for the swelling. This (the swelling part) doesn't happen in a normal joint. It happens only in a joint that has lost its normal Range of Motion. if you lie on your back and pull your knees to your chest the IVF's open creating more space and some relief, just a way to prove the point. The above mantra on heat and ice is correct except that in this situation the swelling is internal to the muscle layers and is not readily noticeable to the casual observer. that is why ice is recommended for the spine instead of heat. IT is difficult to teach this stuff in thread bites so if any one has questions feel free to get in touch with me. I would be happy to have a conversation in more depth on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Oh about a week back...Thanks for the replies, all. Dr D, Yeah, I'm an idiot paying later. I have only been using drugs and heat. I'll get on the ice program. Not hard to make in Boston as it's like 10 degrees out. What do you mean by "getting it fixed?" Any cutting involved? I would take a referall if you have a NE sawbones list. My HMO says "Oh it hurts when you do that?...." getting it fixed by a competent rehab oriented chiropractor. the joint has to be restored to its normal range of motion and the soft tissue structures around it have to be rehabed to make it a permanent fix. this takes time but is low risk and low cost compared to surgery and very worth it. referrals Lucky you choices . the Boston area is home to some really good ones. Dr John Parker Hanover Dr Paul Milone Marblehead Dr Juan Ferry Weymouth Dr William Harris Weymouth Dr Mallen orient heights chiropractic East Boston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 You can start with a chiropractor, just make sure to divide whatever he tells you by a factor of 5 at least... If he suggest 3 treatments a week, take only 1 to begin with, etc...And make these muscles work on regular basis with some tough basic exercises... Basic means no machines, only free weights and your own body weight... Hmmmmm lets see ignore what the professional with ten years of education on the subject has to say and yeah do it my way?!?!???? Please research and find a good competent practitioner and then do exactly what they tell you to do. Nothing is more frustrating as a Doctor than to have a patient ignore your recomendations and then blame you for their lack of progress. :smashfrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexeyga Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Hmmmmm lets see ignore what the professional with ten years of education on the subject has to say and yeah do it my way?!?!????Please research and find a good competent practitioner and then do exactly what they tell you to do. Nothing is more frustrating as a Doctor than to have a patient ignore your recomendations and then blame you for their lack of progress. :smashfrea I see your point and feel free to prove me wrong, but chiropractors make money from treatments, so more treatments they do, more money they get... Excuse me my skepticism, originally I came from a society were medical care was free and was 100 times better than what we have to pay for, so I have real issues believing these really honest "specialist" who's salary is a direct function of treatments number... But that's just me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I see your point and feel free to prove me wrong, but chiropractors make money from treatments, so more treatments they do, more money they get... Excuse me my skepticism, originally I came from a society were medical care was free and was 100 times better than what we have to pay for, so I have real issues believing these really honest "specialist" who's salary is a direct function of treatments number... But that's just me... alexeyga, you are right, it is way better to go to a regular doctor and take the pills the doctor prescribes. i am very sure that the trip to florida to golf from the drug rep wont sway the doctor on what to prescribe at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexeyga Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 alexeyga, you are right, it is way better to go to a regular doctor and take the pills the doctor prescribes. i am very sure that the trip to florida to golf from the drug rep wont sway the doctor on what to prescribe at all. Who was talking about regular docs? I have less believe in pills than I have in healing teas... And I've never said that chiropractors are paid for nothing, I'm paying one my-self on a monthly basis, but I'm just more than skeptic about number of treatments they prescribe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 alexeyga, you are right, it is way better to go to a regular doctor and take the pills the doctor prescribes. i am very sure that the trip to florida to golf from the drug rep wont sway the doctor on what to prescribe at all. And you lecture ME about respect????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I see your point and feel free to prove me wrong, but chiropractors make money from treatments, so more treatments they do, more money they get... Excuse me my skepticism, originally I came from a society were medical care was free and was 100 times better than what we have to pay for, so I have real issues believing these really honest "specialist" who's salary is a direct function of treatments number... But that's just me... A recent study of patients under long term "wellness" based chiropractic care for longer than five years revealed that they spent 35% of the national average on health care. To clarify, that means that including what they paid their chiropractor and all other health care they still spent 65% less than their peers on healthcare. higher levels of patient satisfaction etc as well. It is all perspective I guess. some noninsurance practices are now charging per case rather than per visit. In terms of value for the dollar its not even a contest. I routinely see an entire car wreck case for less than the initial ER visit would have been for the same case. And for the record Chiropractic in Canada is at least 20 yrs behind the U.S. in most cases. No doubt a byproduct of the socialist approach:barf: I am in no way intending to malign any particular DC or even the profession with that statement its more a commentary on the laws they have to deal with and the professions governing body up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 alexeyga, you are right, it is way better to go to a regular doctor and take the pills the doctor prescribes. i am very sure that the trip to florida to golf from the drug rep wont sway the doctor on what to prescribe at all.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Who was talking about regular docs? I have less believe in pills than I have in healing teas... And I've never said that chiropractors are paid for nothing, I'm paying one my-self on a monthly basis, but I'm just more than skeptic about number of treatments they prescribe... If you are a long term patient who has been under care for a while monthly visits are certainly adequate. A new patient should count on anywhere from 12 to 36 visits of up to three times a week to get to a stable point where the monthly visits would make a difference. Most patients come with a problem that has been there for years and its unrealistic to expect a total tissue remodel in a few visits. your body is doing the healing not the chiropractor. It takes time. Bones don't heal overnite when they are broken and neither do ligaments and muscles etc. It requires the most valuable asset we possess. TIME. the Chiro just removes the interference and monitors the healing process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 A recent study of patients under long term "wellness" based chiropractic care for longer than five years revealed that they spent 35% of the national average on health care. To clarify, that means that including what they paid their chiropractor and all other health care they still spent 65% less than their peers on healthcare. higher levels of patient satisfaction etc as well. It is all perspective I guess. some noninsurance practices are now charging per case rather than per visit. In terms of value for the dollar its not even a contest. I routinely see an entire car wreck case for less than the initial ER visit would have been for the same case. With all due respect, got a source for that one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I subscribe to a number of journals give me a day or two to find it and I will have it up here for you. An average car wreck case in my office totals somewhere between $1200 and $1800 One MRI is often more than that at the ER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I subscribe to a number of journals give me a day or two to find it and I will have it up here for you. An average car wreck case in my office totals somewhere between $1200 and $1800 One MRI is often more than that at the ER Cool! Thanks! No hurry. I am curious to see what they use as the "average" health care cost and what they think drives it....... The ambulance alone costs more than $1200-1800, sometimes as much as $3000!!!! And, Yes, I would like to see who sponsored/did the article. If you wanna get it to me off-line that would be ok, no need for this to go anymore off topic than it already is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipstar Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I subscribe to a number of journals give me a day or two to find it and I will have it up here for you. An average car wreck case in my office totals somewhere between $1200 and $1800 One MRI is often more than that at the ER surely that would be part of the reason why? People with major injuries and cancer/expensive healthcare budgets may be in hospital for long periods, hence if chiropractors cannot offer treatment in those facilities, those people would be excluded from chiropractor treatment? This would seem to be the case that the people who are fairly healthy and well get long term chiropractor treatment, and thus spend 35% of the national average, while the elderly, chronically sick, terminally ill and others (e.g. someone with lung cancer, someone with advanced HIV/AIDS, lukhemia) cost more....because they are actually really sick. I am all for alternative medicine; but I get VERY skeptical of any journals that claim cost savings unless i can read the whole thing, or at a miunimum the abstract. I also am exceedingly skeptical of most academic research anyway; for marketing the usual test is 95% confidence; that's a 1 in 20 of getting things random and then attributing it to some theory; when we consider that there are plenty of theories out there, would seem a fair few must actually be wrong! At least medical research is subject to higher proof, I am told (and also told that some are pretty dodgy there as well, by a researcher from some med uni. Skatha; you must have some comment on this, you are a doctor and must read all these articles too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 ITs a possibility certainly. however we don't just treat healthy patients. The really sick ones are just comanaged. I personally take care of several terminal cancer patients, I have two with brain stem injuries, one with MS several with parkinson's etc. they may be recieving other types of care particularly in the cancer cases. Anecdotally in my office the MS and parkinsons remitted and are currently holding that status for longer than average times. One of my cancer patients has been dx with liver cancer for well over a year now. there are also studies showing immune response to adjustment, increased t-cell count in HIV post chiropractic, etc etc. Interestingly enough much of the research that we find helpful in understanding what we do is done not by chiropractic researchers but by medical researchers. The concept that the nervous system controls the immune system is a relatively new idea in the research community but it bears out what chiropractors have been saying for 100 years. the piece in question discovered the nerve connections in immune tissue and then studied what happened to immune response when the nerves were severed. It ceased. there is no doubt tons of research that needs to be done. The research that is being done needs to be read objectively and researchers need to be held to a high standard. Try reading pharma research and look at the studies that are discontinued because the desired result isn't attained. Research is going to the highest bidder in this country for sure. It is definitely worth reading te body of science that exists worldwide for perspective if nothing else:biggthump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 Research is going to the highest bidder in this country for sure. It is definitely worth reading te body of science that exists worldwide for perspective if nothing else:biggthump Coming from the biomedical industry I know all about "studies". It is very difficult to do a true blind study like you would need for this kind of application. So what do you do, have a control group that is treated one way, another group that is treated another. How many variables? Do you have a group that is not treated at all? Ethically how do you justify treating a patient one way because you feel it is better and not treating the others the same way........ How big is you sample group? How long is it carried out? You just don't have the time or money to do it all, so you do what YOU think (another variable) is the "best". I used to dread having to go to the board with results that did not show anything possitive, they would say "how can we use this data to give the results we want". Given this is industry and not health care, but you get the point. I do know we learn more and more everyday, and it is just the tip of the perverbial iceberg if you ask me. I don't care how a person is treated as long as THEY feel it is the best for them and gives them a good quality life. I am glad that insurance companies will pay for alternative health care (as they still call it:rolleyes:)). Kind of levels the playing field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Anecdotal evidence gets a bad rap in my opinion. Particularly in reference to certain types of care. Obviously just because one or two people say they got results doesn't make it so. but, if you are talking about thousands of people shouldn't that carry some weight? Placebo effect is interesting in this context as well. In many studies the placebo was lets say 30-40% effective and the drug was 50-60% effective sometimes the margin is as little as 12% between placebo and test item. If the placebo is that effective and doesn't cause massive heart attack in 5% maybe we need to study why placebo's are effective. If Anecdotal results are in part attributable to placebo effect is that a bad thing? Not in my book! the oath says first do no harm as I remember it. scientific method has been lost along the side of the road to profits somewhere and we need to restructure how research dollars are obtained. If there isn't a body of science that is wholely unbiased we really aren't learning anything we are just deceiving ourselves. That said "Alternative" medicine including Chiropractic helps millions of people each year with or without the research to prove why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Anecdotal evidence gets a bad rap in my opinion. Particularly in reference to certain types of care. Obviously just because one or two people say they got results doesn't make it so. but, if you are talking about thousands of people shouldn't that carry some weight? Placebo effect is interesting in this context as well. In many studies the placebo was lets say 30-40% effective and the drug was 50-60% effective sometimes the margin is as little as 12% between placebo and test item. If the placebo is that effective and doesn't cause massive heart attack in 5% maybe we need to study why placebo's are effective. If Anecdotal results are in part attributable to placebo effect is that a bad thing? Not in my book! the oath says first do no harm as I remember it. scientific method has been lost along the side of the road to profits somewhere and we need to restructure how research dollars are obtained. If there isn't a body of science that is wholely unbiased we really aren't learning anything we are just deceiving ourselves. That said "Alternative" medicine including Chiropractic helps millions of people each year with or without the research to prove why! It is truely sad how hard it is to find GOOD studies these days. You can usually find the bias somewhere (once again, this is industry based not the care side). I used to spend alot of my time picking apart the studies our compeditors sited, it was pretty easy. The sad part is that these were studies out of journals, not industry handouts. Yeah, I was thinking about the placebo earlier. Pretty neat, one study I read said, they think it works because the patient thinks you are doing something and there for they have a positive additude and take care of themselves better (very simplified version). Either way, it's pretty cool! And as far as the last line goes..... The med school someone I know went to started a wholeistic (sp?) treatment program when they started (8 yrs ago), it was a separate path than the other classes. It has become VERY popular and is no longer a separate path. Quite a few of the classes are now required by all. I think that's pretty cool to see. I just think its funny they call it "alternative" when it has definitly joined the mainstream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 It is truely sad how hard it is to find GOOD studies these days. You can usually find the bias somewhere (once again, this is industry based not the care side). I used to spend alot of my time picking apart the studies our compeditors sited, it was pretty easy. The sad part is that these were studies out of journals, not industry handouts.Yeah, I was thinking about the placebo earlier. Pretty neat, one study I read said, they think it works because the patient thinks you are doing something and there for they have a positive additude and take care of themselves better (very simplified version). Either way, it's pretty cool! And as far as the last line goes..... The med school someone I know went to started a wholeistic (sp?) treatment program when they started (8 yrs ago), it was a separate path than the other classes. It has become VERY popular and is no longer a separate path. Quite a few of the classes are now required by all. I think that's pretty cool to see. I just think its funny they call it "alternative" when it has definitly joined the mainstream. absolutely and a recent study showed:ices_ange that there are now twice as many visits to "alternative health care" provider's than to mainstream providers hows that for an oxymoron? Its a consumer driven market like any other and you will see a big shift over the next ten years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 I've been following this thread loosely... Considering the title, and without going into any of the rights/wrongs/goods/bads/pros/cons of it, I thought maybe I'll just point out that I'm going to the chiropractor after work today. Never been to see a chiropractor, but a week and a half ago I folded my nose and landed on my back and snapped my head to the ground, and then again just last sunday I nosed into a mogul or something and ended up cartwheeling off of my noggin. I've always lived with a little bit of discomfort in my back every once in a while, but it was very managable. After those crashes I think it's best that I see SOMEBODY about it. So maybe I'll report my findings when I get back. Current standings: Right now my neck and back is a bit stiff. Kinda normal for me. About halfway down I have a sensitive spot. First noticed it when I picked up an MSC catalog (big book). I get a really tight muscle between my back and my shoulder, but right now it's not bothering me. It feels like if I can crack my back good then I'd be alright, but as much as I move I can't get it to crack the way I want it to. I'll report more when I get back. Edit: About to leave work. That twinge is really bothering me now. It hurts when I turn left and it hurts when I slouch or bend down. I kinda feel stupid walking around with my chest held so high, but it's probably good for me to be doing it anyways. see ya later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Well, Its the next morning. You couldn't prove it by me that he did anything. He was an old guy (No offense meant to any of you who are close to his age... He is 72). He's been a chiropractor for 30 years next month. His wrists cracked more than my back did. He was a real nice guy though. There was alot of poking on my back. Not hard. And a little pushing. Also not hard. To tell you the truth I think that the table they put you on has just as much to do with it as anything. That was wierd! Anyways, at the end he told me it'd be $27. I told him that I still hurt. I know, I didn't expect it to be a miracle, it just seemed like he didn't do much. He told me that it was enflamed (what is enflamed, I don't know, he never told me much about what he was doing) and that I should put some ice on it for a few minutes a couple times a day. Then he told me that they'd be there if I needed them again. He didn't tell me I should come back once every two weeks or twice a week or whatever. And the 27bucks is covered. I guess I should trust him and trust that he did something. So now I'm just trying not to use my back much. Trying not to enflame that muscle or whatever hurts back there. I'll be putting ice on it at home. Just takin it easy and hopin I guess. Luckily I'm busy doing something other than snowboarding this weekend, otherwise I might want to go and hurt it more. Anyways, thats my review of the chiropractor. Instant gratification? No, but it felt good to actually see somebody about it. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 If that's all he gave you was a pop and a promise you need to find another one. The best you'll get from that is minor short term relief. If you really expect results find someone who will do an exam and take a film if its necessary etc. IF its not specific he's just manipulating random joints for the endorphin release. the joint is no doubt inflamed and the ice is a good suggestion but its a temporary fix. give me an idea where you are and whats close by town wise and I will try and find you a good one. Otherwise ask where they went to school what there treatment goal is, Ask them to explain a subluxation to you, Ask if they offer wellness care. If any of these questions makes them stutter try somewhere else. good colleges PALMER PARKER LIFE SHERMAN Northwestern is a coin toss NYCC is a coin toss I don't recomend any of the others Ask about technique if they name one specifically that's a good thing If they name 6 they probably aren't great at any one of them. Its ok if they use one primarily and offer services in one or two others. any technique name that ends in package is 6+ techniques. Good ones are Gonstead, Activator, thompson, cox etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 If that's all he gave you was a pop and a promise you need to find another one. The best you'll get from that is minor short term relief. If you really expect results find someone who will do an exam and take a film if its necessary etc. IF its not specific he's just manipulating random joints for the endorphin release. the joint is no doubt inflamed and the ice is a good suggestion but its a temporary fix. give me an idea where you are and whats close by town wise and I will try and find you a good one. Otherwise ask where they went to school what there treatment goal is, Ask them to explain a subluxation to you, Ask if they offer wellness care. If any of these questions makes them stutter try somewhere else. good colleges PALMER PARKER LIFE SHERMAN Northwestern is a coin toss NYCC is a coin toss I don't recomend any of the others Ask about technique if they name one specifically that's a good thing If they name 6 they probably aren't great at any one of them. Its ok if they use one primarily and offer services in one or two others. any technique name that ends in package is 6+ techniques. Good ones are Gonstead, Activator, thompson, cox etc Good advice, you should also be comfortable with the person as a person (Does that make sense?). Find someone YOU like on a personally level. It helps. Coming for the medical side (not me, just a close friend), it may also be a good idea to find someone younger, they are "usually" more on top of the latest and greatest. It is a tough call though, do you go for youth and education or age and experience........... D might have better insight on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 ideally old age experience and continuing education. Some of the older ones get a little set in their ways and don't grow and develop. they call it a practice for a reason. I would pick someone who had been in practice a while and who had a track record of followup studies in their chosen technique. Many technique websites can give you referrals to DC's who regularly attend seminars etc. The colleges are now teaching "packages" for technique which boils down to a little bit of this and a little bit of that. It is really up to the Dr to pick one and become proficient through followup seminars and ongoing education. I recommend the find a doctor or referral feature on Gonstead.com and Gonsteadseminar.com to locate good ones in your area. This is not a complete list obviously but it is a good place to start. If none are close to you call the closest one and ask them for a referral in your area. Activator.com has a similiar feature and DC's have to be certified to be listed on that one. I can always help if you are having trouble locating one that works for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano Posted February 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 I've been sitting on a pilates ball in my office for almost 2 weeks, moving from console to console and doing occational situps with my feet hooked under my desk. I've been taking about 800 mg of advil a day and ice pack for 20 minutes at night. Back pain is pretty much gone. It only feels a little achy when I'm on the part of my nightly run that's on a tilted sandy beach, but that's it. The GREAT news is that I went riding for last sunday on my freecarving setup on hero fake snow and had NO PAIN WHATSOEVER during or after. It's possible that some of the damage was caused by riding a freeride board at low angles on 2 previous outings. I'm sticking to the carving setup unless we get snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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