EC tech tread - NO FLAMING

[BlueB]

Ok, there's quite a bit of riding tech discussion, but when it comes to EC, we always end up arguing. This tread is for those who want to discuss in constructive way, so if you feel like flaming please start another tread...

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I try to ride and mix all styles/techniques - more fun. It wouldn't be complete without a bit of EC.

To clarify, I take that EC is any type of turn where board is almost vertical and good part of the body is dragging or floating just above the snow.

I'm not a master, but I tried and sort of can do it on variety of boards, from soft to medium stiff and from 25 to 18.5 waist, and from 10 to 12 scr. Probably with far less style and grace than it should be done. Also in few different manners: EC-Swoard "push-pull" manner, Pure Carving "bomb-the-nose-one hand on snow" style, or just dropping into the turn hard and inclinated without actual dragging. I find it easiest on 20-21.5 waist boards and 50-60 angles. No videos/photos so far. Ski boots used.

Now my issues, all suggestions appreciated:

1) My toe sides are way better then heel. I can really lay it over and stay for a while and recover/transition to heel. Contrary, on heel side I can just touch down for a brief moment. Anything prolonged leads to wash out.

2) Heel side I can not do EC-Swoard style, only Jorg style or hard inclination. Any drills to fix this?

Furthermore, flatter my angles, less likly I am to even attempt heel EC-Swoard style?

3) Sometimes I drop too hard into heel side and hit hip/bum, which results in edge release.

4) On sub-19 waisted boards I can not EC-Swoard, but have to apply the other 2 styles.

5) When I go hard EC-Swoard full drag, toe side, on my belowed Generics (19.7mm, 12m, stiff flex), the board would often jump and change the track and engage again, just after crossing the fall line. It would still let me finish the turn and transition, but it sheds a lot of speed and the trench doesn't look nice...

Ok, let's hear it...

[Istvan]

Just keep on practicing.... ;) BTW, most probably ski boots are not the best for EC....

Instead of giving you an advice on the techniqe (you can read many threads and stuff on the EC Forum) I would have only one suggestion: try it on a very steep, hard-pack, well groomed and wide slope. That's the kind of slope where you can really practice laying it down and linking it to the next one...

As for the techniqe: instead of reading too much of the intellectual masturbation, just watch the videos on the EC site a couple of times in slow motion and pause it sometimes to really see and understand what they do and how they do it.... it helps a lot.

Cheers

[paappraiser]

. Ski boots used.

Ok, let's hear it...

ECrs have been modifiying the boots to be very flexy.. I would see if that helps. Cutting tungs, bts type things. Try it Walk mode? I had a instructor have me ride with it in walk mode.. Since that I got some rabs now the bts..Ill probally put my rabs up for sale..

Once the mechanics are in the brain, I think you got it for 98% of the time.

[Rob Stevens]

Come on, BlueB... You're at the hill almost every day and in a snow school, no less and NO VIDEO?

Shoot some and I'll try to help you out. Otherwise, it's just guessing and your respondants will be tripping over each other, trying to "imagine" what your problem is.

I do agree about the boots. though. Softer is better, for this kind of turn.

[D-Sub]

Boris

Id highly recommend the EC site for this, man. Only input I would have, when you say you cant get laid out heel turns is...maybe its just "fear?" Not that youre a chicken, but just cant quite commit to the idea of laying "back" and down?

[Kent]

I didn't read 100% of your post, but it would be kinda foolish to ride the EC style without an EC-specific board.

That's the key. You'll need a wider board with little sidecut depth in order for your board not to hook-up.....

See....I replied without flaming on EC!!!!

Buy a Sword and things will change.

K

[BlueB]

Thanks for all replies!

Istvan, internet forums are all about intelectual... well you said it. As for practice more, I agree. I'm generally good at learning by myself, just by trying things out. It's just my feeling there's quite a few Bombers fooling around with EC, so we coud discuss it a bit here. It's my faworite forum and I will rather bring it up here that join another one.

Papa, let's leave the boots out of equation for now, I shouldn't have mentioned them. I'm most comfortable with those and they flex more then an average ski boot.

Rob, I wish I was on the hill almost every day... I get 2-3 days or half-days a week. I have a regular job and ski teaching is for fun.

You are right about video/pics - precious. As funny as it might sound, I really have only one short clip of myself on soft boots (avatar) from 3 years ago, and Dave filmed me once this year on Renntiger in non-EC action. He still owes me a CD with it. I'll try to do something about it in 2nd half of Jan - teaching this weekend and on CASI 1 course next weekend.

D, you might be onto something with fear factor. I know that I ride trees very poorly due to fear. As a "visual" person I dislike when I can not see what I'm doing - like heel side...

Kent, I take that your reply is not to serious.

Keep them rolling...

[RCrobar]

Hey Boris

Interesting and complicated questions, especially when two carving techniques are applied to laying a carve completely over.

My suggestion would be to NOT think of ECing as a different and separate technique, as it really is not. Think of ECing, regardless of the technique you are using, simply as a turn (generally speaking).

I would recommend taking a few runs on a flat, then moderate and finally a very steep run; performing your standard carving technique. Regardless of the pitch do your best to maintain the same technique, DON'T think about getting low or dragging your body. As the runs get progressively steeper, your turns will get lower and lower. Make sure your turns are a completed 'C' shape on both the flat and steeper runs.

IMHO one of two things is happening with your heelside turn: 1) An error in your technique, which is magnified when trying a heelside EC turn (need to see a video). 2) you are thinking too much about getting low, which results in not thinking about or changing your standard carving technique.

I feel technique is more important than equipment, but gear and settings are also key. The range of motion (the ankle and knee bending) in ski boots sounds questionable to me as well.

Check out this link:

http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a67954/index.html

Cheers

Rob

[r_starr]

BlueB, 2 years ago I was probably about where you are in the EC learning curve so I definitely recognize all of those issues. I too am still learning so take what I say FWIW, in the event there are others who give advice contradicting mine, please ignore mine and listen to them. Here are some ideas:

1) My toe sides are way better then heel. I can really lay it over and stay for a while and recover/transition to heel. Contrary, on heel side I can just touch down for a brief moment. Anything prolonged leads to wash out.

2) Heel side I can not do EC-Swoard style, only Jorg style or hard inclination. Any drills to fix this?

Furthermore, flatter my angles, less likly I am to even attempt heel EC-Swoard style?

For me the key to the EC heelside is entering the turn with deep knee-bend and putting on extreme rotation; for an EC heelside I don't think that you can rotate too much. Here's a drill. When crossing the fall-line, bend knees as much as you can, turn your neck to look over your shoulder, rotate, aim to land on your forearm. Please go slow and be very careful with this as if the rotation isn't sufficient your forearm won't be aligned with the direction of travel and you risk pulling your arm back. Try to get the trailing glove around and on the snow, if you can get your back hand on the snow then you know you're rotated. Practice this drill without trying to get up and link the next turn. Also you can do this drill whenever you want to stop and rest. Don't worry about the PUSH part of push/pull for now. This is a drill Peter Vu gave me, I hope I related it exactly right.

3) Sometimes I drop too hard into heel side and hit hip/bum, which results in edge release.

I think pivoting off the hip is a normal when starting out, once you get a better feel for the balance you'll skip the hip contact, your contact points will be the edge(duh) and skimming lightly on your forearm. Pull the legs in as far as you can to start the turn (the pull of push/pull) and you'll be close to the piste, that way there won't be much of a drop. I spent lots of hours bouncing off my heelside hip. It was a great day when another carver (thanks Matt Dodge!) clued me in on the Burton Red Impact Shorts. That saved me a lot of pain and I found I could be aggressive about getting my hip down without worrying about getting stabbed with a death-cookie. I used shoe-goo to keep the pants alive.

4) On sub-19 waisted boards I can not EC-Swoard, but have to apply the other 2 styles.

It's easier to EC on a wider board. I have to ride my rock board with 60/60 angles and while I can make the same EC turns I find the balance more difficult.

5) When I go hard EC-Swoard full drag, toe side, on my belowed Generics (19.7mm, 12m, stiff flex), the board would often jump and change the track and engage again, just after crossing the fall line. It would still let me finish the turn and transition, but it sheds a lot of speed and the trench doesn't look nice...

I had this same issue, a forward weight-shift/more pressure to the nose took care of it.

Rob2

[Rob Stevens]

I'll reinforce some of what's been said:

-Start be going across the fall line and finish every turn across the fall line. In the Opus vids, it's apparent how round their turns are.

- In the traverse, stay low, using the knees and ankles (In your CASI manual, you'll see this as like an edge change in down-unweighting). As you turn for the fall line and apex, you will extend ACROSS the snow. The feeling is one of pushing the dragged hand and your head down the hill, before the rest of you. *I know you don't want to talk about boots, but unless your ski boots are very soft, they won't easily give up the ankle mobility required to get low, without bending at the waist. I even find it easier to toe EC in my softboots (30 to -3). With the splay, I can squat very low to start.

-It's obvious that RCrobar is the go-to guy on this topic. I agree that you should be progressive in getting closer to the snow, but eventually, you'll have to give'r. As inclining is only effective to a point, then you fall. Just remember: LOW in the traverses, extend OUT, ACROSS THE SNOW to the apex, come back to your board VIA THE SAME METHOD AND watch Opus 5 over and over. There is also a rather painful lesson given by Patrice or Jaques on YouTube somewhere, linked out of Bomber. The verbal part of the lesson is kinda weak and takes place largely in the beginner area (the weakest part), but his demo is absolutely incredible. Literally, the smoothest thing ever done on snow.

[BlueB]

Thanks guys, excelent and helpfull replys by all 3 Robs (isn't this name coincidence special?). Very nice tech description on RCrobar's site, too!

Yes I can cross under (down unweight) and I think by doing that I succeded on my toe sides before. Maybe I should try to exagerate it on heel side. Early rotation is a good point, somehow I thought that it should be gradual right trough the turn... This morning I played with it a bit, unfortunately on wrong board for conditions (4807, in what's supposed to be dep pow day, but turned out as hero grooming that didn't last for very long). More tomorrow on a better board.

My buddy Pierre showed up today with his Swoard and was willing to let me have a go, but we didn't have hex key to release his bindings...